Rover’s K Series, a bullet proof 350 bhp supercharged engine
Discussion
I've found a long...but very interesting story about the K Series engine that makes it more understandeble and much more reliable...but many things to do
Also the differences in weight with the Honda K20 and Ford duratec and S2000 engines, I was amazed of that...and hw good the K Series could be when fitted with the right parts!!
here is the complete story...
Could not let it work...story to long and interesting stuf gone...so here see it yourself or better read it yourself, the last update is from end 2004 I believe...
www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/kingk.html
GTRene
>> Edited by GTRene on Monday 17th April 09:49
Also the differences in weight with the Honda K20 and Ford duratec and S2000 engines, I was amazed of that...and hw good the K Series could be when fitted with the right parts!!
here is the complete story...
Could not let it work...story to long and interesting stuf gone...so here see it yourself or better read it yourself, the last update is from end 2004 I believe...
www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/kingk.html
GTRene
>> Edited by GTRene on Monday 17th April 09:49
so it can be done...but still not is done? or not known of..thats sad me thinks
well theres the challange
who pays the tuner
when you want to get all the niggles out the K Series you must find suppliers and do a lot of research...but most of it has bin done over the years! so a headstart you have
I've seen/heard of some 265hp K Series...but thats still almost a 100 short of...I also think it can be done but at what cost...
GTRene
>> Edited by GTRene on Monday 17th April 09:56
well theres the challange
who pays the tuner when you want to get all the niggles out the K Series you must find suppliers and do a lot of research...but most of it has bin done over the years! so a headstart you have I've seen/heard of some 265hp K Series...but thats still almost a 100 short of...I also think it can be done but at what cost...
GTRene
>> Edited by GTRene on Monday 17th April 09:56
theres been a few non- TT conversion SC K series running high power (inc the ones that the author of the doc have built) ...to my knowledge all of them have gone bang so far ......there was a guy who spent £18K having one built ...it never made it off the bench dyno ...it went bang before it got into the car ...I saw it at a local rolling road/engine dyno place about 18 months ago.
hm...sad news then...18K thats a lot money! thats a Honda SC(whit whining noise?) and money for a few trackdays...so the only "positive" side of that long story so far is the coolant/thermostat story of wich you also hear a lot...this part..
Fixing the Problems
As a 1.8 litre there are, or were, two minor problems, design features of the basic engine which did give rise to problems when the engine was tuned. The first is the positioning of the thermostat in the cooling system, which was not designed for engines frequently put under heavy load. It was first designed as an efficient engine for lightweight front wheel drive cars, typically the Rover Metro and the current Rover 25, with good fuel consumption and requiring low emissions from start-up when the car was likely to see a large number of very short inner city journeys. It was thus designed to give very rapid warm up by placing the thermostat at the coolant inlet to the engine, where the thermostat measures essentially cooled water from the radiator with a very small quantity of heated water from the balancing circuit until the stat opens. This is a very unusual coolant path design, but is effective in its required purpose.
The system does not function well in cooling circuits with a radiator a long way from the engine in the cooling path, or for engines constantly seeing high engine speeds .The problem arises when the engine is put under heavy load, causing high engine temperatures that are not immediately read by the thermostat because cold water in the radiator and hoses has to pass the thermostat first. This can cause enormous thermal gradients across the engine, causing both distortion of the head and block and also gasket failure. The vehicle which suffered most from this was the Land Rover Freelander. Apparently, the typical owner for this vehicle is the middle class housewife and mother who use it for large numbers of short shopping trips to the supermarket!! Being heavy and 4x4, the 1.8 litre K’s tend to be pushed very hard from cold. This results in the engine getting very hot before the water can circulate and open the thermostat. Result – blown gasket. Early last year, Rover introduced a new thermostat, the PRT thermostat that will open with pressure as well as temperature, the result is that it opens much more quickly and prevents this thermal shock across the engine. There still appear to be problems with the Freelander, amid concerns that Ford have already executed a cost down on this new thermostat. However, it is quite apparent that as soon as the thermostat is moved to the output on the engine that temperature related gasket failure no longer becomes an issue. It is something of a surprise therefore that the Ford engineers concerned with the installation and performance of the K in the Freelander do not adopt this simple approach. The PRT thermostat is also a very expensive item that must be an issue with such pressure for cost downs. However effective the PRT thermostat is for a road car, a far more effective solution for any engine used on the track, and in fact any Elise with its problematic long coolant hose runs is to move the thermostat to the output side of the engine. Both Elise Parts.com and QED do inexpensive remote thermostat housings for this purpose. When one of these units is employed, the thermostat is measuring the engine temperature and is therefore able to control the coolant temperature quickly and sensitively.
