Discussion
LivinLaVidaLotus said:
Boggy said:
LivinLaVidaLotus said:
That's because it'll be a 2 seater to start, with the 2+2 to follow later 
I wouldn't put money on thatBoggy
But I'd put money on it the initial car will be a 3.5L 280 - 290bhp 2+2 but I might be wrong
Boggy
Boggy said:
LivinLaVidaLotus said:
Boggy said:
LivinLaVidaLotus said:
That's because it'll be a 2 seater to start, with the 2+2 to follow later
I wouldn't put money on thatBoggy
But I'd put money on it the initial car will be a 3.5L 280 - 290bhp 2+2 but I might be wrong
Boggy
LivinLaVidaLotus said:
That's because it'll be a 2 seater to start, with the 2+2 to follow later
I agree (that it will initially be sold as a 2 seater perhaps), but regardless, the Eagle will have the same chassis, so whatever they launch with will have to fit for future versions. From those pictures, it hardly looks much larger than a Europa, which in my book already makes it too small to capture the market it's supposed to. I just hope Lotus isn't going to bring out another Elise/Europa sized car, as that's not going to help them do much better than they are with the Europa.The more I think about the Eagle, the more I'm not sure. Even if it is an awesome car at the right price I'm really not sure of the market.
As a sports car with occasional rear seats then it will up square against the 911 and will loose - every car does, even the GTR, which by all accounts is awesome and a competitor to the Eagle, will find this out. If you have 40-60K to spend on this type of car you would be mad to go anywhere other than Porsche.
So it either needs to be a two seater, a genuine replacement for the Espirit and a step up option for Elise chassis owners or a genuine 4 seater. Well Lotus have said its neither, they have said if the Eagle stiffs then there will be no Espirit replacement, so it can't be that. And clearly its not a four seater...
I think in the last 5 years the market has moved significantly and I'm not sure the 2+2 market really exists. It used to exist as 4 seate saloons were always a bit compromised unless you went down the Scooby / Evo route, and there were plenty of people who didnt like the image. But now there are tonnes of really good genuine 4 seater options - RS4, RS6, plenty of AMG mercs etc. They are so competent and good that if you are a person with 50 grand that needs 4 seats, even occasionally then you would go and buy one of these not a 2+2 which is an immidiate compromise.
So, I guess I'm not convinced there is the market for the Eagle that Lotus seem to think there is. I'm sure its good, but it is going to have to be awesome and cheap to survive as its taking on some very big fish. I would have thought Lotus would have been better spending time developing the Espirit replacement first - core market stuff etc, in fact 1st year strategy thinking and then moving to the 2+2 type market.
Can't tell anything from the spy shots except that I think the styling will be more VX / Europa than Elise / Exige. In my view that is a good thing as the Elise / Exige styling is looking tired, but that would alienate Lotus's core market...
As a sports car with occasional rear seats then it will up square against the 911 and will loose - every car does, even the GTR, which by all accounts is awesome and a competitor to the Eagle, will find this out. If you have 40-60K to spend on this type of car you would be mad to go anywhere other than Porsche.
So it either needs to be a two seater, a genuine replacement for the Espirit and a step up option for Elise chassis owners or a genuine 4 seater. Well Lotus have said its neither, they have said if the Eagle stiffs then there will be no Espirit replacement, so it can't be that. And clearly its not a four seater...
I think in the last 5 years the market has moved significantly and I'm not sure the 2+2 market really exists. It used to exist as 4 seate saloons were always a bit compromised unless you went down the Scooby / Evo route, and there were plenty of people who didnt like the image. But now there are tonnes of really good genuine 4 seater options - RS4, RS6, plenty of AMG mercs etc. They are so competent and good that if you are a person with 50 grand that needs 4 seats, even occasionally then you would go and buy one of these not a 2+2 which is an immidiate compromise.
So, I guess I'm not convinced there is the market for the Eagle that Lotus seem to think there is. I'm sure its good, but it is going to have to be awesome and cheap to survive as its taking on some very big fish. I would have thought Lotus would have been better spending time developing the Espirit replacement first - core market stuff etc, in fact 1st year strategy thinking and then moving to the 2+2 type market.
Can't tell anything from the spy shots except that I think the styling will be more VX / Europa than Elise / Exige. In my view that is a good thing as the Elise / Exige styling is looking tired, but that would alienate Lotus's core market...
Twit said:
The more I think about the Eagle, the more I'm not sure. Even if it is an awesome car at the right price I'm really not sure of the market.
You make some interesting points. I tend to agree with you that a car with +2 occasional seats doesn't really cut the mustard, and would much prefer to see four useful seats. I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure I've heard that the Eagle will seat kids 'up to nine years' - in which case, it will be at least partially useful.Whilst you say anyone with that kind of money would be mad not to go with a Porsche, and then go on to mention a load of German metal, I think Lotus have always appealed to a slightly different kind of driver. Their emphasis has always been having a minimal amount of machine between the driver and the road, and that gives an entirely different drive to Porsche, AMG etc. To some extent they aren't trying to be a Porsche, because their approach to driving is radically different. TVR were the same - their cars were exciting, serious sports cars, but absolutely not Porsches. When they got the machines right, they sold very well.
For that matter, you could have applied the same logic to the Esprit - surely everyone would have bought a Ferrari? It didn't stop the Esprit from selling for decades.
In some sense I suspect Lotus have made their own niche.. there are thousands of ex-Elise owners who've had to give up their fun little sports car and buy something that is more 'grown up'. A reasonable proportion of those owners (including ones who've gone for Porches) are very much aware that the grown up option is not as involving and direct as an Elise. If the Eagle can cater for young families who need +2 seats and successful businessmen who need a bit more refinement than an Elise, there are quite a few people who'd love to return to the Lotus fold.
I do kind of agree with what you are saying, certainly about the core appeal of Lotus. However, for the Eagle and the Espirit probably, the cars need to appeal beyond the core Lotus market and into the market that would normally default to Porsche, BMW, AMG etc. I guess thats the point I was making, 5 years ago, with the exception of Porsche there was less choice - now there is huge amount of very competent 4 seat choice that makes the 2+2 a non-starter.
As for the Espirit I think it was exactly the Lotus core that made it a success, it offer Ferrari type go for half the price. The Eagle isnt going to do that, it seems it is going to offer Porsche, BM, AMG type go, and hoefully quality, but for the same price! That isnt going to work. My other worry for it is how it will be recieved; the Europa experience is a case in point. Lotus cocked up that launch well and truly but now the Europa is a really nice sorted car - more grown up than the Elise and less cartoon or geeky than the Exige. However, it gets slated because its 'softer', I can see the same happening with the Eagle.
I don't want to give the impression I'm down on the Eagle - I really hope that it is awesome and a massive success. I think there is a gap in the market that Lotus could fill, a much harder 3-5 litre two seater sports car in the true sense, price at 60K and I think it would fly, albeit not in huge volumes. I'm not sure a 2+2 is going to deliver this for Lotus, but I hope I'm wrong!
As for the Espirit I think it was exactly the Lotus core that made it a success, it offer Ferrari type go for half the price. The Eagle isnt going to do that, it seems it is going to offer Porsche, BM, AMG type go, and hoefully quality, but for the same price! That isnt going to work. My other worry for it is how it will be recieved; the Europa experience is a case in point. Lotus cocked up that launch well and truly but now the Europa is a really nice sorted car - more grown up than the Elise and less cartoon or geeky than the Exige. However, it gets slated because its 'softer', I can see the same happening with the Eagle.
I don't want to give the impression I'm down on the Eagle - I really hope that it is awesome and a massive success. I think there is a gap in the market that Lotus could fill, a much harder 3-5 litre two seater sports car in the true sense, price at 60K and I think it would fly, albeit not in huge volumes. I'm not sure a 2+2 is going to deliver this for Lotus, but I hope I'm wrong!
There will be demand for it as long as they learn from the errors of the initial Europa & give it a decent spec for the price. Somehow they've got to combine luxury without sacrificing all the Lotus lightweight ideals & ensure build quality is like nothing before from Hethel & make sure it's not short of decent standard options (no more blaupunkt sat nav's!!!). Never underestimate the lure of the Lotus brand. Lots of people still adore the Esprit, just don't want the rawness of the current models.
My only worry is they're getting a bit overconfident with their line up, which may confuse customers. In the next 3 years they'll be producing Elise, Exige, Europa, Eagle and Esprit. With varying spec options many may cross into the others price range.
My only worry is they're getting a bit overconfident with their line up, which may confuse customers. In the next 3 years they'll be producing Elise, Exige, Europa, Eagle and Esprit. With varying spec options many may cross into the others price range.
jb111s said:
There will be demand for it as long as they learn from the errors of the initial Europa & give it a decent spec for the price. Somehow they've got to combine luxury without sacrificing all the Lotus lightweight ideals & ensure build quality is like nothing before from Hethel & make sure it's not short of decent standard options (no more blaupunkt sat nav's!!!). Never underestimate the lure of the Lotus brand. Lots of people still adore the Esprit, just don't want the rawness of the current models.
My only worry is they're getting a bit overconfident with their line up, which may confuse customers. In the next 3 years they'll be producing Elise, Exige, Europa, Eagle and Esprit. With varying spec options many may cross into the others price range.
Remember that the Europa was never a strategic model - as far as I've seen it was designed to use up some slack from the end of VX220 production and potentially be a halo model for Proton. The launch was messy because it wasn't really something they were focusing on and they weren't really dependent on it being sucessful.My only worry is they're getting a bit overconfident with their line up, which may confuse customers. In the next 3 years they'll be producing Elise, Exige, Europa, Eagle and Esprit. With varying spec options many may cross into the others price range.
The Eagle and new Esprit are completely different beasts - and I wouldn't be at all suprised if the Europa was discontinued at around the time the Eagle reaches showrooms. It is pretty traditional though for the first models of a new Lotus to be rather underpowered. It's probably the safe way to play it though, and the first model will always look underpowered when Lotus bring out a performance pack that takes full advantage of their chassis design skills.
Lotus can do well specc'd GTs. The Excel had electric everything, a high end CD changer, full leather and reliable running gear.
A Lotus is a completely different animal to every car you guy's have mentioned, people buy a Lotus because they are into the brand and also the heritage. I believe they already have at least 1000 customer's just waiting for this to be released it's a no brainier IF it's around 45k and IF it's as good as everyone is being told it is
I have 5 people in my company alone that I know of are waiting for this car. It can't be anymore than 45k realistically otherwise it will fail, your moving into different territory
Boggy
I have 5 people in my company alone that I know of are waiting for this car. It can't be anymore than 45k realistically otherwise it will fail, your moving into different territory
Boggy
Edited by Boggy on Thursday 28th February 10:43
True, forgot about the Excel.
I understand the Europa was only intended as a stop gap to use up old leftover Vx220 parts (didn't they say there were only going to be 500 ?).
However, they still overpriced it and misjudged its market. At the price it was initally sold at, it was going against boxsters/caymans/mercs which outspecced it badly for the same price. I really wish the Europa had come out for sub 30k with all the recent improvements & they marketed it against TT type GT's. It did do some damage to the Lotus brand in that the public still see them as a bit of a niche manufacturer of lightweight sports cars who can't do GT's.
I have no doubt the Eagle will look stunning as its a completely new model. I just hope they spec it properly & price accordingly. I must admit, they are playing a very good game so far with all the mystery surrounding it. Most of the car mags are all salivating & all seem to want it to succeed. It sounds like it will be the main talking point at the motorshow.
I understand the Europa was only intended as a stop gap to use up old leftover Vx220 parts (didn't they say there were only going to be 500 ?).
However, they still overpriced it and misjudged its market. At the price it was initally sold at, it was going against boxsters/caymans/mercs which outspecced it badly for the same price. I really wish the Europa had come out for sub 30k with all the recent improvements & they marketed it against TT type GT's. It did do some damage to the Lotus brand in that the public still see them as a bit of a niche manufacturer of lightweight sports cars who can't do GT's.
I have no doubt the Eagle will look stunning as its a completely new model. I just hope they spec it properly & price accordingly. I must admit, they are playing a very good game so far with all the mystery surrounding it. Most of the car mags are all salivating & all seem to want it to succeed. It sounds like it will be the main talking point at the motorshow.
Twit said:
If you have 40-60K to spend on this type of car you would be mad to go anywhere other than Porsche.
Yawn... why would you be mad? I don't think I'll ever want a Porsche, I just don't like them, plus they are too generic. Please stop banging on about how no-one should try and compete with them...you've been doing it on other threads as well 
Autocar have just given the Nissan GTR a resounding thumbs up against the 911 and if Lotus DO end up pricing their car at £45k then it will considerably undercut the 911 and will be head on against the Cayman (which itself is a compromise car).
What I don't see any point in is Lotus building the Eagle as a 2 seater only. Surely there isn't enough room for the Elise, Exige, Europa, Eagle AND Esprit in this configuration?
I can only see Lotus competing for sales with its own range if that's the case. Far better to make the Eagle a comfortable 2+2 a la Excel then allow the Esprit to concentrate on seeing off the 911, Audi R8 et al... JJ
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