If TVR built Elises
Discussion
Honestly, I think anyone who says Elises are badly built simply hasn't looked at one properly.
I spent over three years renovating/restoring a TVR Griffith in 5 years of ownership, and whilst I would always defend its build quality and engineering value at the original market price, there's no doubt maintenance is frustrated by things (brackets/mounting arrangments mostly) being made to fit without regard to ease of maintenance. I mean things being bonded in rather than bolted, sealant used instead of gaskets, self tappers instead of machine screws and threaded clips (whatever they're called) - that sort of thing.
The Elise on the other hand is a thing of beauty. All that bespoke extrusion, proper headlamp units, adaptive bracketry (to fit engine/rad etc) rather than hardware store angle brackets and tubes and tubes of sikaflex.
As I say, TVRs aren't badly built - they're just frustrating to maintain, and consequent skimping tends to invite 'unreliability' through poor maintenance.
Buyt the Elise? No such criticism. I can't believe the thing was under £50k new, let alone under £30k.
Fantastic car.
I spent over three years renovating/restoring a TVR Griffith in 5 years of ownership, and whilst I would always defend its build quality and engineering value at the original market price, there's no doubt maintenance is frustrated by things (brackets/mounting arrangments mostly) being made to fit without regard to ease of maintenance. I mean things being bonded in rather than bolted, sealant used instead of gaskets, self tappers instead of machine screws and threaded clips (whatever they're called) - that sort of thing.
The Elise on the other hand is a thing of beauty. All that bespoke extrusion, proper headlamp units, adaptive bracketry (to fit engine/rad etc) rather than hardware store angle brackets and tubes and tubes of sikaflex.
As I say, TVRs aren't badly built - they're just frustrating to maintain, and consequent skimping tends to invite 'unreliability' through poor maintenance.
Buyt the Elise? No such criticism. I can't believe the thing was under £50k new, let alone under £30k.
Fantastic car.
you're having a laugh aren't you? Whilst I grant you the chassis and extrusion design of the Elise is superb engineering, Lotus have made, and continue to persist with, some truly shoddy placement of parts which fail and require service. Try replacing a battery on the S1. Or replacing the heater rheostat on an S2. What a laugh.S Works said:
you're having a laugh aren't you? Whilst I grant you the chassis and extrusion design of the Elise is superb engineering, Lotus have made, and continue to persist with, some truly shoddy placement of parts which fail and require service. Try replacing a battery on the S1. Or replacing the heater rheostat on an S2. What a laugh.As for the TVR heater controls, they are like 6th form electronics projects and far too clever for their own good. The control valves are operated by stepper motors which stop operating when a servo arm contacts an exernally-mounted microswitch. All this is in the open among the wiring loom in the passenger footwell and very prone to being inadvertently disturbed. It's also a nightmare to set up.
But at least you don't have to remove the front clam to get at the rheostat - just jack the car up, slacken off the handbrake cable, remove the gearknob, disconnect the centre console, lift it (which can require removal of some of the aftermarket rollbars!!) and unscrew the thing!
Sure there ares some 'flaws' with the lotus - most seemingly related to having to remove the front clam (front flexi brake pipes? windscreen? windscreen wiper/mechanism?) but brake pipes aside these are also tricky on the Griff.
If the built elises they would have 350 bhp minimum! I have a Tuscan and an elise and while the latter inspires more confidence and appears better finished they are actually similar on the niggles front. Either way they are all minor issues which have done little to hamper the huge amounts of driving pleasure on offer.
griffter said:
Honestly, I think anyone who says Elises are badly built simply hasn't looked at one properly.
I spent over three years renovating/restoring a TVR Griffith in 5 years of ownership, and whilst I would always defend its build quality and engineering value at the original market price, there's no doubt maintenance is frustrated by things (brackets/mounting arrangments mostly) being made to fit without regard to ease of maintenance. I mean things being bonded in rather than bolted, sealant used instead of gaskets, self tappers instead of machine screws and threaded clips (whatever they're called) - that sort of thing.
