What are the differences between a 160s and 111s MK1 Elise?
Discussion
I am sure it's been asked before but could anyone list the main differences? is it true the 160s is not useable around town? I used to have a 111s and loved the close box on it - does the 160 suffer from not having this? has anyone put a close box in their 160s and was it expensive and did improve the car?
all help and advise most appreciated
cheers
TG
all help and advise most appreciated
cheers
TG
turboguru said:
I am sure it's been asked before but could anyone list the main differences? is it true the 160s is not useable around town? I used to have a 111s and loved the close box on it - does the 160 suffer from not having this? has anyone put a close box in their 160s and was it expensive and did improve the car?
all help and advise most appreciated
cheers
TG
all help and advise most appreciated
cheers
TG
as different as chalk and cheese.
i've had a 111S and now have a lairy SVA Sport 160.
if you want an easy daily driver, go for the 111S... if you want some more agressive and characterful, get a S160.
the differences are numerous in terms of spec... but then you get involved with the whole can-of-worms over which S160 you are talking about!
turboguru said:
I am sure it's been asked before but could anyone list the main differences?
See www.elises.co.uk for full info on both models. The main mechanical difference is the engine & gearbox, the 111S has a 143bhp VVC unit with a CR 'box, and the 160 has a 158bhp (160PS) unit with a standard 'box. The power delivery is very different, with the 111S having a more linear spread of torque and power, and the 160 being more peaky with the real power coming in over 4k rpm and revving to 7k+ for peak power.
turboguru said:
is it true the 160s is not useable around town?
Not 100% true, no. The SVA cars tend to be worse than the later WVTA cars, read the elises.co.uk blurb for details. Basically some are better than others, and it depends on how you drive and how much it bothers you. The lumpiness varies from car to car, some are fine, others total dogs. It can be cured completely with verniers and a remap with an Emerald ECU.
turboguru said:
has anyone put a close box in their 160s and was it expensive and did improve the car?
Yes, several guys on SELOC have, and a few on here I believe. Obviously the plus point is that it gets you up into the 'working' range of the cams more quickly with shorter gearing, but you lose the lower rpm top gear cruise of the standard box. Personally I found the regular box fine, and liked the longer 5th for motorwarys.
Edited by S Works on Wednesday 28th June 15:39
The fundamental difference is that the 160 is a conventionally tuned version of the K-series engine, whereas the 111S uses variable valve timing. Without wanting to bore you with the technical explanation, fixed cam timing inevitably suffers from poor low-end and midrange power output when you use more extreme cam profiles, whereas variable vale timing, to some extent allows you to have the best of both worlds large valve lift/overlap for good breathing at high revs, with lower lift/overlap at low revs for tractability and torque.
As a result, the 111S is much more driveable in town traffic and the 160's can, it has to be said, be a bit of a pain when queuing in traffic (even on a WVTA car, like mine).
Unless you get upgraded ECU and vernier cam adjustment, it will tend to kangaroo at low revs (<3,000 rpm) if you try to 'creep' at small throttle openings because, to be frank, Lotus made an absolutely lousy job with the standard mapping, and the idle speed is set at 1,100 rpm (equal to about 6 mph in first gear), so it really doesn't like going slower than this.
The plus side is that, as Ajay says, the 160 really does have a much more aggressive and sporting character when you get a clear twisty road or a race track.
Personally, I wouldn't recommend a 160 as an eveyday driver for the commute to work, but would say that it is much more exciting as a weekend toy for track days and Sunday morning thrashes.
My 160 has a close ratio box fitted. It improves the car a great deal, in my opinion, since it makes 5th a genuinely useable gear instead of just an overdrive for cruising. The standard box is geared for 22.9 mph/1000 rpm in top, so at the 160's rev limit of 7750 rpm it would be pulling 177mph - clearly impossible with only 160bhp due to the aerodynamic drag. The close ratio box gives 19.4 mph/1000rpm, so it is still overdriven (it would be trying to pull 150mph at the rev limit), but the peak torque of the 160 engine occurs at 5,000 rpm (equal to 97mph in top, on the close ratio box), so top gear is genuinely useful for speeds over about 85-90 mph where the standard 5th would feel a little flat.
It does mean that motorway cruising is done at about 4,500 revs, though, which can become a little wearing with the sports exhaust. But then if you are looking for a motorway cruiser, you shouldn't really be buying an Elise of any description!
My car is for sale on E-bay and in the pistonheads classifieds at the moment (the black one with the link to the E-bay auction), so if you are quick you could experience it for yourself!
As a result, the 111S is much more driveable in town traffic and the 160's can, it has to be said, be a bit of a pain when queuing in traffic (even on a WVTA car, like mine).
Unless you get upgraded ECU and vernier cam adjustment, it will tend to kangaroo at low revs (<3,000 rpm) if you try to 'creep' at small throttle openings because, to be frank, Lotus made an absolutely lousy job with the standard mapping, and the idle speed is set at 1,100 rpm (equal to about 6 mph in first gear), so it really doesn't like going slower than this.
The plus side is that, as Ajay says, the 160 really does have a much more aggressive and sporting character when you get a clear twisty road or a race track.
Personally, I wouldn't recommend a 160 as an eveyday driver for the commute to work, but would say that it is much more exciting as a weekend toy for track days and Sunday morning thrashes.
My 160 has a close ratio box fitted. It improves the car a great deal, in my opinion, since it makes 5th a genuinely useable gear instead of just an overdrive for cruising. The standard box is geared for 22.9 mph/1000 rpm in top, so at the 160's rev limit of 7750 rpm it would be pulling 177mph - clearly impossible with only 160bhp due to the aerodynamic drag. The close ratio box gives 19.4 mph/1000rpm, so it is still overdriven (it would be trying to pull 150mph at the rev limit), but the peak torque of the 160 engine occurs at 5,000 rpm (equal to 97mph in top, on the close ratio box), so top gear is genuinely useful for speeds over about 85-90 mph where the standard 5th would feel a little flat.
It does mean that motorway cruising is done at about 4,500 revs, though, which can become a little wearing with the sports exhaust. But then if you are looking for a motorway cruiser, you shouldn't really be buying an Elise of any description!
My car is for sale on E-bay and in the pistonheads classifieds at the moment (the black one with the link to the E-bay auction), so if you are quick you could experience it for yourself!
thanks guys very useful advise here, so in theory if I get a 111s with a sports exhaust, a decent cold air filter and a chip it could be faster on the road as such? The fact you can't use a 160s every day does put me off a bit as it would be my only car. On the other hand I have already had a 111s so I am worried it would seem boring to me having another one. Maybe I should just put more in and get a 111R? I know one thing for sure I need to sell my 996tt as its time I stopped messing around with cash and saved for a nice house so I figure the best thing to do is get another Elise. I had one in 1997 not long after they were out and it spent more time in the garage than on the road but then my 111s I had in 2000 was fantastic and for 12-13k is a lot of car for the money.
Thanks again guys, its a tricky one as all are such amazing cars.
Thanks again guys, its a tricky one as all are such amazing cars.
Keep in mind there is a difference between a 160 (basically a 111S with the 160 engine) and a full Sport 160. In total I understand that there are 4 variations of 160.
SVA Sport 160 (limited number)
WTVA Sport 160
In addition after July 00 (although this hasn't been confirmed totally):
A WTVA 160 which has 2 options the interior and the supension, if it has the suspension its then badged a Sport 160 even if it doesn't have the interior. You could also get a 160 with a Sport 160 interior which would just be badged 160.
I'd also add that they aren't that difficult for a daily drive Elise either, just keep in mind that the service intervals are shorter (6,000 miles, standard elise 9,000). The lumpy idle is just pure character, which is exactly what owning an Elise is about!
SVA Sport 160 (limited number)
WTVA Sport 160
In addition after July 00 (although this hasn't been confirmed totally):
A WTVA 160 which has 2 options the interior and the supension, if it has the suspension its then badged a Sport 160 even if it doesn't have the interior. You could also get a 160 with a Sport 160 interior which would just be badged 160.
I'd also add that they aren't that difficult for a daily drive Elise either, just keep in mind that the service intervals are shorter (6,000 miles, standard elise 9,000). The lumpy idle is just pure character, which is exactly what owning an Elise is about!
Hollywood Wheels said:
The Sport 160 isn't ideal as a daily driver. Mine suffers badly from the kangeroo syndrome. It's noisy, harsh, very bare, and needs servicing more often. I wouldn't change it for the world. If i was you i would buy one as soon as possible.....
That some very valid points you got there
Edited by cej on Thursday 29th June 21:36
Basically don't be ghey, go out and get yourself a nice black Sport 160 as soon as possible. Every second you delay is denying you one of lifes truly enriching driving experiences.
Girls will think you're a racing driver and go weak at the knees, mothers with small children will run for cover when they hear you start it up or approach from afar, old people will start talking about Spitfires and the Battle of Britain, and grown men will shed a tear wishing they'd kept it in their pants for another 12 months so they could have owned one before being lured into the realms of MPV's and children by a once beautiful woman who's arse has become not indistinct from the side of a bus, and who is beginning to sport a beard.
Girls will think you're a racing driver and go weak at the knees, mothers with small children will run for cover when they hear you start it up or approach from afar, old people will start talking about Spitfires and the Battle of Britain, and grown men will shed a tear wishing they'd kept it in their pants for another 12 months so they could have owned one before being lured into the realms of MPV's and children by a once beautiful woman who's arse has become not indistinct from the side of a bus, and who is beginning to sport a beard.
Edited by S works on Thursday 29th June 23:50
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