Removing the thermostat altogether, as currently practiced by some, is no solution, firstly because engine warm-up becomes protracted, with all the implications for premature engine wear and secondly, because the engine temperature is at the mercy of the pump speed, if engine speed falls, the coolant in the radiator will cool disproportionately, then as soon as engine speed builds and engine temperature with it, the pump speeds to sends a mass of very cold water from the radiator suddenly to the engine. There is no thermostat to even this process out so the engine is repeatedly subjected to thermal shock. Bad for the head, bad for the block, and sooner or later the gasket will go. Fit the thermostat to the coolant output and the extreme temperature gradients that beset the engine when used on the track are significantly mitigated. Modification of this coolant path is something that Lotus should have done with all the K series engines in all their Elise’s, This would have then prevented any gasket failures.
GTRene
>> Edited by GTRene on Monday 17th April 10:12
Fixing the Problems
As a 1.8 litre there are, or were, two minor problems, design features of the basic engine which did give rise to problems when the engine was tuned. The first is the positioning of the thermostat in the cooling system, which was not designed for engines frequently put under heavy load. It was first designed as an efficient engine for lightweight front wheel drive cars, typically the Rover Metro and the current Rover 25, with good fuel consumption and requiring low emissions from start-up when the car was likely to see a large number of very short inner city journeys. It was thus designed to give very rapid warm up by placing the thermostat at the coolant inlet to the engine, where the thermostat measures essentially cooled water from the radiator with a very small quantity of heated water from the balancing circuit until the stat opens. This is a very unusual coolant path design, but is effective in its required purpose.
The system does not function well in cooling circuits with a radiator a long way from the engine in the cooling path, or for engines constantly seeing high engine speeds .The problem arises when the engine is put under heavy load, causing high engine temperatures that are not immediately read by the thermostat because cold water in the radiator and hoses has to pass the thermostat first. This can cause enormous thermal gradients across the engine, causing both distortion of the head and block and also gasket failure. The vehicle which suffered most from this was the Land Rover Freelander. Apparently, the typical owner for this vehicle is the middle class housewife and mother who use it for large numbers of short shopping trips to the supermarket!! Being heavy and 4x4, the 1.8 litre K’s tend to be pushed very hard from cold. This results in the engine getting very hot before the water can circulate and open the thermostat. Result – blown gasket. Early last year, Rover introduced a new thermostat, the PRT thermostat that will open with pressure as well as temperature, the result is that it opens much more quickly and prevents this thermal shock across the engine. There still appear to be problems with the Freelander, amid concerns that Ford have already executed a cost down on this new thermostat. However, it is quite apparent that as soon as the thermostat is moved to the output on the engine that temperature related gasket failure no longer becomes an issue. It is something of a surprise therefore that the Ford engineers concerned with the installation and performance of the K in the Freelander do not adopt this simple approach. The PRT thermostat is also a very expensive item that must be an issue with such pressure for cost downs. However effective the PRT thermostat is for a road car, a far more effective solution for any engine used on the track, and in fact any Elise with its problematic long coolant hose runs is to move the thermostat to the output side of the engine. Both Elise Parts.com and QED do inexpensive remote thermostat housings for this purpose. When one of these units is employed, the thermostat is measuring the engine temperature and is therefore able to control the coolant temperature quickly and sensitively.
Removing the thermostat altogether, as currently practiced by some, is no solution, firstly because engine warm-up becomes protracted, with all the implications for premature engine wear and secondly, because the engine temperature is at the mercy of the pump speed, if engine speed falls, the coolant in the radiator will cool disproportionately, then as soon as engine speed builds and engine temperature with it, the pump speeds to sends a mass of very cold water from the radiator suddenly to the engine. There is no thermostat to even this process out so the engine is repeatedly subjected to thermal shock. Bad for the head, bad for the block, and sooner or later the gasket will go. Fit the thermostat to the coolant output and the extreme temperature gradients that beset the engine when used on the track are significantly mitigated. Modification of this coolant path is something that Lotus should have done with all the K series engines in all their Elise’s, This would have then prevented any gasket failures.
GTRene
>> Edited by GTRene on Monday 17th April 10:12
calling Mr Scuffham, this is control, King K alert... 
or go for one of these
http://video.google.com/videoplay?doc
But we are listening...what do you have for us...
GTRene
http://video.google.com/videoplay?doc
But we are listening...what do you have for us...
GTRene
Rene, I'm going out to play on a wonderful, sunny, Bank Holiday - with not a care in the world. Here's a quick synopsis of the large can of worms you've opened!
King K (Simon Erland) has laid out the parameters for others to build a powerful, reliable K, something which some people have never achieved. They think it better to replace the K with a Honda engine. This act costing over £10,000.
If the Simon Erland £6000 modded K's prove to be successful, many owners, perhaps considering a change to Honda might change their minds. This would be unacceptable to the Hondanistas - hence the lies, smears etc against Simon Erland on SELOC. A site I no longer frequent since discovering that Simon Scruffem appointed himself a director of that organisation.
We in the Erland camp are building a dossier of mods, prices and dyno graphs which will be published in due course for scrutiny by interested parties.
King K (Simon Erland) has laid out the parameters for others to build a powerful, reliable K, something which some people have never achieved. They think it better to replace the K with a Honda engine. This act costing over £10,000.
If the Simon Erland £6000 modded K's prove to be successful, many owners, perhaps considering a change to Honda might change their minds. This would be unacceptable to the Hondanistas - hence the lies, smears etc against Simon Erland on SELOC. A site I no longer frequent since discovering that Simon Scruffem appointed himself a director of that organisation.
We in the Erland camp are building a dossier of mods, prices and dyno graphs which will be published in due course for scrutiny by interested parties.
I gained a huge amount of info from the kingK article and have never had anything other than friendly, helpful advice from Sinon Erland who has gone out of his way to help me on a number of occasions. I thank him unreservedly for that.
I hope his passion for the K series and the work he is doing comes to fruition and silences the criticism. Many people would stand to benefit - as many have done from honda conversions etc. There is a place for tuned k series engines, just as there is a place for honda's / duratecs / audi's.
I do not intend this post as being anti ANYONE in case it is interpreted that way. I have similarly had loads of useful advice from many other people and it is also appreciated.
I hope his passion for the K series and the work he is doing comes to fruition and silences the criticism. Many people would stand to benefit - as many have done from honda conversions etc. There is a place for tuned k series engines, just as there is a place for honda's / duratecs / audi's.
I do not intend this post as being anti ANYONE in case it is interpreted that way. I have similarly had loads of useful advice from many other people and it is also appreciated.
321freeflow said:
<Fastens seat belt> - there's more than one King K engine out there now, we even have the figures from the Emerald dyno to prove it.
OK so there are a few ...none that are anything out of the ordinary though ....for £6K you can have a 220bhp K series ...wow...seen it and bought the T Shirt and then kissed goodbye to it after 40K miles
where are the 300bhp ones that are 'utterly reliable' then?
When a £6K 250bhp K series has covered 50K miles, done 20-30 trackdays and hasnt gone bang then i guess a lot of people will be interested.
..personally I have no axe to grind, Im very happy with my Honda lump, but I was also happy with my tuned K until it let go ...the big problem is there is no proof of reliability/longetivity ...just me Erlands word to go on.
If in 2 years time there are a few dozen out there...giving big power over lots of miles then fair play to the man.......a lot of people will eat their hats..until then if you want more than 200bhp AND you want it to last for a few years then dump the K and stick a Ford/Audi/Honda lump in there
Time will tell then I guess, some good sounds about the K Series but still the proof of reliability is not there then?!
Ofcorse a Honda/audi/duratec have lots of proove because they came out in millions of cars with sporty inputs too, but it would be still nice to see a payeble form of K Series with around 250hp that is as reliable as the other conversions are in those tuned state...when that is proven with the K rover and the price is good(better then the other versions) I think there will be a huge market for thoose...(you still wil not have the 6 speed gear box though wich come with the Honda) hm...but its very very light
It cost around 10K for a 220hp reliable Honda with 6 speed and some more things...don't see that soon happen for the same or better combo with a K-Series...same quallity and reliable...
And a bit of topic, what about the RST V8 stil not hear much about that, is that because its to expensive? total build all in around 20K?? and then what about your boot, does that all fit with that small V8 or will the boot be gone ala S1 Exige?
GTRene
>> Edited by GTRene on Monday 17th April 13:42
Ofcorse a Honda/audi/duratec have lots of proove because they came out in millions of cars with sporty inputs too, but it would be still nice to see a payeble form of K Series with around 250hp that is as reliable as the other conversions are in those tuned state...when that is proven with the K rover and the price is good(better then the other versions) I think there will be a huge market for thoose...(you still wil not have the 6 speed gear box though wich come with the Honda) hm...but its very very light
It cost around 10K for a 220hp reliable Honda with 6 speed and some more things...don't see that soon happen for the same or better combo with a K-Series...same quallity and reliable...
And a bit of topic, what about the RST V8 stil not hear much about that, is that because its to expensive? total build all in around 20K?? and then what about your boot, does that all fit with that small V8 or will the boot be gone ala S1 Exige?
GTRene
>> Edited by GTRene on Monday 17th April 13:42
sadly another fine projekt died...and indeed a total of 25K and more up the Elise is a bit to much...?
wonder what will come next then...so the V8 is till now "only" for the Elise GT1 and that was already a long time ago...
Ofcorse a fast 4 pot is very good doing the job and can also be up to at least 400hp but when you can say you have a V8 in a Elise, and feel a fast lightweight V8 in the back with a sequentel gearbox is very special, but when they only make a few it will stay expensive to make that conversion...
thanks
GTRene
wonder what will come next then...so the V8 is till now "only" for the Elise GT1 and that was already a long time ago...
Ofcorse a fast 4 pot is very good doing the job and can also be up to at least 400hp but when you can say you have a V8 in a Elise, and feel a fast lightweight V8 in the back with a sequentel gearbox
is very special, but when they only make a few it will stay expensive to make that conversion... thanks
GTRene
bogie said:
OK so there are a few ...none that are anything out of the ordinary though ....for £6K you can have a 220bhp K series ...wow...seen it and bought the T Shirt and then kissed goodbye to it after 40K miles
Really? The most I've heard from a "hydraulic" cam K is 210bhp, we have 221bhp & 158ft/lb - that is out of the ordinary for that spec of 1.8K
Reliability? Well, we always knew when we produced figures like the above that your next whine would be the "R" word.
Things are coming along nicely - both Simon and myself have other projects on the go, so we'll let the miles build up on what's been achieved so far. The larger engines will soon be ready (the hold-up is probably me, as I have yet to design the exhaust). We'll publish in our own time.
well you never mentioned you were getting 220bhp from hydraulic tappets 
Personally im interested in it for the sake of it - I have never had a problem with Simon E...just with some of the outlandish claims that were made originally...(probably 2 years ago now !)