The Elise on the other hand is a thing of beauty. All that bespoke extrusion, proper headlamp units, adaptive bracketry (to fit engine/rad etc) rather than hardware store angle brackets and tubes and tubes of sikaflex.
As I say, TVRs aren't badly built - they're just frustrating to maintain, and consequent skimping tends to invite 'unreliability' through poor maintenance.
Buyt the Elise? No such criticism. I can't believe the thing was under £50k new, let alone under £30k.
Fantastic car.
It's very, very simple. That's the beauty of its engineering. If you can keep things simple you don't need to spread your budget thin on multitudes of parts/systems/sub assemblies. OTOH it means compromises in day-to-day practicality (I've driven four Elises and three Opel Speedsters and still can't seem to become friends with the roof construction; tiny luggage space that's rather firmly heated by the engine, too; the engine (esp. K-series) droning away richt behind your back, reverberating in the sparsely trimmed cabin).I spent over three years renovating/restoring a TVR Griffith in 5 years of ownership, and whilst I would always defend its build quality and engineering value at the original market price, there's no doubt maintenance is frustrated by things (brackets/mounting arrangments mostly) being made to fit without regard to ease of maintenance. I mean things being bonded in rather than bolted, sealant used instead of gaskets, self tappers instead of machine screws and threaded clips (whatever they're called) - that sort of thing.
The Elise on the other hand is a thing of beauty. All that bespoke extrusion, proper headlamp units, adaptive bracketry (to fit engine/rad etc) rather than hardware store angle brackets and tubes and tubes of sikaflex.
As I say, TVRs aren't badly built - they're just frustrating to maintain, and consequent skimping tends to invite 'unreliability' through poor maintenance.
Buyt the Elise? No such criticism. I can't believe the thing was under £50k new, let alone under £30k.
Fantastic car.
I also get a distinct feeling the the Elise was designed to be built in somewhat larger numbers than was intended for the TVR Griffith/Chimaera (which has come to bit them in the a** IMO; had they known they'd build near 10,000 of the buggers they might have invested in designing some proper bracketry/gasketry/fasteners up front).
TBH I am as confident in taking my Chimmie out for a long drive (say, to the UK and back in a day as I've done several times now) as I am with the '08 company lease MINI. Once it's sorted, it's sorted and I pretty much know every item that will need attention in the near future (RHS rear ARB droplink bracket, LHS exhaust manifold has a slight blow, rear wishbones need a couple of thrust washers put in, rear tyres down to 3mm or so and erm... that's it.)
It's been completely & utterly reliable since it's gone over with a fine tooth comb - 't was a huge wad of money, but ultimately well spent (two out of four items above were already known at the time, but the bill was high enough as it was...).
Griffter is right in that the way TVRs were built makes keeping them in tip top shape a rather more intricate affair in lots of little ways than it is with most, and that the problem mostly lies in cutting corners with maintenance as a result. On the other hand, at least with the RV8 cars you don't pay through the nose for parts and consumables (even the stuff that doesn't come out of Ford/Rover parts bins).
It's been completely & utterly reliable since it's gone over with a fine tooth comb - 't was a huge wad of money, but ultimately well spent (two out of four items above were already known at the time, but the bill was high enough as it was...).
Griffter is right in that the way TVRs were built makes keeping them in tip top shape a rather more intricate affair in lots of little ways than it is with most, and that the problem mostly lies in cutting corners with maintenance as a result. On the other hand, at least with the RV8 cars you don't pay through the nose for parts and consumables (even the stuff that doesn't come out of Ford/Rover parts bins).
Edited by 900T-R on Wednesday 25th March 19:24
Interesting points 900T-R, although I have to say I think the Elise S2 roof is miles better than the Griff/Chim arrangement! It removes more quickly - potentially from within the car - and stows in less space. Understandably, as you do not have to wrestle your lid into a Griffith boot each time though, the issue is much less significant!
However it wasn't really design elegance I was referring to - more the fact that jobs are a lot easier and quicker on the Elise than the Griff, due to better engineered build.
The only exception I have found so far is window height adjustment. On the Elise you have to take the door card off (which naturally is easy and better 'engineered' than the arangement on the Griff). However window height adjustment on the Griff can be done by sticking a screwdriver past the brush seal without removing the door card (or anything else) at all!
However it wasn't really design elegance I was referring to - more the fact that jobs are a lot easier and quicker on the Elise than the Griff, due to better engineered build.
The only exception I have found so far is window height adjustment. On the Elise you have to take the door card off (which naturally is easy and better 'engineered' than the arangement on the Griff). However window height adjustment on the Griff can be done by sticking a screwdriver past the brush seal without removing the door card (or anything else) at all!
The Pits said:
If the built elises they would have 350 bhp minimum! I have a Tuscan and an elise and while the latter inspires more confidence and appears better finished they are actually similar on the niggles front. Either way they are all minor issues which have done little to hamper the huge amounts of driving pleasure on offer.
really?because chimera's and griffs weren't running what? 240bhp max?
griffter said:
However it wasn't really design elegance I was referring to - more the fact that jobs are a lot easier and quicker on the Elise than the Griff, due to better engineered build.
The only exception I have found so far is window height adjustment. On the Elise you have to take the door card off (which naturally is easy and better 'engineered' than the arangement on the Griff). However window height adjustment on the Griff can be done by sticking a screwdriver past the brush seal without removing the door card (or anything else) at all!
Heater resistor pack replacement?The only exception I have found so far is window height adjustment. On the Elise you have to take the door card off (which naturally is easy and better 'engineered' than the arangement on the Griff). However window height adjustment on the Griff can be done by sticking a screwdriver past the brush seal without removing the door card (or anything else) at all!
kambites said:
Heater resistor pack replacement?
I haven't had to do that yet 
But seriously, messing with the Griff heater controls, which use Vauxhall window swtiches to control motors whose cut off position is dictated by a servo-arm activated micro-switch is pretty frustrating too!
LordGrover said:
Not a fair comparison. RV8s in the Griffs and Chimps are old school tech - even the cars are up to 18 years old now while the engine is largely fifty years old. You'd have to compare it with the later models like T350 and Sagaris of the same generation/era as the Lotus.
not really, look at the RRP - the Tuscan, T350c and Sagaris were much more expensive than the elise..IIRC the older cars were more in similar price brackets.
griffter said:
kambites said:
Heater resistor pack replacement?
I haven't had to do that yet But seriously, messing with the Griff heater controls, which use Vauxhall window swtiches to control motors whose cut off position is dictated by a servo-arm activated micro-switch is pretty frustrating too!
Squirt of WD40 on the cables - sorted. 
I am not going to comment on TVR's other than they are specifically made in small numbers to avoid certain regulation for high volume cars. The Elise type cars are now very well built. They have got steadily better over time. The biggest leap in quality came with the development and build of the VX220. Vauxhall insisted that build quality was improved and these improvements were applied across the range.
There are niggles like S2 heaters and S1 batteries but in any car there will be jobs that are a barsteward. These stem from the Elise being build primarily for lightness. The whole car is a compromise (Look at the doors). Having been a victim of my fair share of fixes, the car has settled down (massage that woody grain) and now I find her reliable.
If you go into ownership of a Lotus or TVR without thinking there will be more maintenance and care than a normal car then who were you kidding? Dont forget, many mainstream cars have recall problems.
There are niggles like S2 heaters and S1 batteries but in any car there will be jobs that are a barsteward. These stem from the Elise being build primarily for lightness. The whole car is a compromise (Look at the doors). Having been a victim of my fair share of fixes, the car has settled down (massage that woody grain) and now I find her reliable.
If you go into ownership of a Lotus or TVR without thinking there will be more maintenance and care than a normal car then who were you kidding? Dont forget, many mainstream cars have recall problems.
Gooby said:
The biggest leap in quality came with the development and build of the VX220. Vauxhall insisted that build quality was improved and these improvements were applied across the range.
Typically, it were the Opel Speedsters I drove on which various parts came off....Edited by 900T-R on Thursday 26th March 10:52
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