Any one help me ?? 1st rear engine car!!!
Discussion
Hey all yes im looking at an elise, im here doing all the research i an before spending! i read 1 or2 stories on the cars handling in wet and icy conditions..is it as bad as people say? or is it some people like that right pedal a tad to much!!?? 
Any advise or comments welcome!
Oh yeh saw are s2 on the keynsham ring road outside of bath was it you??!! nice car if it was
>>> Edited by mister kevlar on Thursday 9th October 20:24
Any advise or comments welcome!
Oh yeh saw are s2 on the keynsham ring road outside of bath was it you??!! nice car if it was
>>> Edited by mister kevlar on Thursday 9th October 20:24
my backend "flew" out on a progressive corner in 4th gear!!
i was accelerating and it was wet (very wet) and since then i have learnt to drive carefully and slowly in wet conditions.
like bogie says, it was driver error and not the car. the good thing is the tail end doesnt just fly away instantly- the slide is gradual giving you plenty of time to react i.e. turn into the slide.
you must respect the car in the wet as it is a rwd mid engined car.
what i did was find a car park when wet and find out what the car could actually "handle" in the wet. this was very helpful.
dont be put off ownership of a great car because of potential wet-hazards. just be easy on the right foot and maybe take some lessons (like i should).
my opinion anyway!!
i was accelerating and it was wet (very wet) and since then i have learnt to drive carefully and slowly in wet conditions.
like bogie says, it was driver error and not the car. the good thing is the tail end doesnt just fly away instantly- the slide is gradual giving you plenty of time to react i.e. turn into the slide.
you must respect the car in the wet as it is a rwd mid engined car.
what i did was find a car park when wet and find out what the car could actually "handle" in the wet. this was very helpful.
dont be put off ownership of a great car because of potential wet-hazards. just be easy on the right foot and maybe take some lessons (like i should
). my opinion anyway!!
bogie said:
in short - its not the car...user error
'bad' handling in the wet is usually down to crap tyres, and driving it like its a FWD hatch...and when it goes wrong then blame the car...not user input
Yep, all user error (but you learn from it very quickly!)... worth remembering that after a long hot summer, the first few lots of rain do acually make the road greasier, once it's been pizzing it down for a few weeks all the summer accumulation of oil and diesel has been better washed away, so its the first few wet weeks that you _really_ have to watch it!
I too went looking for nice deserted car park to find out about a few things, the yokos are really progressive is what I discovered, and it was fairly predictable when the back end was about to break away!
CH
>> Edited by Dr Bob on Friday 10th October 08:42
If you have driven other rear wheel drive cars (a BMW or Merc without the ASC) an Elise is nothing like.
Yes it will step out but you can control it as the whole thing is very progressive.
The only time it will get you is if your on auto pilot and have got used to the way it handles and the higher speed in corners.
And agree with the car park etc
So after saying all that I'm off now to very probably stick mine into the first hedge I come to
Yes it will step out but you can control it as the whole thing is very progressive.
The only time it will get you is if your on auto pilot and have got used to the way it handles and the higher speed in corners.
And agree with the car park etc
So after saying all that I'm off now to very probably stick mine into the first hedge I come to
My2P
If things go wrong in RWD you've got a much better chance of getting it back in shape safely than in FWD.
IMO RWD is much safer to drive.
If you're cornering a bit hard in RWD and the car gets a bit light at the back, you can back off and it will settle down. In FWD if this happens, you've either got to try and change the angle of the corner, or plant your foot harder to try and pull the front round. Both being options I'd rather avoid.
Basically throttle off for corners, and apply gradually as you come out again.. don't accelerate much at all in corners until you really know the car a bit better, and even then do it with some experience on a track behind you
Cheers,
Matt
If things go wrong in RWD you've got a much better chance of getting it back in shape safely than in FWD.
IMO RWD is much safer to drive.
If you're cornering a bit hard in RWD and the car gets a bit light at the back, you can back off and it will settle down. In FWD if this happens, you've either got to try and change the angle of the corner, or plant your foot harder to try and pull the front round. Both being options I'd rather avoid.
Basically throttle off for corners, and apply gradually as you come out again.. don't accelerate much at all in corners until you really know the car a bit better, and even then do it with some experience on a track behind you
Cheers,
Matt
dragstar said:
like bogie says, it was driver error and not the car. the good thing is the tail end doesnt just fly away instantly- the slide is gradual giving you plenty of time to react i.e. turn into the slide.
Totally disagree about how progressive and slow the Elise will step out if you lose traction. The car is mid engined (with low polar moment of inertia (i.e. most of the weight is in the middle)). This is why it can turn in so quickly and responsively. Its also why it can snap and spin very quickly too if you overstep the mark. This is a characteristic of all mid engined cars, but generally the shorter the wheelbase the snappier.
Doesn't change the fact that its driver error, but if you do overcook it you will need considerable skill to recover or a healthy does of luck.
M@H said:
My2P
IMO RWD is much safer to drive.
If you're cornering a bit hard in RWD and the car gets a bit light at the back, you can back off and it will settle down. In FWD if this happens, you've either got to try and change the angle of the corner, or plant your foot harder to try and pull the front round. Both being options I'd rather avoid.
Don't agree with this either! If it goes light at the back, then if you back off you are likely to become intimately familiar with the armco. If you don't believe me try paddock hill bend at Brands and back off when it goes light! I'll help you shovel the car out the kitty litter!
Either my driving instrutors have been shite, or there is some very dodgey info on this thread.
DanH said:
M@H said:
My2P
IMO RWD is much safer to drive.
If you're cornering a bit hard in RWD and the car gets a bit light at the back, you can back off and it will settle down. In FWD if this happens, you've either got to try and change the angle of the corner, or plant your foot harder to try and pull the front round. Both being options I'd rather avoid.
Don't agree with this either! If it goes light at the back, then if you back off you are likely to become intimately familiar with the armco. If you don't believe me try paddock hill bend at Brands and back off when it goes light! I'll help you shovel the car out the kitty litter!
Either my driving instrutors have been shite, or there is some very dodgey info on this thread.
I'm only going on my experience in the TVR at Anglessey and LLandow... and having Driven RWD and FWD for years (in my 12th consecutive year of RWD) and cocked things up in both on a track I would much rather be in a RWD car than not.
And I don't like your tone when I used phrases like IMO and My2P.
Edited to add; PLUS, this was advice for the road, not 10./10ths on a track !
Matt.
:somedaysthisplacedoesmyheadin:
>> Edited by M@H on Friday 10th October 13:39
DanH said:
IMO and My2P are implicit and a wasteful verbiage!
Is it really the tone of my post that has annoyed you or the fact that I'm vehemently disagreeing with what I see as very dangerous advice?
Read my actual advice, not my preamble then:
"Basically throttle off for corners, and apply gradually as you come out again.. don't accelerate much at all in corners until you really know the car a bit better, and even then do it with some experience on a track behind you
" So where is your argument...?
And yes it was entierly the tone of your post.. I'm quite happy to be corrected by people who know more than me, but a bit of politeness woudn't go amis.
Matt.
My argument was with your preamble (which should be clear from the fact I quoted it). Anyway I'm not going to persist with this debate as clearly we don't see eye to eye on several issues.
I certainly didn't type anything with the intention of being rude, but I understand how the internet sometimes makes it hard to communicate the tone of ones post and I'm not going to beat myself up about it.
Anyway to the original poster, I would say the Elise is more of a handful than a FWD, but its very rewarding to learn and you can obtain very reasonably priced instruction on a wide open airfield www.1stlotus.com .
OK - you are *both* right 
Having owned the odd rear wheel drive, 4 wheel drive and used a lot of front wheel drive cars on road and track, then here is my expierence of the Elise.
1) Remember it's very light! Consequently it can't push "down" through standing water very well, and relies on the tyres to shift water.
Consequently, in the wet along straights or slow corners, you can feel the rear go light (it's actually aquaplainging) - slowly backing off will allow the tyres to regain composure.
2) Backing off suddenly is bad, bad, bad.
The Elise uses a traverse mounted engine with essentially direct drive to the rear wheels almost in line with the engine. When you back off suddenly two things happen.
a) The engine actually moves around, changing the balance of the car
b) Power to the rears is removed almost instantaneously, and hence the rears grip characteristics will change dramatically
Go into almost any hard corner, wet or dry, in an Elise and snap the throttle shut from full throttle and you'll soon be pointing the other way!
HoweverIf you are smooth on and off the throttle, and smooth with your steering inputs, it's actually a lot more benign than many other cars that I have driven. You can hold massive powerslides very easily - the only other car that's better is the Noble
So, moral of the story.
1) Get tyres that are matched and suit the weight of the car. The Lotus specific Yoko Advan LTS's seem to be the best for an S1 Elise.
2) In the wet, be progressive. The car is light and will aquaplane very easily, and drive "normally" - you'll be fine.
