Dilemma :confused:
Discussion
Guys & Girls - I currently am the proud owner of a '99 S1 111s, but her in doors would like me to change it for something with smaller bills !! On the plus side she is happy for me to change for a newer model (the car that is) so an S2 is on the shopping list.
Now the dilemma do I go for another 111s or stretch the budget and go for the 111r, basically is the "r" worth the extra money?
I mainly use it on the road as a second car with the odd airfield day during the year.
Any thoughts or words of wisdom would be most welcome.
Cheers
Dave
Now the dilemma do I go for another 111s or stretch the budget and go for the 111r, basically is the "r" worth the extra money?
I mainly use it on the road as a second car with the odd airfield day during the year.
Any thoughts or words of wisdom would be most welcome.
Cheers
Dave
It remains a very open question.
I believe you have to drive both to decide if you like the sudden (and waited) power of the R. I do believe in normal life the S is more pleasant to drive as the power delivery is more linear. I like my R for the small boost at 6200 rpm (I do not try the exige S so far and this is why I wrote "small"
, but as I already wrote on other topics the powerband is quite narrow and not so fully exploitable, even on track.
After a test, if you still hesitate, I would ponder the choice regarding reliability of the toyota engine, resale value, ex-top of range engine,...
Good luck and do not hesitate to ask more specific question if you need
Ben
I believe you have to drive both to decide if you like the sudden (and waited) power of the R. I do believe in normal life the S is more pleasant to drive as the power delivery is more linear. I like my R for the small boost at 6200 rpm (I do not try the exige S so far and this is why I wrote "small"
, but as I already wrote on other topics the powerband is quite narrow and not so fully exploitable, even on track. After a test, if you still hesitate, I would ponder the choice regarding reliability of the toyota engine, resale value, ex-top of range engine,...
Good luck and do not hesitate to ask more specific question if you need
Ben
Hi Dave
There was only one choice for me personally, but that was down to the daft but deep-seated fact that I have an allergy to all things Rover! So much so, that if it wasn't for the R, I wouldn't have a Lotus now! (which is actually quite shocking when I think of it in those terms!)
But don't let my oddity influence you too much (unless you share the same aversion!) as many, many people love theirs with the K series in it
As I was therefore only in the market for an R, some end of year deals last December made me seriously think about it, but then I just got gloriously carried away an bought and spanking new SportsRacer
As others have said, drive a few to see which one really does it for ya. I am a fan of the split personality 2nd cam - but others hate it. For me, and the road, the Toyota is lively enough (granted, not bolok clenchingly wild) but when 2nd cam kicks in, it just goes, and goes and goes. Amazing. To have both characters in the same unit suits me fine, but as others comment, not for them
One point on a financial score - any car will lose & cost you money mate... period. If that is a really big issue, then I don't quite know what to suggest!
Enjoy finding out because research, tests and decisions are all, as you well know from already owning one, such a great part of getting into Lotus isn't?
>> Edited by Janitor on Wednesday 29th March 10:17
There was only one choice for me personally, but that was down to the daft but deep-seated fact that I have an allergy to all things Rover! So much so, that if it wasn't for the R, I wouldn't have a Lotus now! (which is actually quite shocking when I think of it in those terms!)
But don't let my oddity influence you too much (unless you share the same aversion!) as many, many people love theirs with the K series in it
As I was therefore only in the market for an R, some end of year deals last December made me seriously think about it, but then I just got gloriously carried away an bought and spanking new SportsRacer
As others have said, drive a few to see which one really does it for ya. I am a fan of the split personality 2nd cam - but others hate it. For me, and the road, the Toyota is lively enough (granted, not bolok clenchingly wild) but when 2nd cam kicks in, it just goes, and goes and goes. Amazing. To have both characters in the same unit suits me fine, but as others comment, not for them
One point on a financial score - any car will lose & cost you money mate... period. If that is a really big issue, then I don't quite know what to suggest!
Enjoy finding out because research, tests and decisions are all, as you well know from already owning one, such a great part of getting into Lotus isn't?
>> Edited by Janitor on Wednesday 29th March 10:17
Another vote for the R. I still suggest you drive both because they are quite different.
My points for the R include:
The gearshift is fab and improves with time.
The engine improves with miles (mine was quite tight when i got it and took 5000 miles to loosen up) and since i put on the larini, it pulls well through the whole rev range. You just can't beat that last 2000 revs.
The development cycle for this engine in the Liz has only just started and over the next few years there will be many options for extra grunt.
The R rides best of all the elises i've tried. S1, S2, S2 111s, S2 135(Since you are mainly using it on road.)
When i had my S2 i could never get over the concrete mixer behind my shoulder feeling and that nagging fear of HGF. ( Which i'm sure is over played but still esists.)
Good luck on your searches, i'm sure you'll enjoy whatever you decide.
My points for the R include:
The gearshift is fab and improves with time.
The engine improves with miles (mine was quite tight when i got it and took 5000 miles to loosen up) and since i put on the larini, it pulls well through the whole rev range. You just can't beat that last 2000 revs.
The development cycle for this engine in the Liz has only just started and over the next few years there will be many options for extra grunt.
The R rides best of all the elises i've tried. S1, S2, S2 111s, S2 135(Since you are mainly using it on road.)
When i had my S2 i could never get over the concrete mixer behind my shoulder feeling and that nagging fear of HGF. ( Which i'm sure is over played but still esists.)
Good luck on your searches, i'm sure you'll enjoy whatever you decide.
Can't quite comment on the R since I own an Exige, but going through the running-in at the moment, I am quite surprised to see how well it already pulls at low RPMs. I've only pushed it as far as 6000 RPM and mostly never over 4500 (as the manual suggests) and I am very satisfied with the power delivery in 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear. IMO very usable and I can't wait to get the engine going into 2nd cam for that extra kick once I reach that point in/after the running-in process! Perhaps running-in the engine properly does make that extra difference...
Cheers Phil
Cheers Phil
Hi Dave,
Slightly off-track - I am planning on getting a S1 111S in the next few weeks - Please can you let me know what you mean by 'change it for something with smaller bills' ?
I am a bit concerned - Are you talking general running cost ie wear & tear, servicing etc, or upgrades, or is it just always breaking down ?
My £13K budget will get me a mint S1 111S but I am also in standard S2 territory - I actullay prefer the looks of the S1 and the performance - But will it just be a money pit ? S2 a better option ? Please be honest.
Cheers,
Ben
Slightly off-track - I am planning on getting a S1 111S in the next few weeks - Please can you let me know what you mean by 'change it for something with smaller bills' ?
I am a bit concerned - Are you talking general running cost ie wear & tear, servicing etc, or upgrades, or is it just always breaking down ?
My £13K budget will get me a mint S1 111S but I am also in standard S2 territory - I actullay prefer the looks of the S1 and the performance - But will it just be a money pit ? S2 a better option ? Please be honest.
Cheers,
Ben
MancBen said:
Hi Dave,
Slightly off-track - I am planning on getting a S1 111S in the next few weeks - Please can you let me know what you mean by 'change it for something with smaller bills' ?
I am a bit concerned - Are you talking general running cost ie wear & tear, servicing etc, or upgrades, or is it just always breaking down ?
My £13K budget will get me a mint S1 111S but I am also in standard S2 territory - I actullay prefer the looks of the S1 and the performance - But will it just be a money pit ? S2 a better option ? Please be honest.
Cheers,
Ben
Hi Ben
I had exectly the same choice a short while back and chose a '99 S1 111S. I used as an everyday car for a while and found it to be 100% reliable and very cheap to run (fuel costs and insurance). Obviously it does depend on where you get the car from but it would appear that most Lotus owners are genuine enthusiasts and maintain their cars regardless of cost. As such, any issues with earlier models tend to have been addressed as soon as they became apparent so an S1 purchased from the right place should be no more of a risk than an S2.
On the subjet of the S2, I'm no expert but it does seem that the improvements over the S1 were more on the practical and cosmetic issues than reliabilty. Better roof mechanism, easier entry due to lower sills, improved interior layout etc. It still uses the K Series engine after all.
That said, there is obviously a school of thought that your money should always go into the latest, lowest mileage car available.
Swapping to an S2 won't save you money, it'll cost you more. Chances are if you've had big bills the car's in a good state at the moment right? If so you also have the added risk of the unknown with any car, so even though the R is newer, doesn't mean you'll have less or more bills... apart from the one you get when you buy it!
For your use I would stick with it as-is and save your money for running costs. The cost to change to an S2 111S will probably be in the order of 5k plus, and an R will be possibly double for a nice low mileage one.
You'd have to totally screw up everything on your S1 to justify that sort of money... and then we get on to depreciation...
For your use I would stick with it as-is and save your money for running costs. The cost to change to an S2 111S will probably be in the order of 5k plus, and an R will be possibly double for a nice low mileage one.
