Discussion
I am looking into the prospect of getting an Elise or VX220. Having driven an Elise S2 111s today I have to say I was pretty taken with it. I will be using the car as an everyday car but the water tightness of the roof does concern me some what. From visual inspection the roof on the S2 looks to be much better than that of the S1's that I looked at. How water tight are they? Is a hardtop advisable for winter? Thanks in advance.
I used my S2 as a daily drive up until about 18months ago without any problems. Its now a weekend toy due to the work environment not being suitable.
The first S2 I had was a 2001 race tech, the early S2's tended to have a problem with water entering where the window glass, windscreen and roof met. I now have a 05 111s, these dont tend to have this problem as lotus incorporated a small 'hopper' type arrangement in the windscreen.
Water tightness in a shower is ok, but heavy rain you get the odd drop of water inside the cabin, sometimes the soft top just needs re-fixing, but I always carry a small towel to dry anything up with.
Hard top for the winter is a must tends to keep the heat in alot better on the cold mornings.
The first S2 I had was a 2001 race tech, the early S2's tended to have a problem with water entering where the window glass, windscreen and roof met. I now have a 05 111s, these dont tend to have this problem as lotus incorporated a small 'hopper' type arrangement in the windscreen.
Water tightness in a shower is ok, but heavy rain you get the odd drop of water inside the cabin, sometimes the soft top just needs re-fixing, but I always carry a small towel to dry anything up with.
Hard top for the winter is a must tends to keep the heat in alot better on the cold mornings.
Edited by ad111s on Monday 1st June 16:07
ad111s said:
Hard top for the winter is a must tends to keep the heat in alot better on the cold mornings.
Wouldnt say "a must". I drive mine everyday, including the couple of days earlier in the year when it snowed quite a lot, and have never felt I need a hard top. If it isnt raining, i like to have the top off and just wrap up warm. Dont see the point of fitting a hard top to a soft top car as you are limiting the roof down action to spring/ summer.
Some of my best drives have been sunny winters day with the roof down.
JTBUSH said:
ad111s said:
Hard top for the winter is a must tends to keep the heat in alot better on the cold mornings.
Wouldnt say "a must". I drive mine everyday, including the couple of days earlier in the year when it snowed quite a lot, and have never felt I need a hard top. If it isnt raining, i like to have the top off and just wrap up warm. Dont see the point of fitting a hard top to a soft top car as you are limiting the roof down action to spring/ summer.
Some of my best drives have been sunny winters day with the roof down.
I use my Elise S2 111S every day, and it was my only car up until last Christmas. I've driven in some pretty shocking conditions, including through floods that have left other cars stranded, and I've never had water ingress at all - not even a drop. My hard top lets drips in with heavy rain, but the soft top doesn't (I believe that's just an adjustment).
The only problem I've had with everyday use is carrying my cello around (it won't go in the Elise) and noise on the motorway, which winds me up after a while.
The only problem I've had with everyday use is carrying my cello around (it won't go in the Elise) and noise on the motorway, which winds me up after a while.
have just bought an elise s to replace my ibiza cupra for use every day. so far no real negatives getting around 40mpg from it, fairly easy to get in and out off (if struggling just roll the roof half accross takes around 5 sec to take off and 5 to put back on). my advice do it you wont regret it
My S2 111S has never leaked a drop. I do have a hardtop for it but I didn't bother to fit it last winter - didn't really seem to be any point.
ETA; The little cups which stop the leaks around the front window seal were from MY04 onwards I think. They can be retrofitted but it's a whole new windscreen to roof seal so it isn't cheap.
ETA; The little cups which stop the leaks around the front window seal were from MY04 onwards I think. They can be retrofitted but it's a whole new windscreen to roof seal so it isn't cheap.
Edited by kambites on Monday 1st June 17:11
Fatrat said:
My S1 is my daily driver and its fine. I did purchase a hardtop but that is only because mine lives outside and in very wet weather the cabin got quite damp (but not wet).
I also have an S1 as a daily drive and my experience has been very similar. Never found it to be a significant problem and mine lives outside all year round as well. I wouldn't let the roof affect your decision, it is a minor hassle at most.You've got to love the "Lotus thing" and be a real enthusiast to put up with an Elise as a daily driver. I did it for a year in an early S2. Loved it most of the time, hated it sometimes. I now have an 2009 SC which is sooooooooooo much better with air con and touring pack. No water comes in and the new probax seats really are that much better. Daily driver - yes! It's no boxster when it comes to practicality or ease of ownership though. Can you put up with wind noise and all the other Elise noises?
Need to have thought it through but the rewards are high if you go for it :-)
Helps to have access to another car as well.
Chris
Need to have thought it through but the rewards are high if you go for it :-)
Helps to have access to another car as well.
Chris
Well I will be coming from TVR ownership so am familar with some of the quirks and perks of using these type of cars day to day. Wel I am reassured that the roof issue seems to be liveable, but the general opinion would be that the S2 is a bit more refined??? Am I right in thinking this? I have only driven 111s varients, I plan on having a go in a standard car, but it there a huge amount of difference?
Hard top for the winter is a must tends to keep the heat in alot better on the cold mornings.
[/quote]
Wouldnt say "a must". I drive mine everyday, including the couple of days earlier in the year when it snowed quite a lot, and have never felt I need a hard top.