3) Take the car onto a track (preferably a "skid pan" area - or you local carpark at 2:00am, and play. 10 minutes with it and you'll quickly work out what it does
Hope that helps
J
Having owned the odd rear wheel drive, 4 wheel drive and used a lot of front wheel drive cars on road and track, then here is my expierence of the Elise.
1) Remember it's very light! Consequently it can't push "down" through standing water very well, and relies on the tyres to shift water.
Consequently, in the wet along straights or slow corners, you can feel the rear go light (it's actually aquaplainging) - slowly backing off will allow the tyres to regain composure.
2) Backing off suddenly is bad, bad, bad.
The Elise uses a traverse mounted engine with essentially direct drive to the rear wheels almost in line with the engine. When you back off suddenly two things happen.
a) The engine actually moves around, changing the balance of the car
b) Power to the rears is removed almost instantaneously, and hence the rears grip characteristics will change dramatically
Go into almost any hard corner, wet or dry, in an Elise and snap the throttle shut from full throttle and you'll soon be pointing the other way!
HoweverIf you are smooth on and off the throttle, and smooth with your steering inputs, it's actually a lot more benign than many other cars that I have driven. You can hold massive powerslides very easily - the only other car that's better is the Noble
So, moral of the story.
1) Get tyres that are matched and suit the weight of the car. The Lotus specific Yoko Advan LTS's seem to be the best for an S1 Elise.
2) In the wet, be progressive. The car is light and will aquaplane very easily, and drive "normally" - you'll be fine.
3) Take the car onto a track (preferably a "skid pan" area - or you local carpark at 2:00am, and play. 10 minutes with it and you'll quickly work out what it does
Hope that helps
J
Guys, calm down. You are both making valid points based on your own experiences, let's not get caught up in an argument about how to politely express one's opinion on an Internet forum, which we all know is difficult.
What I want to throw into the argument though, is that although both cars are rear wheel drive, the engines are in different places and therefore the consequences of lifting off when the back end breaks away are I think quite distinctly opposite. That is to say, deadly in the Elise.
What I want to throw into the argument though, is that although both cars are rear wheel drive, the engines are in different places and therefore the consequences of lifting off when the back end breaks away are I think quite distinctly opposite. That is to say, deadly in the Elise.
DanH said:
My argument was with your preamble (which should be clear from the fact I quoted it). Anyway I'm not going to persist with this debate as clearly we don't see eye to eye on several issues.
..not really several issues at all, my interpretation was that you just didn't like the fact that I prefer RWD to FWD when things go wrong I think, and by you only quoting my preamble in your response suggsted I was just talking sh"te, rather than the actual advice I gave further down my post which gave the balanced view I tried to present originally. DanH said:
I certainly didn't type anything with the intention of being rude, but I understand how the internet sometimes makes it hard to communicate the tone of ones post and I'm not going to beat myself up about it.
perhaps less exclamation marks, more smileys, and not using the phrase "dodgey info" would help..?
No need to beat yourself up about it anyway on my part.. I have never driven an Elise and you have, I've just overtaken them occaisionally
.. I was making general comments about my experience of RWD.. you were obviously talking about your experiences in an Elise. I now make a mental note not to post into the Elise forum with comments based on my experience in other cars. DanH said:
Anyway to the original poster, I would say the Elise is more of a handful than a FWD, but its very rewarding to learn and you can obtain very reasonably priced instruction on a wide open airfield <a href="http://www.1stlotus.com">www.1stlotus.com</a> .
Agreed... enjoy whatever you drive, and learn as much as you can.
Matt.
>> Edited by M@H on Friday 10th October 15:03
Bonce said:Bonce - hit it on the head. There was a posting from Nick Adams, one of the Elise development engineers, on the old Lotus Life forums that explained how much Lotus had already "dialled out" the effect of engine weight transfer and the immediacy of the drive due to it's position on lift off oversteer, but they couldn't do much more in the time available to get the car ready.
that although both cars [TVR/Elise] are rear wheel drive, the engines are in different places and therefore the consequences of lifting off when the back end breaks away are I think quite distinctly opposite. That is to say, deadly in the Elise.
The fact that the S2 now undsteers in an "green" drivers hands shows that it can be tamed (lift off oversteer has almost gone from the S2 - but you can still provoke it in the VX220
), but some people complain that the S2 is more "boring". In my opinion people shouldn't be doing oversteer on the public roads anyway - but it's a free country and as long as people feel in control then that's fine - just you can drive an Elise around quite happily without ever provoking it (ask my Dad
) J
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