Griffith vs Elise
Discussion
After 2.5 years with my TVR Griff. we may be parting company in favour of an 3 or 4 yr old Elise. Has anyone been through a similar change and was it the right move??
Despite my love of the looks, sound etc of the Griff. the high maintenance costs and disapointing handling on A / B roads has made me think of changing.
However I'm not sure the Elise will be much cheaper (I'm probably spending £2k a year currently on insurance, maintenance + service)
Any comments / advise very welcome.
I have never owned a TVR due to my belief that I couldn't afford to run one.
You should find huge savings in fuel alone, more informed people here, who have owned both will fill you in. Trawl through the archives, you will find this subject has come up a few times.
Best of luck.
Phil.
You should find huge savings in fuel alone, more informed people here, who have owned both will fill you in. Trawl through the archives, you will find this subject has come up a few times.
Best of luck.
Phil.
Couple of folks here have made the switch, me 4 years of Chimaera 4.5 via 6 months of Tuscan to Elise last year. Been discussed, do a search on this forum keyword TVR ... no actually dont as its clearly not working e.g.
www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?t=219444&f=15&h=0&hw=hbaumhardt
www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?t=254546&f=15&h=0&hw=hbaumhardt
Key question to get a meaningful dialoge going is what do you want/use the car for ? Weekends away, broad blasting, motorway crusing trackdays, touring holidays, looking cool & pulling chix (a test to see who is awake here) ...
www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?t=219444&f=15&h=0&hw=hbaumhardt
www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?t=254546&f=15&h=0&hw=hbaumhardt
Key question to get a meaningful dialoge going is what do you want/use the car for ? Weekends away, broad blasting, motorway crusing trackdays, touring holidays, looking cool & pulling chix (a test to see who is awake here) ...
I can't claim to be unbiased, but I made the move from Elise to Griffith then back to Elise. You can find my comments on the second thread quoted by hbaumhardt, above, but it's fair to say that I haven't any regrets about going back to the Elise.
It depends how you get your thrills, though. The Elise is a better driver's car, IMHO, but the straight line performance does feel a bit limp after the Griffith.
...and for what it's worth, the Elise seems to be better at pulling chicks, but the Griffith was better at keeping them happy once you've pulled - less likely to end up with a ruined hairdo while someone takes 5 minutes to erect the hood in a flash storm, no risk of numb bum after a 200 mile trip, or flashing your knickers as you struggle to get out.
>> Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 22 April 20:07
It depends how you get your thrills, though. The Elise is a better driver's car, IMHO, but the straight line performance does feel a bit limp after the Griffith.
...and for what it's worth, the Elise seems to be better at pulling chicks, but the Griffith was better at keeping them happy once you've pulled - less likely to end up with a ruined hairdo while someone takes 5 minutes to erect the hood in a flash storm, no risk of numb bum after a 200 mile trip, or flashing your knickers as you struggle to get out.
>> Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 22 April 20:07
Thanks for the pointers and the links guys. It pretty much confirms what I was expecting.
I would want to use the Elise for occasional commutes to work, the odd track day (which I have stuggled to enjoy in the Griff)and weekend drives. The only bit that slightly concerns me is how uncomfortable any lengthy motorway drives would be (and don't say take the back-roads - time doesn't allow it every time, plus the other half gets nervous!)
By the way can you get a decent "weekend-away" bag stowed in the boot? (and I'm talking a girl's weekend-away bag not a blokes)
Cheers
I would want to use the Elise for occasional commutes to work, the odd track day (which I have stuggled to enjoy in the Griff)and weekend drives. The only bit that slightly concerns me is how uncomfortable any lengthy motorway drives would be (and don't say take the back-roads - time doesn't allow it every time, plus the other half gets nervous!)
By the way can you get a decent "weekend-away" bag stowed in the boot? (and I'm talking a girl's weekend-away bag not a blokes)
Cheers
I went from Cerb to elise to Exige (s1) V8 Esprit to Griff back to Cerb then Exige(s2).One of the most important things for me was reliability. I've never broken down in any of my Lotus (4 in total) and the running costs are a lot more reasonable. I will take my Lotus cars on track with confidence where as my Tivs always felt like a bit of gamble. Last straw for me was meeting a good few friends at Le Mans in 04 to find that most of them had not bought there Tiv's because they were not confident about covering that sought of distance-sought of defeats the object really.
Steve
Steve
ukhmartin said:
By the way can you get a decent "weekend-away" bag stowed in the boot? (and I'm talking a girl's weekend-away bag not a blokes)
Erm, yes, more or less.
Nowhere near as much space as the Griffith (which has all that space behind the seats, too, of course), but I've done long weekends touring Scotland and Cornwall with my Elise+girlfriend. You have to be a bit more careful about how you pack, and we ended up using every inch of spare space, but it is doable. Just.
I had a Chimaera 500 which as you say, was disappointing on track. Sounded fanastic, but moved to a Cerbera 4.5RR. This was better on track, but very expensive on tyres/brakes/servicing and still way too lardy, so sold and got a proper track/race car. Then my wife bought a standard Elise. This handled way better on road and track than any TVR but was slow. One 200bhp Honda conversion later and it was perfect - civilised, fast up to licence losing speed on road, but a delight on B roads and entertaining on track without wearing anything out. Now for sale because she wants an MPV :-(
My suggestion is to go for a more powerful-than-standard Elise, otherwise it *will* feel slow, say 160+ bhp. Or her car is still for sale!
Danny
My suggestion is to go for a more powerful-than-standard Elise, otherwise it *will* feel slow, say 160+ bhp. Or her car is still for sale!
Danny
My next job for the Griff was the suspension, however I wasn't convinced from the TVR forums that this would transform the handling to a level where you weren't still gripping the steering wheel with white knuckels! Also, being a 12 yr old 4.0l version the chassis is starting to become a concern . . plus there's no air-con and you feel like you're in an oven when the weather actually gets hot!
. . . and yes I've looked closely at upgrading to a 5.0l with air-con but my gut reaction is an Elise appears less hassle and more enjoyable to drive (in fact following a brief test-drive, for me, it was more enjoyable to drive). More akin to the Westfield I used to own - but weather-proof and substantial enough that the missus might consider getting into!
Unfortunatley (IMHO) the Elise doesn't have the looks nor the sound of Griff - which may be the sacrifice that has to be made.
. . . and yes I've looked closely at upgrading to a 5.0l with air-con but my gut reaction is an Elise appears less hassle and more enjoyable to drive (in fact following a brief test-drive, for me, it was more enjoyable to drive). More akin to the Westfield I used to own - but weather-proof and substantial enough that the missus might consider getting into!
Unfortunatley (IMHO) the Elise doesn't have the looks nor the sound of Griff - which may be the sacrifice that has to be made.
dannylt said:
My suggestion is to go for a more powerful-than-standard Elise, otherwise it *will* feel slow, say 160+ bhp.
I'm afraid even the quicker Elises will seem slow in comparison of sraight line grunt. I went for an S160 for this very reason, but the lack of torque still makes it feel pretty gutless. The Toyota engined S2 is no better in this respect and I suspect (though I've never driven one) that the Honda VTEC is the same - again, it's not an engine renowned for its torque. Not sure what the supercharged cars are like...I'm toying with the idea of the TurboTechnics conversion to find out.
The Elise's saving grace is that the handling is so much better that it can carry far more speed through corners than the Griffith...you don't need the acceleration so much, because you never had to slow down in the first place!
Like you, ukhmartin, I considered fitting Nitron suspension to the Griffith in an attempt to tame the handling but wasn't convinced that it would make enough difference. There is definitely a problem with the standard dampers on the car - it can get very unsettled under certain, specific circumstances (variations in camber on a less than perfect surface whilst overtaking gave me one or two serious brown trouser moments!), but I think the problems go deeper than that, to basic steering geometry. I'm sure you could significantly improve the car, but it would still be no Lotus!
On the subject of boot space, I did the Stelvio trip (nine days) with SWMBO, and got all we needed in quite easily.
The way to do it is to have a weekend bag that folds flat. Use the boot as a suitcase, packing in Tesco bags and using all the nooks and crannies. Then when you get out of the car, take in your bag only what you need for the night.
Jobs a goodun.
Phil.
The way to do it is to have a weekend bag that folds flat. Use the boot as a suitcase, packing in Tesco bags and using all the nooks and crannies. Then when you get out of the car, take in your bag only what you need for the night.
Jobs a goodun.
Phil.
I've not done a head to head but I'd be surprised if a NA Honda Elise couldn't see off a Griff in a straight line. From the RR results I have seen for Griff's they don't have much more power and they have far more weight. That said a Griff will always feel fast because of the torque.
I agree that on a dragstrip it might well be a close-run thing, but standing-start performance stats are only a small part of the picture.
People tend to focus on 0-60 or 0-100 times. Period road tests give the Griffith as 4.2 seconds to 60 and 10.2 seconds to 100 and I agree that a Honda Elise would probably be somewhere close to those figures.
In roadgoing use, it isn't so much the standing start acceleration that is important as much as mid-range, in-gear acceleration. In an Elise, if you have a clear road, you don't need acceleration because you can carry the speed. Realistically, the time you most need it is to overtake. Where the Griffith scores is that you can be cruising in 4th or 5th and if an overtaking opportunity presents itself, you simply pull out and plant the throttle. Engine revs are pretty much irrelevant, so you don't need to think about how many gears you need to drop to take best advantage of the powerband without bouncing off the rev limiter half-way through the overtaking manoeuvre!
I've not driven a Honda Elise, but I have recently driven a Honda Civic Type R and it was disappointing...sure, it was reasonably quick if you thrash the nads off it, but the midrange was non-existent. My everyday shopping trolley (a Seat Leon Cupra) feels much quicker, despite being 20bhp down on paper, because the turbocharger gives it much more mid-range torque. This is born out by several road going encounters with Civic Type R's, where the Leon has had no difficulty despite the CTR being quicker on paper.
It's easy to dismiss the poor old Griffith as only having 280-odd horsepower (340 if you are daft enough to believe TVR
) in a 1065kg chassis (so only about 245bhp/tonne, with a 75kg driver - pretty much identical to what you would expect from a nat. asp. Honda Elise, by my estimate), but the effects of 5 litres-worth of torque can be quite impressive in real-world driving conditions.
I'd be very interested to see a full set of performance stats for a Honda Elise (or a supercharged K-series, for that matter), showing in gear acceleration times, if anyone has seen any published...it would make for a more interesting and meaningful comparison.
...having said all which, I still think that the Elise is so superior as a driving machine that no level of acceleration from a TVR would compensate, for me.
>> Edited by Sam_68 on Sunday 23 April 12:41
People tend to focus on 0-60 or 0-100 times. Period road tests give the Griffith as 4.2 seconds to 60 and 10.2 seconds to 100 and I agree that a Honda Elise would probably be somewhere close to those figures.
In roadgoing use, it isn't so much the standing start acceleration that is important as much as mid-range, in-gear acceleration. In an Elise, if you have a clear road, you don't need acceleration because you can carry the speed. Realistically, the time you most need it is to overtake. Where the Griffith scores is that you can be cruising in 4th or 5th and if an overtaking opportunity presents itself, you simply pull out and plant the throttle. Engine revs are pretty much irrelevant, so you don't need to think about how many gears you need to drop to take best advantage of the powerband without bouncing off the rev limiter half-way through the overtaking manoeuvre!
I've not driven a Honda Elise, but I have recently driven a Honda Civic Type R and it was disappointing...sure, it was reasonably quick if you thrash the nads off it, but the midrange was non-existent. My everyday shopping trolley (a Seat Leon Cupra) feels much quicker, despite being 20bhp down on paper, because the turbocharger gives it much more mid-range torque. This is born out by several road going encounters with Civic Type R's, where the Leon has had no difficulty despite the CTR being quicker on paper.
It's easy to dismiss the poor old Griffith as only having 280-odd horsepower (340 if you are daft enough to believe TVR
) in a 1065kg chassis (so only about 245bhp/tonne, with a 75kg driver - pretty much identical to what you would expect from a nat. asp. Honda Elise, by my estimate), but the effects of 5 litres-worth of torque can be quite impressive in real-world driving conditions. I'd be very interested to see a full set of performance stats for a Honda Elise (or a supercharged K-series, for that matter), showing in gear acceleration times, if anyone has seen any published...it would make for a more interesting and meaningful comparison.
...having said all which, I still think that the Elise is so superior as a driving machine that no level of acceleration from a TVR would compensate, for me.
>> Edited by Sam_68 on Sunday 23 April 12:41
There were a couple of Griffiths (or maybe Chimeras, sorry!) at the LOT day at Silverstone last month.
Sounded great when they started up in the garage, no exhaust/induction combo is ever going to compete with that!
Left us all for dead of the straights.
Looked quite wobbly in the bends though and one of the guys told me he was struggling to keep up with me round the hairpins at the end of the cool down lap!
Simon
Sounded great when they started up in the garage, no exhaust/induction combo is ever going to compete with that!
Left us all for dead of the straights.
Looked quite wobbly in the bends though and one of the guys told me he was struggling to keep up with me round the hairpins at the end of the cool down lap!
Simon
simonk said:
There were a couple of Griffiths (or maybe Chimeras, sorry!) at the LOT day at Silverstone last month.
Sounded great when they started up in the garage, no exhaust/induction combo is ever going to compete with that!
Left us all for dead of the straights.
Looked quite wobbly in the bends though and one of the guys told me he was struggling to keep up with me round the hairpins at the end of the cool down lap!
Simon
there's no doubt that a std chim or griff can be quite unruly in the bends .. however it doesn't take much to make them fairly competent. Naturally an Elise is going to be lovely straight out of the box and probably sublime with a bit of tinkering .. but don't rule the TVRs out completely especially if you only do a smattering of track days and most of your other driving is road based as discussed earlier.
If there's a track day soon where I come across any Elises in my 110k mile V8S i'll be sure to get the reaction of the Lotus drivers. I had a Caterham owner come up to me once at Elvington asking what I'd done to my car that he had to let me past .. so TVRs *can* be made to go round bendy bits, just that it takes a bit more tinkering than with an Elise.
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