I would really like to see a £6K 220bhp K series conversion that lasts and admire Simon for all the effort hes put into it ....its just when you hear stuff like 300bhp, lasts forever and all for less than a Honda etc thats misleading.
So what do you get for £6K ?- is that all parts, labour and warrantied ...or is that how much you can DIY it for ?
Will anyone ever go into business offering engines/conversions built to Simons spec or will it remain a hobby type thing for Simon and a few others who like to tinker?
When parting with large amounts of money, most of the people I know who have the engine conversion cars just want a turnkey solution, thats hassle free and guaranteed for a year or so ....going to an engine builder that works from his shed, for a one-off top spec engine with an end of the road warranty isnt so appealing.....
Personally im interested in it for the sake of it - I have never had a problem with Simon E...just with some of the outlandish claims that were made originally...(probably 2 years ago now !)
I would really like to see a £6K 220bhp K series conversion that lasts and admire Simon for all the effort hes put into it ....its just when you hear stuff like 300bhp, lasts forever and all for less than a Honda etc thats misleading.
So what do you get for £6K ?- is that all parts, labour and warrantied ...or is that how much you can DIY it for ?
Will anyone ever go into business offering engines/conversions built to Simons spec or will it remain a hobby type thing for Simon and a few others who like to tinker?
When parting with large amounts of money, most of the people I know who have the engine conversion cars just want a turnkey solution, thats hassle free and guaranteed for a year or so ....going to an engine builder that works from his shed, for a one-off top spec engine with an end of the road warranty isnt so appealing.....
I've already said too much.
Once Simon's full report is out and backed by the hard evidence in his possesssion, I'm sure the "establishment" will take on board his advice and a reliable tuned K will be widely available. I have seen some of the evidence he has gathered and it's shocking how the same mistakes have been made down the years by supposedly experienced tuners.
Sure, he's tweaked a few noses with his claims and yes, anyone with a business converting K's to Hondas is going to feel threatened. Some resort to outright lies and smears - desperate indeed.
Once Simon's full report is out and backed by the hard evidence in his possesssion, I'm sure the "establishment" will take on board his advice and a reliable tuned K will be widely available. I have seen some of the evidence he has gathered and it's shocking how the same mistakes have been made down the years by supposedly experienced tuners.
Sure, he's tweaked a few noses with his claims and yes, anyone with a business converting K's to Hondas is going to feel threatened. Some resort to outright lies and smears - desperate indeed.
i've heard these arguments run and run and while i like to be open minded, to new possiblities i cant help but be skeptical here, while i'm of firm beleif that a reliable k unit with around 200hp or so is readily achivable, my skeptism creeps in when claims are made of 230+ hp engines which is what was orignally claimed or there abouts.
This was done some 2 yrs ago and i've not heard of anything since, while i wish the people involved the best of success, i think they were wrong to rubbish other power conversions/tuners while having no product of there own, or no engines to even demonstrate these power figures.
A 1.8 producing even 220 hp is basically pumping out 120+ hp a litre a very high specific output for any engine (to get these kind of per litre outputs is usally very expensive from what i've seen), so to claim that you can do this cheaply, reliably and that everyone else is rubbish or there products overpriced, while having no engines to back up these facts understanbly angered a lot of people, getting an specific output that high is a job in itself making it last 80 odd thousand miles well thats a huge challange
This was done some 2 yrs ago and i've not heard of anything since, while i wish the people involved the best of success, i think they were wrong to rubbish other power conversions/tuners while having no product of there own, or no engines to even demonstrate these power figures.
A 1.8 producing even 220 hp is basically pumping out 120+ hp a litre a very high specific output for any engine (to get these kind of per litre outputs is usally very expensive from what i've seen), so to claim that you can do this cheaply, reliably and that everyone else is rubbish or there products overpriced, while having no engines to back up these facts understanbly angered a lot of people, getting an specific output that high is a job in itself making it last 80 odd thousand miles well thats a huge challange
Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff