Clarkson comments on Exige in Sunday Times
Discussion
In the Car Guide in yesterday's ST, JC voted Exige 240R as his thrid choice of recommended sportscar. He was very complimentary but said the skinny front tyres led to understeer and the handling was better once wider tyres were fitted.
Not heard this complaint before so, given mine comes beginning of next week, would appreciate views on whether this is a fair observation and whether anyone has upgraded to bigger tyres to reduce understeer.
Batster
Not heard this complaint before so, given mine comes beginning of next week, would appreciate views on whether this is a fair observation and whether anyone has upgraded to bigger tyres to reduce understeer.
Batster
That is just him getting confused about the results of Elise testing..... which on the S2 does have thinner tyres to give a 'safer' drive.
The 240R (not cup 240 or 220s) comes with the widest rims fitted to date on the exige which give a large front tyre foot print and from extensive track use in mine I can tell you with the Olhlins set right, there is absolutely NO understeer on the car.
The 240R (not cup 240 or 220s) comes with the widest rims fitted to date on the exige which give a large front tyre foot print and from extensive track use in mine I can tell you with the Olhlins set right, there is absolutely NO understeer on the car.
Understeer is such a myth. I have even skinnier tyres on my R and now it has been set up correctly the drift is any way I want it. You can provoke understeer, you can bring the back end round or drive for a nice neutral slide - if you have the guts!
The limit of adhesion is so large that you will not want to go there on a public road. What was interesting is that when Clarkson drove the Exige he never mentioned the problem and when he drove the 111S he understeered all over the place. Kershaw got in and oversteered all over the track.
I cant comment on how good a driver Clarkson is but the Elise / Exige is not a car like an Evo or scooby that you can just get in and drive fast. It has sod all to stop you getting in big trouble, it is you, your car, and after a while a generous dollop of talent you can drive better and better.
Thinking about it, friday night there were 2 exige, 2 111S and an R and we were having fun, I did not see any understeer all night. From any driver.
If you have understeer problems then 1) Modify your style, the car responds to style and input very subtly 2) if the problem persists, check the geo, have it set up by someone who knows what they are doing. The people in the know say that the car isnt properly set up from the factory!
What I find interesting about Clarksons top 3 is the choice of MX5 as number 1?. I have no problem in saying the MX5 is a very good car, but better than a Cateram CSR or a Exige... There is no doubt that the MX5 is the easiest to live with and get cheap sports car giggles but not better than the runners up. If I was sports car shopping, it would not be on my list -at all.
It could be that the lotus need some time to understand and be intuitive with the car. You need time in a Lotus and I dont think he has that.
Or am I just being arrogant in my support of Lotus?
The limit of adhesion is so large that you will not want to go there on a public road. What was interesting is that when Clarkson drove the Exige he never mentioned the problem and when he drove the 111S he understeered all over the place. Kershaw got in and oversteered all over the track.
I cant comment on how good a driver Clarkson is but the Elise / Exige is not a car like an Evo or scooby that you can just get in and drive fast. It has sod all to stop you getting in big trouble, it is you, your car, and after a while a generous dollop of talent you can drive better and better.
Thinking about it, friday night there were 2 exige, 2 111S and an R and we were having fun, I did not see any understeer all night. From any driver.
If you have understeer problems then 1) Modify your style, the car responds to style and input very subtly 2) if the problem persists, check the geo, have it set up by someone who knows what they are doing. The people in the know say that the car isnt properly set up from the factory!
What I find interesting about Clarksons top 3 is the choice of MX5 as number 1?. I have no problem in saying the MX5 is a very good car, but better than a Cateram CSR or a Exige... There is no doubt that the MX5 is the easiest to live with and get cheap sports car giggles but not better than the runners up. If I was sports car shopping, it would not be on my list -at all.
It could be that the lotus need some time to understand and be intuitive with the car. You need time in a Lotus and I dont think he has that.
Or am I just being arrogant in my support of Lotus?