You'd have to totally screw up everything on your S1 to justify that sort of money... and then we get on to depreciation...
emenel said:
That said, there is obviously a school of thought that your money should always go into the latest, lowest mileage car available.
Just beware of holding that thought. Cars which are not used much tend to go wrong more than one's which are used regularly. A well looked after, enthusiast-owned, average miles car is usually a safer bet than one which is left to sit around and only used very occasionally.
Phil-CH said:
Can't quite comment on the R since I own an Exige, but going through the running-in at the moment, I am quite surprised to see how well it already pulls at low RPMs. I've only pushed it as far as 6000 RPM and mostly never over 4500 (as the manual suggests) and I am very satisfied with the power delivery in 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear. IMO very usable and I can't wait to get the engine going into 2nd cam for that extra kick once I reach that point in/after the running-in process! Perhaps running-in the engine properly does make that extra difference...
Cheers Phil
Sorry for the hijack.
Phil you are supposed to go onto the second cam between 600 and 1000 miles. If you dont the pistons wont bed in properly.
There is an artucle floating around on Exiges.com from Lotus confirming that beetween these mileages you should go onto the second cam briefly.
I did this on mine and the garage confirmed it had been properly run in at the first service.
Take it up to about 7000 rpm briefly a couple of times each time you go out
I have an early S2 - it's brilliant and I love it to bits!
I didn't consider the 111R 'cos at the time i got mine it was WAY too expensive!.
for me there would be 2 plusses and 2 minuses in getting a 111R
+ decent gearchange!
+ ABS (a REAL biggie in my opinion! - yes it may spoil your pedal feel a bit and heel-toeing may be a bit trickier, but since pretty much all of my driving is on the road, and since sheep exist, i would be much happier with it on my car!) -
- weight. - don't know the exact figures but my S2 sports tourer is somewhere about 770-780kg i think, and the 111R (when specced with touring pack etc) is nearer 900kg (sorry if that's wrong)
- schizophrenic engine. - again for my road driving, having to rev the nuts off the beast all the time would be pretty tiresome.
that's my opinion, but I think the best advice above was to simply stick with your S1 111S! - if you've fixed all the major probs you should have a pretty reliable and cheap car now, so just enjoy! - great engine, much lighter weight, probably significantly lower depreciation. - I'd keep it!! - if you want more power, DVA do some pretty simple but effective kits for the VVC engine at a decent price!
A.
I didn't consider the 111R 'cos at the time i got mine it was WAY too expensive!.
for me there would be 2 plusses and 2 minuses in getting a 111R
+ decent gearchange!
+ ABS (a REAL biggie in my opinion! - yes it may spoil your pedal feel a bit and heel-toeing may be a bit trickier, but since pretty much all of my driving is on the road, and since sheep exist, i would be much happier with it on my car!) -
- weight. - don't know the exact figures but my S2 sports tourer is somewhere about 770-780kg i think, and the 111R (when specced with touring pack etc) is nearer 900kg (sorry if that's wrong)
- schizophrenic engine. - again for my road driving, having to rev the nuts off the beast all the time would be pretty tiresome.
that's my opinion, but I think the best advice above was to simply stick with your S1 111S! - if you've fixed all the major probs you should have a pretty reliable and cheap car now, so just enjoy! - great engine, much lighter weight, probably significantly lower depreciation. - I'd keep it!! - if you want more power, DVA do some pretty simple but effective kits for the VVC engine at a decent price!
A.
[quote]
Hi Ben
I had exectly the same choice a short while back and chose a '99 S1 111S. I used as an everyday car for a while and found it to be 100% reliable and very cheap to run (fuel costs and insurance). Obviously it does depend on where you get the car from but it would appear that most Lotus owners are genuine enthusiasts and maintain their cars regardless of cost. As such, any issues with earlier models tend to have been addressed as soon as they became apparent so an S1 purchased from the right place should be no more of a risk than an S2.
On the subjet of the S2, I'm no expert but it does seem that the improvements over the S1 were more on the practical and cosmetic issues than reliabilty. Better roof mechanism, easier entry due to lower sills, improved interior layout etc. It still uses the K Series engine after all.
That said, there is obviously a school of thought that your money should always go into the latest, lowest mileage car available.[/quote]
Thanks Emenal - You have confirmed my thoughts
Hi Ben
I had exectly the same choice a short while back and chose a '99 S1 111S. I used as an everyday car for a while and found it to be 100% reliable and very cheap to run (fuel costs and insurance). Obviously it does depend on where you get the car from but it would appear that most Lotus owners are genuine enthusiasts and maintain their cars regardless of cost. As such, any issues with earlier models tend to have been addressed as soon as they became apparent so an S1 purchased from the right place should be no more of a risk than an S2.
On the subjet of the S2, I'm no expert but it does seem that the improvements over the S1 were more on the practical and cosmetic issues than reliabilty. Better roof mechanism, easier entry due to lower sills, improved interior layout etc. It still uses the K Series engine after all.
That said, there is obviously a school of thought that your money should always go into the latest, lowest mileage car available.[/quote]
Thanks Emenal - You have confirmed my thoughts
MancBen said:
[quote]
Hi Ben
I had exectly the same choice a short while back and chose a '99 S1 111S. I used as an everyday car for a while and found it to be 100% reliable and very cheap to run (fuel costs and insurance). Obviously it does depend on where you get the car from but it would appear that most Lotus owners are genuine enthusiasts and maintain their cars regardless of cost. As such, any issues with earlier models tend to have been addressed as soon as they became apparent so an S1 purchased from the right place should be no more of a risk than an S2.
On the subjet of the S2, I'm no expert but it does seem that the improvements over the S1 were more on the practical and cosmetic issues than reliabilty. Better roof mechanism, easier entry due to lower sills, improved interior layout etc. It still uses the K Series engine after all.
That said, there is obviously a school of thought that your money should always go into the latest, lowest mileage car available.
Thanks Emenal - You have confirmed my thoughts
[/quote] No worries. Happy hunting!
MancBen said:
Hi Dave,
Slightly off-track - I am planning on getting a S1 111S in the next few weeks - Please can you let me know what you mean by 'change it for something with smaller bills' ?
I am a bit concerned - Are you talking general running cost ie wear & tear, servicing etc, or upgrades, or is it just always breaking down ?
My £13K budget will get me a mint S1 111S but I am also in standard S2 territory - I actullay prefer the looks of the S1 and the performance - But will it just be a money pit ? S2 a better option ? Please be honest.
Cheers,
Ben
Ben
The bills I am referring to are new tyres, rear brake pads, "c" service & cam belt change. Other expenses are self inflicted such as 52mm TB, Larini back box, short shifter, new spots, new headlight covers etc etc.
The trouble with owning an Elise is you always want to improve it !!
To be honest I would probably end up doing a similar thing on an S2 as well so the costs are unlikely to go down as a few of you have pointed out.
Thanks to all for the advice guys, I need to drive them both and then decide if the upgrade is worth the extra expense or would the money be better spent keeping the yellow peril on the road.
Cheers
Dave
If you like your car and are quite happy with it then why change? I'm constantly battling with myself thinking 'hmm' what if, maybe if I... etc. etc. Human nature to always want more.
Then I drive my car again and fall in love again. I've not come closer to a car which really pretty much has it all as a driving tool. I think the only way I could be prised out of the beast at the moment is if I could get a Saffron Yellow 135R for around 17k. Even then I know I'd end up spending a grand or more on it straight away (geo, 4-2-1, Sports Exhaust & Induction).
They're an addiction.
I'm beginning to think a Honda conversion is a cheap alternative!
Then I drive my car again and fall in love again. I've not come closer to a car which really pretty much has it all as a driving tool. I think the only way I could be prised out of the beast at the moment is if I could get a Saffron Yellow 135R for around 17k. Even then I know I'd end up spending a grand or more on it straight away (geo, 4-2-1, Sports Exhaust & Induction).
They're an addiction.
I'm beginning to think a Honda conversion is a cheap alternative!
Hi, sounds like staying where you are is the way forward!
I've only had my Liz for a few months but I know that by the end of the year I'll probably start looking sideways at a supposedly better/faster one. When that happens I'll try and rembember that not many years ago I sold the sweetest little yacht I'll probably ever own to buy a bigger/better/faster one. Guess what? Never had anything like the fun with the bigger boat and it cost me a small fortune getting her in the sort of racing trim I like having sold a fully sorted boat.
It was an expensive lesson in life and one I'll try and remember.
I've only had my Liz for a few months but I know that by the end of the year I'll probably start looking sideways at a supposedly better/faster one. When that happens I'll try and rembember that not many years ago I sold the sweetest little yacht I'll probably ever own to buy a bigger/better/faster one. Guess what? Never had anything like the fun with the bigger boat and it cost me a small fortune getting her in the sort of racing trim I like having sold a fully sorted boat.
It was an expensive lesson in life and one I'll try and remember.
Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff