Evolution of the Elige... what next?
Discussion
Now then Lotus fans, hope you've all had a good Chrimbo and that the cranial juices are flowing.
We've seen some interesting developments from Lotus over the past year, particularly noteable have been the arrival of the 2-eleven and the Evora, but the question on my mind is "what next for the Elige platform for 2009?"
I've always bemoaned the 'special edition' for no reason, but am a big fan of the specials where you really get something for your buck. I'd love to see a truly l/w track edition Elise/Exige stripped to the bare bones a la the S1. Will it happen? Do we need one? Will it sell?
S3? Is it required? Will a new look bring anything to the table? What elements would you have Lotus improve?
Your thoughts?
We've seen some interesting developments from Lotus over the past year, particularly noteable have been the arrival of the 2-eleven and the Evora, but the question on my mind is "what next for the Elige platform for 2009?"
I've always bemoaned the 'special edition' for no reason, but am a big fan of the specials where you really get something for your buck. I'd love to see a truly l/w track edition Elise/Exige stripped to the bare bones a la the S1. Will it happen? Do we need one? Will it sell?
S3? Is it required? Will a new look bring anything to the table? What elements would you have Lotus improve?
Your thoughts?
I think they could do worse than offer a carbon ceramic brake package.
The "sport" AP's on my S2 are brilliant but sometimes I use them hard and I reminisce that my F430 would have stopped better than that, of course it may be down to better / different electronics and may have no advantage at all but the Fezza always impressed me in that department.
Best throw away the "Big brother" electronics stuff anyway.
Proper HID light package.
Better gear linkage.
Shave off some "fat"
Re-design the pedal box a little.
F.C.
The "sport" AP's on my S2 are brilliant but sometimes I use them hard and I reminisce that my F430 would have stopped better than that, of course it may be down to better / different electronics and may have no advantage at all but the Fezza always impressed me in that department.
Best throw away the "Big brother" electronics stuff anyway.
Proper HID light package.
Better gear linkage.
Shave off some "fat"
Re-design the pedal box a little.
F.C.
Sam_68 said:
S Works said:
I'd love to see a truly l/w track edition Elise/Exige stripped to the bare bones a la the S1. Will it happen? Do we need one? Will it sell?
Isn't that what the 2-Eleven is?A Elise / Exige without the airbags, traction control, air con, carpets, etc. etc. like the S1 Elise / Exige would be a great option.
The trend on mainstream car engines is to downsize (eg: the turbo/super'd VAG 1.4 170hp engine and the 1.4 Turbo Fiat/Alfa/Abarth 155hp engine)
I'd be intrigued to know if these engines are significantly lighter than the Toyota, as I feel the next Elise design will be very dependent on mainstream engine design, which in turn is driven by C02 emissions.
A basic 150-170hp 1.4 Turbo Elise, lighter than the current, with wider front tyres and using the Europa tub with lower sills would be a useful evolution.
I'd be intrigued to know if these engines are significantly lighter than the Toyota, as I feel the next Elise design will be very dependent on mainstream engine design, which in turn is driven by C02 emissions.
A basic 150-170hp 1.4 Turbo Elise, lighter than the current, with wider front tyres and using the Europa tub with lower sills would be a useful evolution.
Sam_68 said:
S Works said:
I'd love to see a truly l/w track edition Elise/Exige stripped to the bare bones a la the S1. Will it happen? Do we need one? Will it sell?
Isn't that what the 2-Eleven is?rewind back to what the orriginal S1 was designed as....
Scuffers said:
Sam_68 said:
S Works said:
I'd love to see a truly l/w track edition Elise/Exige stripped to the bare bones a la the S1.
Isn't that what the 2-Eleven is?
Sadly, a much lighter weight than the original S1 is going to be difficult to achieve with a modern powertrain, even if you ditch the windscreen, heater and doors; there are few engine/gearbox combinations that could come anywhere close to the weight of the defunct K-series. Smaller turbo engines don't help much either; the basic engines are usually still heavier than the K-series, and by the time you've bolted on the turbo, extra manifolding. intercoolers, bigger radiators etc., they end up much heavier. Then you've got modern safety equipment (airbags & ABS for most markets), heavier brakes and uprights now that Lotus have ditched the MMC discs and extruded uprights, etc., etc.
Sam_68 said:
Scuffers said:
Sam_68 said:
S Works said:
I'd love to see a truly l/w track edition Elise/Exige stripped to the bare bones a la the S1.
Isn't that what the 2-Eleven is?Sadly, a much lighter weight than the original S1 is going to be difficult to achieve with a modern powertrain, even if you ditch the windscreen, heater and doors; there are few engine/gearbox combinations that could come anywhere close to the weight of the defunct K-series. Smaller turbo engines don't help much either; the basic engines are usually still heavier than the K-series, and by the time you've bolted on the turbo, extra manifolding. intercoolers, bigger radiators etc., they end up much heavier. Then you've got modern safety equipment (airbags & ABS for most markets), heavier brakes and uprights now that Lotus have ditched the MMC discs and extruded uprights, etc., etc.
No way is the 2-11 670Kg's in *any* form, more like 770+ (try putting one on the scales)
as for airbags/ABS/etc they are not mandatory (for low volume cars...) by all means have them as extra's... (and they are not that heavy)
As for the rest of the parts, Lotus chose to ditch Ali uprights/MMC brakes/etc. nothing stopping them going back to lightwight versions.
last point, engine wise, yes the K was light, however, there are other very light engines out there, Duratec is one of them....
fatwomble said:
Sam_68 said:
S Works said:
I'd love to see a truly l/w track edition Elise/Exige stripped to the bare bones a la the S1. Will it happen? Do we need one? Will it sell?
Isn't that what the 2-Eleven is?A Elise / Exige without the airbags, traction control, air con, carpets, etc. etc. like the S1 Elise / Exige would be a great option.
I wonder if a very basic spec Elise S could be released as a nod back to the S1. Or at least it should be possible to order similar. Minimal sound deadening, l/w seats, l/w wheels, adjustable suspension, harnesses and bar as standard, fire extinguisher mounting point etc. for those weekend blatters/trackdayers who don't want to wear a helmet.
Also perhaps they'll have a go at tweaking that engine, or perhaps getting a lower cc, supercharged or turbo'd lump. Is there one in Toyota's range which might suit? Less weight, but with the possibility to get a small turbo or charger and get say 150bhp?
Try taking it the other way. The 'Elige' platform is well proven and works really well. The current Exige S with touring pack is pretty damn 'luxurious' for a track refugee and now they've got air con, comfortable seats and still retain speed and incredible steering feel and handling, what next?
You could try to get the S1 lightness but with S2 quality control (which IMO was missing in the S1 cars) - but that way lies the 2-11. You could do one with a windscreen, just-about usable roof and 800 kg, but only the hardcore would want one when an older S1 with a load of upgrades and maybe a different engine would work as well (not wishing to start the engine argument).
What I have in mind is maybe adding aural entertainment to the package. The car already has creature comforts, it goes fast, stops fast and handles brilliantly. What *all* Exiges / Elises lack is a 'premium' engine note - this may sound silly but with the price of the top models, it'd be nice to have a car that sounds as good as it goes.
It's not an engineering priority, but it goes down well with buyers. How many owners here have paid out £££ for loud exhausts that make no difference to the power (in fact they often confuse the engine management)?? And IMO a loud inline 4 isn't a great noise.
Lightweight 2 litre V6 would be a laugh if it revved high enough and was light enough. This could be feasible - the car worked well enough in VX220 turbo trim and that had a heavy iron-block engine. Space would be the problem. However with the downsizing, efficiency improvements and the ever-present requirement to keep the Elise light - I reckon the best bet would be a 3 cylinder with either turbo or supercharger (the Japanese have LOADS of experience in this area - all the 'kei' class city cars are limited to 3 cylinder engines and some of them are turbo nutters) with an exhaust made to make it sound good. Just anything but another inline 4, however good they may be...
