Lotus Paint Problems

[mudplugger]

The paint is starting to fall off my 4 year old Elise, leaving an ugly blemish several inches across on the passenger door. I may just be unlucky, or it may be something that could happen to anyone who buys an Elise.

I won't take up bandwidth with the whole story here, but it's all on my website at www.LotsOfTroubleUsuallySerious.com - please take a look and, if you are experiencing problems with your Lotus, let me know and I'll post them there as a warning to others. If you know anybody who is thinking of buying a Lotus, you may wish to refer them to this website first.

[111KAB]

Think you may have a one off problem here but cannot understand why your dealer isn't seeking to rectify the problem. Have you checked on the legal position? ....'fit for the purpose etc'
111KAB

[risotto]

Sorry to hear about your paint, I presume you've ruled out vandalism/environmental factors? Unfortunately, I think issues of this nature are just part of the ownership experience.

Lotus seem to be in the awkward position of being too big to lavish attention on every car while at the same time being too small to get funding for proper quality control systems.

Your dealer should fix this problem but to be honest, it may be simpler to just pay a couple of hundred quid and get it fixed yourself rather than spend your time printing stickers and making websites.

I suppose if you want a low-volume well built car, you may have to look to smaller companies like LCC, etc. Otherwise, you're forced to sacrifice some degree of individuality and buy from one of the major manufacturers.

Edited by risotto on Monday 23 April 13:31

[Anatol]

You mention on your website that you have had paint professionals examine the damage and give the opinion that it has to be a manufacturing fault.

Get that in writing, and give Lotus an opportunity to rectify the problem or explain why they deny liability. If the response is unsatisfactory and you're really sure they're in the wrong, get quotes for a 3rd party repair (likely a bare-GRP respray) and then issue proceedings for a small claim (which you can now do online with an e-court).

HTH

Tol

[uldis]

I have the same problem, although in my case the paint bubbles are much deeper, like coming from the gelcoat.
Lots of them and the dealer has tried to repair them a couple of times and now doesn't want to have to do anything more with the car.
They said they tried to fix them on "good will", and that should be enough. They were wasting too much time and money with the car.

Talked to a friend of mine who has bought several parts (like doors, bonnet, etc) from breakers and he says basically all of them are bubbled.

Looked around in the net and it's due to an osmotic effect, humidity basically getting in through the fibres, more commonly seen in boats.


So, if you find a solution for this, let me know, as I was fighting for this before and am now absolutely disappointed/discouraged. Even a full respray won't fix it, it needs all the paint scraped off until below the bubbles level, for it to be resprayed.

Been quoted £3.5K for that.
Won't do it.

[S Works]

I'm afraid this is a story I've heard of too often since buying my cars (but fortunately have not suffered as a victim). IIRC the reason I heard was that the gel coat has not been left to settle before painting, hence bubbling occurs as a result of gas escaping from the GRP which in turn causes the paint to fall off.

Best of luck.

[apprentice]

I suspect that the generation and proliferation of such a website will do yourself no favours when it comes to a potential goodwill gesture!

Good luck!

apprentice

[21TonyK]

apprentice said:

I suspect that the generation and proliferation of such a website will do yourself no favours when it comes to a potential goodwill gesture!

Good luck!

apprentice

Have to agree, whatever the problem is doing this sort of thing really does not help you solve it. I understand your frustration, I had a warranty issue on a car which could have cost me £10K. With careful and tactful negotiation the manufacturer stepped in and sorted the problem overriding the dealers decision.

It's a bit like complaining loudly in a restaurant, the only people you're pissing off and the people who can solve the problem.

Edited by 21TonyK on Monday 23 April 17:30

[uldis]

In my case, I have no problem on telling it as it is.
In fact, I told the dealer I was going to name and shame them, and have done ever since. I am past the point of negotiations.

Next respray will be on me. And I think I'm actually going to ensure I get down to the gelcoat before I deliver it to the painter so that there's not even the temptation to leave a bit of paint there and paint on top.

Now, it started happening on some resprayed panels at the beginning, but is now happening on all the car, even parts that haven't been touched from new. And as I said, a friend of mine has seen lots of second hand parts the same.
Maybe the car is just not made for this sort of humidity...

[mahju]

21TonyK said:

apprentice said:

I suspect that the generation and proliferation of such a website will do yourself no favours when it comes to a potential goodwill gesture!

Good luck!

apprentice

Have to agree, whatever the problem is doing this sort of thing really does not help you solve it. I understand your frustration, I had a warranty issue on a car which could have cost me £10K. With careful and tactful negotiation the manufacturer stepped in and sorted the problem overriding the dealers decision.

It's a bit like complaining loudly in a restaurant, the only people you're pissing off and the people who can solve the problem.

Edited by 21TonyK on Monday 23 April 17:30

Thirded - I had an engine issue 3 days out of warrenty, and talked directly with Lotus and had my issue fixed. I think that by going public you've backed Lotus into a corner in that admitting any type of negligence on their part now would leave them open to many more peeople with paint problems, be they produciton faults or environmental since.

Considering that you wont get 'justice', is your approach now name and shame just for vengenace?

[mudplugger]

111KAB said:

Think you may have a one off problem here but cannot understand why your dealer isn't seeking to rectify the problem. Have you checked on the legal position? ....'fit for the purpose etc'
111KAB

The dealer claims to have contacted Lotus and says that they do not wish to accept responsibility.

I will check the legal position as you suggest. I have already had a private email explaining to me that my "statutory rights exceed any warranty terms", so there may be hope down this route. To be honest though, I would prefer a resolution without resorting to lawyers (although if the cost is high enough, I will at least be able to engage them and recover their costs rather than having to pursue it through small claims myself).

[mudplugger]

risotto said:

Sorry to hear about your paint, I presume you've ruled out vandalism/environmental factors? Unfortunately, I think issues of this nature are just part of the ownership experience.

Lotus seem to be in the awkward position of being too big to lavish attention on every car while at the same time being too small to get funding for proper quality control systems.

Your dealer should fix this problem but to be honest, it may be simpler to just pay a couple of hundred quid and get it fixed yourself rather than spend your time printing stickers and making websites.

I suppose if you want a low-volume well built car, you may have to look to smaller companies like LCC, etc. Otherwise, you're forced to sacrifice some degree of individuality and buy from one of the major manufacturers.

Edited by risotto on Monday 23 April 13:31

The car has spent most of its life parked in my garage, before being relegated to the drive to make way for my son's kart. The paint problem started long before it got to the driveway. In any event, if it was down to where I park or similar then it would not be present in one local area. If it was vandalism, there would not be a similar area just beginning to bubble up 12 inches back on the same door.

I don't accept your argument regarding Lotus's position. Quite simply, if you want to be a car manufacturer then you must do so to a "reasonable" standard (that word being open to the interpretation of a judge). In most people's minds however paint falling off this while it is still perfectly attached to my (somewhat older) motorhome is not reasonable. Indeed, a friend has a 30 year old Ginetta that still has its paint attached!

I do not propose to spend my money fixing something which, as you say, I should not have to pay to do; therein lies the slippery slope to acceptance of poor quality goods and poor service, something that we, as consumers, should be protected from.

[mudplugger]

Anatol said:

You mention on your website that you have had paint professionals examine the damage and give the opinion that it has to be a manufacturing fault.

Get that in writing, and give Lotus an opportunity to rectify the problem or explain why they deny liability. If the response is unsatisfactory and you're really sure they're in the wrong, get quotes for a 3rd party repair (likely a bare-GRP respray) and then issue proceedings for a small claim (which you can now do online with an e-court).

HTH

Tol

Its an opinion that has, I am assured, already been verbally expressed to them by the service department of a franchised Lotus dealer. Said dealer had my car on their premises for two days thus giving their bodyshop ample opportunity to exmaine the paint defect (as well as mess up the service).

[mudplugger]

uldis said:

I have the same problem, although in my case the paint bubbles are much deeper, like coming from the gelcoat.
Lots of them and the dealer has tried to repair them a couple of times and now doesn't want to have to do anything more with the car.
They said they tried to fix them on "good will", and that should be enough. They were wasting too much time and money with the car.

Talked to a friend of mine who has bought several parts (like doors, bonnet, etc) from breakers and he says basically all of them are bubbled.

Looked around in the net and it's due to an osmotic effect, humidity basically getting in through the fibres, more commonly seen in boats.


So, if you find a solution for this, let me know, as I was fighting for this before and am now absolutely disappointed/discouraged. Even a full respray won't fix it, it needs all the paint scraped off until below the bubbles level, for it to be resprayed.

Been quoted £3.5K for that.
Won't do it.

Sorry to hear that you have a similar problem. Mine is unfortunately getting worse in that more bubbles are starting further back on the same door. I may be 'lucky' in that only one panel is affected???

I used to have a GRP cruiser, and and the time I owned it, it was somewhat older than my Elise. However, despite this (and spending most of its life *in* water) it had no major problems with osmosis. Certainly its not something that should be expected after just 2-4 years, especially as the resin should be protected from the moisture by a coat of paint (its what steel relies on after all).

Like you, I'm not prepared to spend my money fixing a fault that is quite clearly somebody else's responsibility.

[mudplugger]

S Works said:

I'm afraid this is a story I've heard of too often since buying my cars (but fortunately have not suffered as a victim). IIRC the reason I heard was that the gel coat has not been left to settle before painting, hence bubbling occurs as a result of gas escaping from the GRP which in turn causes the paint to fall off.

Best of luck.

So its down to a basic lack of quality control? In this event, surely Lotus should be wanting to rectify the problem, not denying responsibility for it (as they apparently did when approached by their franchised dealer)?

[mudplugger]

21TonyK said:

apprentice said:

I suspect that the generation and proliferation of such a website will do yourself no favours when it comes to a potential goodwill gesture!

Good luck!

apprentice

Have to agree, whatever the problem is doing this sort of thing really does not help you solve it. I understand your frustration, I had a warranty issue on a car which could have cost me £10K. With careful and tactful negotiation the manufacturer stepped in and sorted the problem overriding the dealers decision.

It's a bit like complaining loudly in a restaurant, the only people you're pissing off and the people who can solve the problem.

Edited by 21TonyK on Monday 23 April 17:30

Please don't misunderstand me here:

1) I took photographs of the problem (high resolution versions of the first two on my website) and sent them to a Lotus franchised dealer. They informed me that they contacted Lotus, sent them the photos, and that Lotus refused to help.

2) I gave the car to that same Lotus franchised dealer for 2 days (to mess up and do the wrong service on it, but that's another story). During this time their bodyshop had ample opportunity to look at the car, and indeed one of their staff expressed the opinion to me that "it's clear enough, there was moisure on the panel when it was sprayed, Lotus should pay for us to fix it." Lotus declined to do this.

3) I sent Lotus two emails and wrote them one letter, referring them to the photos and requesting a reply within 7 days. They wrote back asking for 21 days to reply ... and then failed to do so even within their own deadline (and still haven't).

I really wish it had been possible to sort this the easy way, without hassle, but from the evidence at my disposal it seems that Lotus do not wish to do so.

I wish to avoid legal action if possible, but will do so as a last resort if necessary. Before that of course I must obtain evidence from at least one expert witness, which will merely serve to increase the inconvenience to me and (when the matter is eventually concluded) the cost to Lotus. If we can achieve a resolution without resorting to court action, I'd like to. Unlike the court route, that may even be possible this year.

[mudplugger]

mahju said:

Thirded - I had an engine issue 3 days out of warrenty, and talked directly with Lotus and had my issue fixed. I think that by going public you've backed Lotus into a corner in that admitting any type of negligence on their part now would leave them open to many more peeople with paint problems, be they produciton faults or environmental since.

Considering that you wont get 'justice', is your approach now name and shame just for vengenace?

I'd love to have sorted this the easy way but, as you will hopefully see from my other posts, it doesn't seem that Lotus wish to do this even when approached by their own franchised dealer.

Obtaining 'justice' means a conclusion that is in compliance with the law; I have little doubt that such a position will eventually be reached. You are perhaps mistaking a 'just' conclusion for an 'equitable' one?

[S Works]

mudplugger said:

S Works said:

I'm afraid this is a story I've heard of too often since buying my cars (but fortunately have not suffered as a victim). IIRC the reason I heard was that the gel coat has not been left to settle before painting, hence bubbling occurs as a result of gas escaping from the GRP which in turn causes the paint to fall off.

Best of luck.

So its down to a basic lack of quality control? In this event, surely Lotus should be wanting to rectify the problem, not denying responsibility for it (as they apparently did when approached by their franchised dealer)?

Without knowing the in's and out's of your specific case, if it were to be a problem of that nature, then one would assume that it's something that the manufacturer would seek to redress.

[111KAB]

Think you are going over the top talking about judges and employing lawyers. Just keep it cheap and simple -that way if you lose - which I suspect you won't - you will not be faced with a massive bill. Get three genuine quotes for the re-spray and, if you wish, get an expert analysis. Submit all to on-line Court and copy submission to the dealer and Lotus. I would be very suprised if you don't receive contact from one of them before you appear in local court.
111KAB

[mahju]

From the replies above, you seem to have gone to a franchied dealer to try and get this sorted. I called Lotus direct (got number from Yell, called them up, asked to speak to warrenty), and the dealer also called them, as we got it sorted.

If you're dealer is less than perfect, then you should try the direct route (although your name and shame may have closed that door).