Clarkson is a good presenter but he is, surprisingly for the amount of experience he gets, a pretty poor driver - all testosterone and no feel. I remember that Nurburgring ring girl they had on Top Gear saying his driving style was "funny" 
I have an example of the offending item - the S2 111S that Clarkson slated. If driven like a 50:50 weight distribution car like a BMW then it will gently an predictably understeer (and it did on my first quick bend, as I'd come from a BMW). However, it just requires an understanding of weight transfer and driven sympathetically is absolutely fine. My second fast bend in the Elise was taken totally neutrally. Lotus claim that the S2 actually resists understeer more than the S1 - though I can't vouch for that as I haven't pushed an S1. The skinny tyres at the front of the S2 111S are there to provide grip in the wet, because the front has so little weight over it. The standard tyre for the Elise runs a softer compound at the front to compensate for the lack of width. If driven properly, understeer is not an issue at all.
I have an example of the offending item - the S2 111S that Clarkson slated. If driven like a 50:50 weight distribution car like a BMW then it will gently an predictably understeer (and it did on my first quick bend, as I'd come from a BMW). However, it just requires an understanding of weight transfer and driven sympathetically is absolutely fine. My second fast bend in the Elise was taken totally neutrally. Lotus claim that the S2 actually resists understeer more than the S1 - though I can't vouch for that as I haven't pushed an S1. The skinny tyres at the front of the S2 111S are there to provide grip in the wet, because the front has so little weight over it. The standard tyre for the Elise runs a softer compound at the front to compensate for the lack of width. If driven properly, understeer is not an issue at all.
mush as I agree that Clarksone is no great driver (as admitted by himself) he is still probably better than 99% of the people on this forum.
His comment about the S2 years ago was spot on, they understeer, period.
yes, you can play with the setup to counter some of this, but at the end of the day, the std wheels/tyres/springs/dampers on a S2 will aways understeer, just becuse you *can* flick the back out into a powerslide, does not mean the basic car is not understeery.
Yes, fitting A048R's does go a long way to cutting this down, the std Exige setup (including the 240R) still had a tendancy to understeer when pushed, if they didn't, the crash rate would be way higher than it is now, 99% of drivers out there could not cope with it if it had a pin-sharp front end.
His comment about the S2 years ago was spot on, they understeer, period.
yes, you can play with the setup to counter some of this, but at the end of the day, the std wheels/tyres/springs/dampers on a S2 will aways understeer, just becuse you *can* flick the back out into a powerslide, does not mean the basic car is not understeery.
Yes, fitting A048R's does go a long way to cutting this down, the std Exige setup (including the 240R) still had a tendancy to understeer when pushed, if they didn't, the crash rate would be way higher than it is now, 99% of drivers out there could not cope with it if it had a pin-sharp front end.
scuffham said:
mush as I agree that Clarksone is no great driver (as admitted by himself) he is still probably better than 99% of the people on this forum.
His comment about the S2 years ago was spot on, they understeer, period.
yes, you can play with the setup to counter some of this, but at the end of the day, the std wheels/tyres/springs/dampers on a S2 will aways understeer, just becuse you *can* flick the back out into a powerslide, does not mean the basic car is not understeery.
Yes, fitting A048R's does go a long way to cutting this down, the std Exige setup (including the 240R) still had a tendancy to understeer when pushed, if they didn't, the crash rate would be way higher than it is now, 99% of drivers out there could not cope with it if it had a pin-sharp front end.
In the politest way possible, I disagree totally with your post. Firstly, the 99% of people better than Clarky: About 5-10% of the people on this forum are club racers, like myself, who spend every weekend on the limit and have been doing this for years in a variety of cars, some are even trained ARDS racing instructors. Out of the random people I've ridden with on track days, about 5-10% are of a very good standard, better than Clarkson. As a racer with instructional experience, I can say that in my honest and humble opinion, Clarkson really isn't that good behind the wheel, sorry. None of the Top Gear guys are. What they are are superb presenters and great wordsmiths.
Secondly, the understeer issue. I'm not talking about flicking the car into bends like Gavan Kershaw did on Top Gear, I'm talking about simply managing the weight transfer to neutralise the car - whether under, on or over the limit this will give a satisfying understeer free driving experience. The Elise has amazing handling, and all it takes is a little Physics knowledge to unleash it.
RobM77 said:I agree that Clarkson isn't quite up there with Mansell, Senna and Prost, but beg to differ about your comments on club racers.
In the politest way possible, I disagree totally with your post. Firstly, the 99% of people better than Clarky: About 5-10% of the people on this forum are club racers, like myself, who spend every weekend on the limit and have been doing this for years in a variety of cars, some are even trained ARDS racing instructors. Out of the random people I've ridden with on track days, about 5-10% are of a very good standard, better than Clarkson. As a racer with instructional experience, I can say that in my honest and humble opinion, Clarkson really isn't that good behind the wheel, sorry.
I've been racing on and off for a few years now, and there are very few good drivers out there - most are average at best. The same goes for trackday drivers. Just because you wear a skid-lid and have numbers on your car doesn't make you an expert wheelsmith, just the same way that being a Top Gear presenter doesn't either
scuffham said:
mush as I agree that Clarksone is no great driver (as admitted by himself) he is still probably better than 99% of the people on this forum.
quote]
Not me
[quote=scuffham]His comment about the S2 years ago was spot on, they understeer, period.
yes, you can play with the setup to counter some of this, but at the end of the day, the std wheels/tyres/springs/dampers on a S2 will aways understeer, just becuse you *can* flick the back out into a powerslide, does not mean the basic car is not understeery.
Yes, fitting A048R's does go a long way to cutting this down, the std Exige setup (including the 240R) still had a tendancy to understeer when pushed, if they didn't, the crash rate would be way higher than it is now, 99% of drivers out there could not cope with it if it had a pin-sharp front end.
I agree with the above to a certain extent, but if you look at the way he drove it, he was deliberately provoking understeer to make a point.
IIRC when he reviewed the std S2 Exige he commented on how incredible the levels of grip were (don't remember if there were any specifics on front or rear commented on), and as far as I can tell (especially considering speedyellow's comments), the 240R set-up is even better than standard.
And with all due respect to you for your experience in racing Mr S, I don't think that speedyellow's ability is under any question on this forum from those who've been out with him.
>> Edited by S Works on Monday 20th March 13:05
ehasler said:
In the politest way possible, I disagree totally with your post. Firstly, the 99% of people better than Clarky: About 5-10% of the people on this forum are club racers, like myself, who spend every weekend on the limit and have been doing this for years in a variety of cars, some are even trained ARDS racing instructors. Out of the random people I've ridden with on track days, about 5-10% are of a very good standard, better than Clarkson. As a racer with instructional experience, I can say that in my honest and humble opinion, Clarkson really isn't that good behind the wheel, sorry.
I've been racing on and off for a few years now, and there are very few good drivers out there - most are average at best. The same goes for trackday drivers. Just because you wear a skid-lid and have numbers on your car doesn't make you an expert wheelsmith, just the same way that being a Top Gear presenter doesn't either
I suppose it depends what level you race at. I'm right at the bottom racing a humble Metro, and I'd say out of 20 of us only about 3 or 4 are what I would call 'good' - i.e. doing everything correctly to a standard where they could instruct others. At higher levels that number will generally increase until you get to the top where professionals are present where almost all drivers on the grid are excellent (money doesn't make you a good driver, but most people start at the bottom and work up). However, the standard of Clarky, Hammond and May's driving is not in line with any of these people I've mentioned! They're along with the pretty average trackday goer I'd say.
To prove my point, a friend of mine has owned Caterhams for a while and attends track days reasonably frequently. He's your average track day goer. He bought a good Caterham Roadsport A race car from a front running team and took it to a trackday at Donington National circuit. From his in-car footage I was able to work out his lap times. His best was ten seconds slower than the guy at the back of the grid that year at Donny, in an identical car. QED
Before I sign off I should say that managing weight transfer and slip angles etc is a basic fast driving skill, I would expect most people who've ever been on a track or even just drive performance cars on the road to understand and practise these effects. Perfecting them is to be a great driver - simply doing it is to be competant. Balancing a car is much like balancing a surfboard or snowboard - you carve it through the bends in a balanced state. Now, not all car drivers can do this well because you can get from A to B without doing it. When you learn to surf you spend weeks trying to get it right simply because there's no other option! (no balance - you fall off). 80% of people could probably learn to catch reasonably waves given a week of practise. Likewise, 80% of people could learn to drive well if given the time and instruction - the difference being that your mistakes are obvious on a surf board, but not in a car.
Rob,
I think scuffham is probably closer to the mark than you think. But not entirely accurate.
Clarkson probably IS better than 99% of people on the roads. But mainly because 95% of people on the roads don't really give two hoots. And of the remaining 5%, some are boy-racers, some are inexperienced, some are just not suited to driving. And Clarkson has had a LOT more experience than many enthusiasts.
The PH community probably reflect that remaining 5%. So clarkson only needs to be better than c.3/4 of PH members to hit that 99% mark. If 5-10% of PH members are club-racers (and we'll ASSUME all are better than him), then that still leaves 10-20% of the remaining PH membership who can be better than Clarkson without affecting the accuracy of that comment.
What I WOULD say is that virtually no-one will buy an Exige without being really into their driving, and hence being in that remaining 5%. To that extent, you have a point - most of the 5% have the ability to 'learn' a car, while I feel Clarkson's comments tend to be aimed at mainstream drivers, not the committed enthusiast.
I think scuffham is probably closer to the mark than you think. But not entirely accurate.
Clarkson probably IS better than 99% of people on the roads. But mainly because 95% of people on the roads don't really give two hoots. And of the remaining 5%, some are boy-racers, some are inexperienced, some are just not suited to driving. And Clarkson has had a LOT more experience than many enthusiasts.
The PH community probably reflect that remaining 5%. So clarkson only needs to be better than c.3/4 of PH members to hit that 99% mark. If 5-10% of PH members are club-racers (and we'll ASSUME all are better than him), then that still leaves 10-20% of the remaining PH membership who can be better than Clarkson without affecting the accuracy of that comment.
What I WOULD say is that virtually no-one will buy an Exige without being really into their driving, and hence being in that remaining 5%. To that extent, you have a point - most of the 5% have the ability to 'learn' a car, while I feel Clarkson's comments tend to be aimed at mainstream drivers, not the committed enthusiast.
havoc said:
Rob,
I think scuffham is probably closer to the mark than you think. But not entirely accurate.
Clarkson probably IS better than 99% of people on the roads. But mainly because 95% of people on the roads don't really give two hoots. And of the remaining 5%, some are boy-racers, some are inexperienced, some are just not suited to driving. And Clarkson has had a LOT more experience than many enthusiasts.
The PH community probably reflect that remaining 5%. So clarkson only needs to be better than c.3/4 of PH members to hit that 99% mark. If 5-10% of PH members are club-racers (and we'll ASSUME all are better than him), then that still leaves 10-20% of the remaining PH membership who can be better than Clarkson without affecting the accuracy of that comment.
What I WOULD say is that virtually no-one will buy an Exige without being really into their driving, and hence being in that remaining 5%. To that extent, you have a point - most of the 5% have the ability to 'learn' a car, while I feel Clarkson's comments tend to be aimed at mainstream drivers, not the committed enthusiast.
Some good points there Havoc.
When I sit down and think about the maths, Scuffam is probably right about Clarky being better than 99% of PHers. It's a weird thought, as I've never thought Clarky was any good at all - but you're right - the maths do add up to support Scuffam's point.
However, I still disagree strongly about the Elise S2 being an understeerey car needing different tyres to really enjoy it. I think the guys at Hethel have done a fantastic job and I certainly have no complaints about understeer at all. I've driven and ridden in Shangani's S2 111S with Nitrons and wider front tyres and yes, I do feel that his car would be noticeably superior to my standard S2 111S on track (better body control - higher grip levels etc etc) (I should add that it is fine on the road as well - I was impressed); but I still feel that if you know what you're doing the standard S2 111S setup is perfectly good for road use with one or two trackdays a year (heavier track day use might benefit from Shangani's changes, but not to reduce understeer, just to get a sportier setup more suited to the track). The first corner I took really quickly in my car resulted in gentle controllable understeer, but after that I just adjusted my driving style accordingly and don't have a problem at all now. If you want proof, then read Phil Bennet's comments on the S2 111S in Autocar at their track day at Goodwood - he didn't complain at all
Or indeed take a ride with me sometime in my standard S2 111S.scuffham said:
His comment about the S2 years ago was spot on, they understeer, period.
yes, you can play with the setup to counter some of this, but at the end of the day, the std wheels/tyres/springs/dampers on a S2 will aways understeer, just becuse you *can* flick the back out into a powerslide, does not mean the basic car is not understeery.
.
Wrong. I am on standard suspension and wheels / tyres and standard geo. No understeer here.
Mine is fantastic on a nice smooth road with a nice uninterupted entrance and exit. however on a slightly bumpy road the car will do whatever the road wants it to do. i have a great 180 degree corner(think thats right??) on which one comes off the dual carriageway onto a supersmooth tight corner where im pressed up against the side of my seat and the car just begs for more, this corner leads onto a bumpy right hander where the car will understeer if you attempt to corner anywhere near the same as the previous corner. obviously i dont drive like a loon all over the place and my car means a lot to me so i take every corner like its a new one.
To sum it up, yes there is some understeer dialled in on a standard car, this is regarded and being safer than a standard car that will oversteer at each corner.(dont mean to teach you guys to suck eggs).
The car is fantastic and one of the best most neutral handling cars i have ever driven.
To sum it up, yes there is some understeer dialled in on a standard car, this is regarded and being safer than a standard car that will oversteer at each corner.(dont mean to teach you guys to suck eggs).
The car is fantastic and one of the best most neutral handling cars i have ever driven.
Is Clarkson actually a good driver?
Just because one drives many cars for a living doesn't make one a good driver.
Most of the shots taken on TG are long range with filters where you can't see the car, in other's with close-ups I've never once seen him throw a car into a drift with any conviction and where he's held it well. I think perhaps only the Sagaris drive did he actually appear to be driving it well, but again, all out of camera longer range filtered shots.
Hamster and May are no wheelsmiths's either. As above, good TV presenters but not 'great drivers'. Hence the need for the Stig to do decent laps around that track I guess.
>> Edited by S Works on Monday 20th March 14:33
Just because one drives many cars for a living doesn't make one a good driver.
Most of the shots taken on TG are long range with filters where you can't see the car, in other's with close-ups I've never once seen him throw a car into a drift with any conviction and where he's held it well. I think perhaps only the Sagaris drive did he actually appear to be driving it well, but again, all out of camera longer range filtered shots.
Hamster and May are no wheelsmiths's either. As above, good TV presenters but not 'great drivers'. Hence the need for the Stig to do decent laps around that track I guess.
>> Edited by S Works on Monday 20th March 14:33
gooby said:
His comment about the S2 years ago was spot on, they understeer, period.
yes, you can play with the setup to counter some of this, but at the end of the day, the std wheels/tyres/springs/dampers on a S2 will aways understeer, just becuse you *can* flick the back out into a powerslide, does not mean the basic car is not understeery.
.
Wrong. I am on standard suspension and wheels / tyres and standard geo. No understeer here.
Nice to see someone agreeing. Yes, my 111S is totally standard and I agree. Handles like a dream
One thing that is definitely true - you need to adapt your style for MR and RR cars (a lot more so than for FF and FR) - the weight-transfer issue for steering and traction becomes a lot more apparent, and is a lot more effective, hence why most racers are MR, and Porkers do so well in GT.
But you need to be an 'intelligent' driver to appreciate this fully. And while good drivers are clearly talented, maybe with some it's instinctive driving, not intuitive, hence they can miss stuff like that.
But you need to be an 'intelligent' driver to appreciate this fully. And while good drivers are clearly talented, maybe with some it's instinctive driving, not intuitive, hence they can miss stuff like that.
S Works said:
Is Clarkson actually a good driver?
Just because one drives many cars for a living doesn't make one a good driver.
Most of the shots taken on TG are long range with filters where you can't see the car, in other's with close-ups I've never once seen him throw a car into a drift with any conviction and where he's held it well. I think perhaps only the Sagaris drive did he actually appear to be driving it well, but again, all out of camera longer range filtered shots.
Hamster and May are no wheelsmiths's either. As above, good TV presenters but not 'great drivers'. Hence the need for the Stig to do decent laps around that track I guess.
>> Edited by S Works on Monday 20th March 14:33
I agree. He's heavy handed and without much feel or delicacy. As for fifth gear's Plato or Needell, that's another story
The problem with the Stig is he doesn't speak, so we can't hear an experienced driver's opinion. I loved the Martin Brundle supercar DVD for that reason - Brundle gives highly skilled and totally unbiased opinions on the cars.Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff