Why am I so against a 'K' series?
Discussion
I have been looking at S2 Elise and when ever I see one that is not a Toyota driven machine I skip over it!
If you are buying on a budget (like I am) then the 'K' series seems like the better option at the moment as you can pick up a real gem for under 15k.
Perhaps it is a combination of HGF stories and been uneducated about this machine. Can the PH Lotus members please put my mind at rest about the 'K' series engine or would you all advise me to go down the Toyota route and avoid the 'K' series?
What is so bad about the 'K' series or have I been brain washed?
If you are buying on a budget (like I am) then the 'K' series seems like the better option at the moment as you can pick up a real gem for under 15k.
Perhaps it is a combination of HGF stories and been uneducated about this machine. Can the PH Lotus members please put my mind at rest about the 'K' series engine or would you all advise me to go down the Toyota route and avoid the 'K' series?
What is so bad about the 'K' series or have I been brain washed?
I dunno why you have an aversion to the K series?!
Theres absoloutely nothing wrong with the trusty K! I remember speaking to a Lotus engineer who worked on the design of the elise at a hillclimb one time, he said to me that the K series is the best engine to have in the elise because thats what it was designed for from the start. The car was balanced to handle "right" with that engine.
Theres a lot of stuff talked about Head Gasket Failiure, but don't forget that no-ones going to log onto a forum and rant about how good their car is and how it's never had a HGF! You tend to only really hear about things that go wrong on forums like these.
The K series is a well known and proven engine thats been around for quite some time. They're lighter than the Toyota engine and have better torque characteristics. You can tune em more easily and I bet they don't cost as much to fix if they go wrong.
They also sound better in my opinion!
I've heard of a couple of 'Yota engines that have gone bang recently!
Theres absoloutely nothing wrong with the trusty K! I remember speaking to a Lotus engineer who worked on the design of the elise at a hillclimb one time, he said to me that the K series is the best engine to have in the elise because thats what it was designed for from the start. The car was balanced to handle "right" with that engine.
Theres a lot of stuff talked about Head Gasket Failiure, but don't forget that no-ones going to log onto a forum and rant about how good their car is and how it's never had a HGF! You tend to only really hear about things that go wrong on forums like these.
The K series is a well known and proven engine thats been around for quite some time. They're lighter than the Toyota engine and have better torque characteristics. You can tune em more easily and I bet they don't cost as much to fix if they go wrong.
They also sound better in my opinion!
I've heard of a couple of 'Yota engines that have gone bang recently!
To be honest, I'm not sure if this does go for the Toyota engine in the Elise, but you do often find that although Japanese engines are normally 100% reliable and strong, when they do go wrong that's it - you are bankrupt.
The K is a solid enough sod, and yet when it goes wrong, you can service it yourself with a Swiss Army Knife and a couple of copper washers.
Well, sort of....
The K is a solid enough sod, and yet when it goes wrong, you can service it yourself with a Swiss Army Knife and a couple of copper washers.
Well, sort of....
If you look at the LoT race series, most of the field are thrashing their k series within an inch of their lives. They are great little engines and easy to fix / replace if things go wrong. I would not be too worried about a good condition car. Get a PRT (pressure relief thermostat) fitted and the chances of HGF are drastically reduced.
The K series is fine and much maligned - the vvc particularly is quite torquey, and providing you keep an eye on the levels you can spot hgf pretty early. If you are unlucky it isn't that expensive to repair either, as long as you get it early and don't do too much damage. Apparently the S1 was more prone to hgf than the S2. Mine has done nearly 40k now with no problem at all, and I know of others on much higher mileages. Warming up is crucial however - not just the water temperature, but also the oil temp, and also "warming" down.......
I'm sure someone will be along to disagree pretty soon
I'm sure someone will be along to disagree pretty soon
I have the "K" Series engine & had hastle free motoring for 1 year & covered 14k miles in that time.
I then started getting very early signs of HGF & didnt hesitate in getting it repaired at the cost of £550 which in my opinion is fairly cheap motoring for the amount of mileage im doing. The engine itself is very reliable, but do realize where you are coming from because i was nervous about getting one with this engine aswel, but to be honest im glad i did go for the "K" Series & not the Toyota because if that goes wrong which im sure it may well do then you are looking at a huge bill in comparison to the Rover engine.
I then started getting very early signs of HGF & didnt hesitate in getting it repaired at the cost of £550 which in my opinion is fairly cheap motoring for the amount of mileage im doing. The engine itself is very reliable, but do realize where you are coming from because i was nervous about getting one with this engine aswel, but to be honest im glad i did go for the "K" Series & not the Toyota because if that goes wrong which im sure it may well do then you are looking at a huge bill in comparison to the Rover engine.
Edited by boobles on Monday 18th June 16:30
So whats peoples thoughts on this: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/154825.htm
Flame suit on.
The K series has major problems, imo. Heads that move, weak head dowels, long engine through bolts that stretch and can shear in the bottom mounting when being replaced requiring an engine strip down, and at the end of the day, the coolant capacity just isn't big enough, especially when the engine is placed in a mid-engined car for which it was never designed.
In the MG world the K serieses are forever suffering hgf. I don't know how anyone can claim to be able to repair them with a swiss army knife. A mate of mine has a garage business and he just cannot tell you how much money the k series has generated for the. The last hgf he told me about was in a Disco, the owner had continued to drive it. As a result, the entire coolant system was choked with mayonaisse, the rad, all pipes, the heater matrix, the lot. Effectively, the car was a write-off.
One of the MG mags has just concluded a monthly series of how to rebuild your K series. They're really quite complicated engines, with a unique 'ladder' type construction. The series in the mag seemed to go on for months, but I was quite shocked at the state of the engine they were rebuilding. I could understand it if they were rebuilding a 30 year old B series engine that had seen 300,000 miles in a variety of cars, but this was a relatively modern engine. I doubt if its age was in double figures nor its mileage in treble figures.
Mileages of 14 and 40k cannot be called high mileages by any stretch of the imagination and the fact that people speak in these terms speaks volumes. Come back when the engine has done 140k without probs, like practically any Japanese engine can do. Toyota build engines in their millions, and I bet there's barely a country on the planet that doesn't have toyotas running around. One or two going bang is nothing.
What really pisses me off from the MG perspective, is that back in the fifties MG tried to build and market a twin cam engine, and that was a disaster which constantly burnt holes in its pistons. The owners were often held responsible, but that was total nonsense. Fifty years later and MG are still selling cars with chocolate twin cam engines, and still the owners are often blamed, though no-one ever explains why these same owners have no trouble with other cars.
I totally accept that the engine is light and makes a good high performance or race engine and has good charecteristics, that provided you allow for rebuilds will serve you well. What you have to ask yourself is, are you happy driving or owning a car that has an engine that is a result of rubbish engineering (though bloody good on paper)
The K series has major problems, imo. Heads that move, weak head dowels, long engine through bolts that stretch and can shear in the bottom mounting when being replaced requiring an engine strip down, and at the end of the day, the coolant capacity just isn't big enough, especially when the engine is placed in a mid-engined car for which it was never designed.
In the MG world the K serieses are forever suffering hgf. I don't know how anyone can claim to be able to repair them with a swiss army knife. A mate of mine has a garage business and he just cannot tell you how much money the k series has generated for the. The last hgf he told me about was in a Disco, the owner had continued to drive it. As a result, the entire coolant system was choked with mayonaisse, the rad, all pipes, the heater matrix, the lot. Effectively, the car was a write-off.
One of the MG mags has just concluded a monthly series of how to rebuild your K series. They're really quite complicated engines, with a unique 'ladder' type construction. The series in the mag seemed to go on for months, but I was quite shocked at the state of the engine they were rebuilding. I could understand it if they were rebuilding a 30 year old B series engine that had seen 300,000 miles in a variety of cars, but this was a relatively modern engine. I doubt if its age was in double figures nor its mileage in treble figures.
Mileages of 14 and 40k cannot be called high mileages by any stretch of the imagination and the fact that people speak in these terms speaks volumes. Come back when the engine has done 140k without probs, like practically any Japanese engine can do. Toyota build engines in their millions, and I bet there's barely a country on the planet that doesn't have toyotas running around. One or two going bang is nothing.
What really pisses me off from the MG perspective, is that back in the fifties MG tried to build and market a twin cam engine, and that was a disaster which constantly burnt holes in its pistons. The owners were often held responsible, but that was total nonsense. Fifty years later and MG are still selling cars with chocolate twin cam engines, and still the owners are often blamed, though no-one ever explains why these same owners have no trouble with other cars.
I totally accept that the engine is light and makes a good high performance or race engine and has good charecteristics, that provided you allow for rebuilds will serve you well. What you have to ask yourself is, are you happy driving or owning a car that has an engine that is a result of rubbish engineering (though bloody good on paper)
To the OP...
The answer is simple. Like many of us, you're probably not hugely mechanically minded, can't fix it yourself, don't have an unlimited pot of cash to throw at a toy when it goes wrong, and you're seeking a 100% bomb-proof way to guarantee everything will be fine.
It won't, and you're being unrealistic.
The K-series is not without fault, but it's very well documented as to how you can minimise the risk of failure. If you want a bullet-proof engine, get the thing Honda'd.
Just get one and enjoy it before the summer goes and you're left wishing you'd done it sooner.
The answer is simple. Like many of us, you're probably not hugely mechanically minded, can't fix it yourself, don't have an unlimited pot of cash to throw at a toy when it goes wrong, and you're seeking a 100% bomb-proof way to guarantee everything will be fine.
It won't, and you're being unrealistic.
The K-series is not without fault, but it's very well documented as to how you can minimise the risk of failure. If you want a bullet-proof engine, get the thing Honda'd.
Just get one and enjoy it before the summer goes and you're left wishing you'd done it sooner.
I quite like the K series (my Elise is a 111R but I also have an MGF) but if we're being honest the K series *is* going to have HGF at some point. I'd love to say that it won't but realistically it will. (mine had it last year at 29,000 miles)
To be honest though I wouldn't let that put you off, it's not a terribly expensive job to fix, around £500ish is the norm.
Try both the 111R and the 111S though, some people prefer the power delivery of the R, some prefer the S. Personally I like the R cos 8600rpm with an ITG and Quicksilver exhaust sounds fantastic!!
To be honest though I wouldn't let that put you off, it's not a terribly expensive job to fix, around £500ish is the norm.
Try both the 111R and the 111S though, some people prefer the power delivery of the R, some prefer the S. Personally I like the R cos 8600rpm with an ITG and Quicksilver exhaust sounds fantastic!!
riwiho said:
So whats peoples thoughts on this: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/154825.htm
Doesn't look bad at all although that'll have a long-tail soft top which, from what I've heard, isn't as good as the short one (either in terms of waterproofing or ease of fitting and removal). Certainly my short soft-top has never leaked.The 111S Engine has nice power characteristics in that you don't have to trash it to get reasonable performance. It's also geared high enough to make motorway driving reasonably comfortable. I drove a 111R and a 111S and preferred the S, if you can afford both, drive both before you make up your mind.
I have had an S1 111S for the past 3 years and not had problems, you just need to be sensible when warming up etc as Stephanie Plum says.
If you're worried take the the AA breakdown insurance for £60/year which covers you for £500 which is the major part of the cost should you suffer HGF.
I really wouldn't be too worried, try the different models and go for the one that suits you.
If you're worried take the the AA breakdown insurance for £60/year which covers you for £500 which is the major part of the cost should you suffer HGF.
I really wouldn't be too worried, try the different models and go for the one that suits you.
I've done 30K+ miles on K-series Elises without incident, though in any event I don't find the idea of HGF too scary since I would happily fix it myself and solutions are available to prevent recurrence (decent aftermarket head gaskets, cooling mods, steel dowels etc.).
What would make sure that any future Elise I buy has a japanese engine, however, is the quality of the gearchange. The gearchange on the K-series cars is simply atrocious (even with linkage kits and/or quickshifts).
That on the Yota engined cars I've driven is a massive improvement.
The problem with the K-series as far as I'm concerned isn't the engine... it's the gearbox it's attached to!
What would make sure that any future Elise I buy has a japanese engine, however, is the quality of the gearchange. The gearchange on the K-series cars is simply atrocious (even with linkage kits and/or quickshifts).
That on the Yota engined cars I've driven is a massive improvement.
The problem with the K-series as far as I'm concerned isn't the engine... it's the gearbox it's attached to!
lamb jiblets said:
Have a read on this its way ahead of others.
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engin...
I really wish people would stop quoting that load of b********http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engin...
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