I really think the current car is so damn good that the only thing that would improve it would be to give the engine some character. A lot of the enjoyment got from Lotus' more expensive and heavier competitors is from the character, sound and delivery of the engine. Porsche make great engines, always have - Noble threw in a turbo'd V6 Duratec which sounded mental, and as soon as you get into 'supercar' territory the noise of the engine is a large part of the package.
If a turbo'd 3 cylinder could be made efficient and charismatic enough to provide 200-300 bhp then it'd be ideal in an Exige where you hear the engine most of the time... not sure a V6 could be made to work and retain the boot (an essential part of the car IMO, otherwise the Caterfields get tempting).
There's no point in going bigger or more 'GT' - the Europa and Evora are already there. There's no point in going track-only for wealthy owners with a garage and cars for rainy days, the 2-11 is there and you throw a large amount of your market away by doing this. The Exige IMO is darn near perfect, for all its compromises, it's an incredible car. The only thing I'd change if I could would be the engine note. So given that I consider myself an 'average' owner (and not someone who worships Colin Chapman or wears Lotus branded clothing) something that I would want is probably something that would target the 'wider' market for these cars and not just the 'lightness über alles' hardcore. I wonder if Lotus have tried anything other than an inline 4?
Have any of the engineers here tried transplanting anything other than an inline 4?? (Scuffham - you'd know about this, surely?)
You could try to get the S1 lightness but with S2 quality control (which IMO was missing in the S1 cars) - but that way lies the 2-11. You could do one with a windscreen, just-about usable roof and 800 kg, but only the hardcore would want one when an older S1 with a load of upgrades and maybe a different engine would work as well (not wishing to start the engine argument).
What I have in mind is maybe adding aural entertainment to the package. The car already has creature comforts, it goes fast, stops fast and handles brilliantly. What *all* Exiges / Elises lack is a 'premium' engine note - this may sound silly but with the price of the top models, it'd be nice to have a car that sounds as good as it goes.
It's not an engineering priority, but it goes down well with buyers. How many owners here have paid out £££ for loud exhausts that make no difference to the power (in fact they often confuse the engine management)?? And IMO a loud inline 4 isn't a great noise.
Lightweight 2 litre V6 would be a laugh if it revved high enough and was light enough. This could be feasible - the car worked well enough in VX220 turbo trim and that had a heavy iron-block engine. Space would be the problem. However with the downsizing, efficiency improvements and the ever-present requirement to keep the Elise light - I reckon the best bet would be a 3 cylinder with either turbo or supercharger (the Japanese have LOADS of experience in this area - all the 'kei' class city cars are limited to 3 cylinder engines and some of them are turbo nutters) with an exhaust made to make it sound good. Just anything but another inline 4, however good they may be...
I really think the current car is so damn good that the only thing that would improve it would be to give the engine some character. A lot of the enjoyment got from Lotus' more expensive and heavier competitors is from the character, sound and delivery of the engine. Porsche make great engines, always have - Noble threw in a turbo'd V6 Duratec which sounded mental, and as soon as you get into 'supercar' territory the noise of the engine is a large part of the package.
If a turbo'd 3 cylinder could be made efficient and charismatic enough to provide 200-300 bhp then it'd be ideal in an Exige where you hear the engine most of the time... not sure a V6 could be made to work and retain the boot (an essential part of the car IMO, otherwise the Caterfields get tempting).
There's no point in going bigger or more 'GT' - the Europa and Evora are already there. There's no point in going track-only for wealthy owners with a garage and cars for rainy days, the 2-11 is there and you throw a large amount of your market away by doing this. The Exige IMO is darn near perfect, for all its compromises, it's an incredible car. The only thing I'd change if I could would be the engine note. So given that I consider myself an 'average' owner (and not someone who worships Colin Chapman or wears Lotus branded clothing) something that I would want is probably something that would target the 'wider' market for these cars and not just the 'lightness über alles' hardcore. I wonder if Lotus have tried anything other than an inline 4?
Have any of the engineers here tried transplanting anything other than an inline 4?? (Scuffham - you'd know about this, surely?)
cyberface said:
Have any of the engineers here tried transplanting anything other than an inline 4??
There have been running prototypes of an Elise Coupe, using a Rover KV6. And, of course, that's only a tiny step from the Evora.I understand that Lotus engineers weren't happy with the handling of the KV6 Elise, since the extra weight exacerbated the snap oversteer at the limit. Obviously, the Evora gets away with it due to larger overall size and longer wheelbase of the 2+2 configuration, but that partly defeats the object, since the extra weight cancels out the extra power.
Sam_68 said:
Scuffers said:
No way is the 2-11 670Kg's in *any* form, more like 770+ (try putting one on the scales)
OK. You know better than the Lotus engineers and the Type Approval people, obviously. 
All I can tell you is that's what the ones I have seen weighed come out at. (it's hardly the first time Lotus have been somewhat economical with the real numbers after all)
Sam_68 said:
Scuffers said:
All I can tell you is that's what the ones I have seen weighed come out at. (it's hardly the first time Lotus have been somewhat economical with the real numbers after all)
I have my own corner weight scales, thank you. 
Like I said, you're da man... you know best.
I've been banging on about this for ages but I'd love to see a Smart Roadster like Elise. Basically a slightly narrower more compact design but with luggage space above the engine bay for a little added practicality, a simple but comfortable interior and a low capacity turbo lump for big MPG but adequate performance (dare I suggest maybe a diesel!). Would love to see car like this go into production as a properly resolved revolution of the Smart Roadster, which just seemed like a missed opportunity. Basically a sports car aimed for the city dweller rather than the trackday goer, who's already spoilt for choice. Not sure that it fully suits the Lotus brand but its a car I'd like to see all the same.
Gad-Westy said:
Sam_68 said:
Scuffers said:
All I can tell you is that's what the ones I have seen weighed come out at. (it's hardly the first time Lotus have been somewhat economical with the real numbers after all)
I have my own corner weight scales, thank you. Like I said, you're da man... you know best.
21TonyK said:
Gad-Westy said:
Sam_68 said:
Scuffers said:
All I can tell you is that's what the ones I have seen weighed come out at. (it's hardly the first time Lotus have been somewhat economical with the real numbers after all)
I have my own corner weight scales, thank you. Like I said, you're da man... you know best.
21TonyK said:
From the 2-11 brochure, 670Kg dry weight base spec. 745Kg kerb weight launch spec. Stick me in it and it's well in excess of 800Kg Xmas pud or not!
Bear in mind that kerb weight includes a full tank of fuel as well as all operating fluids and - for EU homologation purposes - a nominal driver weight of 75 kilos.As so often with Scuffer's posts, you've got to learn to look behind the hidden agendas, but suffice it to say that if you compare like-with-like (ie. kerb weight with kerb weight, or dry weight with dry weight, on an unsupercharged variant) there isn't the difference between the 2-Eleven and the S1 that some people would have you believe.
Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 27th December 18:54
Sam_68 said:
cyberface said:
Have any of the engineers here tried transplanting anything other than an inline 4??
There have been running prototypes of an Elise Coupe, using a Rover KV6. And, of course, that's only a tiny step from the Evora.I understand that Lotus engineers weren't happy with the handling of the KV6 Elise, since the extra weight exacerbated the snap oversteer at the limit. Obviously, the Evora gets away with it due to larger overall size and longer wheelbase of the 2+2 configuration, but that partly defeats the object, since the extra weight cancels out the extra power.
I agree with you that V6 engines push the car too much towards the Evora and potential cannibalism. If the Exige/Elise is to be the 'small' blatter's car then V engines aren't going to fit easily. Maybe a VR5, or an inline 3 with forced induction. Not sure how heavy the VW VR5 is (I think it's iron blocked, so no good), what are the options re: turbo'd inline 3s? Anything available off the shelf that could develop 200 bhp?
Smart Roadster with a proper gearbox would be superb as well, but that's not far away from the Elise with a 3 cylinder engine, is it?
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