If it isnt raining, i like to have the top off and just wrap up warm. Dont see the point of fitting a hard top to a soft top car as you are limiting the roof down action to spring/ summer.
Some of my best drives have been sunny winters day with the roof down.
[/quote]
JT point taken, maybe advisable then, for keeping the water out they are better than the soft top. But the only thing with the hard top, until TVR's there is no where to store the thing, if its on then you are stuck.
[/quote]Just think the Hard Top makes the car look and feel different for a few months,plus,its always a nice event when you replace it with the soft shell. For storage,I put mine under the bed!
[/quote]
Wouldnt say "a must". I drive mine everyday, including the couple of days earlier in the year when it snowed quite a lot, and have never felt I need a hard top.
If it isnt raining, i like to have the top off and just wrap up warm. Dont see the point of fitting a hard top to a soft top car as you are limiting the roof down action to spring/ summer.
Some of my best drives have been sunny winters day with the roof down.
[/quote]
JT point taken, maybe advisable then, for keeping the water out they are better than the soft top. But the only thing with the hard top, until TVR's there is no where to store the thing, if its on then you are stuck.
[/quote]Just think the Hard Top makes the car look and feel different for a few months,plus,its always a nice event when you replace it with the soft shell. For storage,I put mine under the bed!
jimmyV8 said:
Well I will be coming from TVR ownership so am familar with some of the quirks and perks of using these type of cars day to day. Wel I am reassured that the roof issue seems to be liveable, but the general opinion would be that the S2 is a bit more refined??? Am I right in thinking this? I have only driven 111s varients, I plan on having a go in a standard car, but it there a huge amount of difference?
From my limited experience of an S2 (about a month), it was definitely more refined than my S1. Central locking, leccy windows, brakes that work (only kidding, but I nearly went through the windscreen on first use, after my S1), and a simple to fit/remove roof are all improvements. However it did feel a lot more like an "ordinary" car, in that the steering and brakes felt more remote, the car generally higher (my S1 is a little bit lower), bigger and heavier. Despite the driving experience feeling a bit more remote - I felt less likely that I would crash it - but then I wasn't trying as it was a hire car! I suppose it's horses for courses really, what do you want? I'm sure there are plenty of Caterham owners out there who would think that an S1 Elise is very refined and feel that it's too "soft" an option.mrssumner said:
jimmyV8 said:
Well I will be coming from TVR ownership so am familar with some of the quirks and perks of using these type of cars day to day. Wel I am reassured that the roof issue seems to be liveable, but the general opinion would be that the S2 is a bit more refined??? Am I right in thinking this? I have only driven 111s varients, I plan on having a go in a standard car, but it there a huge amount of difference?
From my limited experience of an S2 (about a month), it was definitely more refined than my S1. Central locking, leccy windows, brakes that work (only kidding, but I nearly went through the windscreen on first use, after my S1), and a simple to fit/remove roof are all improvements. However it did feel a lot more like an "ordinary" car, in that the steering and brakes felt more remote, the car generally higher (my S1 is a little bit lower), bigger and heavier. Despite the driving experience feeling a bit more remote - I felt less likely that I would crash it - but then I wasn't trying as it was a hire car! I suppose it's horses for courses really, what do you want? I'm sure there are plenty of Caterham owners out there who would think that an S1 Elise is very refined and feel that it's too "soft" an option.My S2 111S (no servo brakes), has a similar level of control feel to S1s that I've driven, so I'm interested by your comments. Well, actually, I can have a good guess
I've driven quite a few Elises now and, like Caterhams, they all seem to vary a bit... They're incredibly sensitive to tyre pressures and geo. I think if an S1 and S2 were both set up perfectly the differences would be limited to: the lighter weight and feel of the S1, the increased cabin noise of the S1, and on the standard cars the slightly softer springs of the S1 causing some more roll, especially noticeable at the rear where the engine mass is in transitions (surtees at Brands for instance) and mid corner lift off (the S2 contains it better than the standard S1). I'm not aware that a lighter car like the S1 should necessarily have better steering/brake pedal feel than the S2 on the basis of its weight (in fact my Elise has better feel than either of my Caterhams had, and they were 500kg!); the only differences I'm aware of on heavier cars is a compromised geometry to get away with a lack of power steering, so as the lock increases the linearity of weighting will change slightly - Caterhams and single seaters (~500kg cars) don't suffer from this but Elises do slightly.Personally I struggled to use any of my Loti every day (although quite happily used my Chimaera daily in the past). However, its not to say it cant be done if you are prepared to put up with some of the idiosyncrasies.
A big positive of the Elise as a daily car is that you wont get better mpg this side of a dull hatchback.
You may want to read the Boxster S thread as although you aren't considering anything else, its got some comments about useability in there and my views.
Ultimately, if I were to use an Elise everyday, I would certainly go for an S2. The S1 is a great car and perhaps slightly more raw, but the S2 isnt that far different and for the extra small practicalities probably worthwhile. As a daily car, a 111R with air con, leccy windows, central locking, lowered cam change and roberts your father. Some will say the most diluted of elises, but I'd say a more convenient daily car with the same DNA that runs through all the elise variants.
A big positive of the Elise as a daily car is that you wont get better mpg this side of a dull hatchback.
You may want to read the Boxster S thread as although you aren't considering anything else, its got some comments about useability in there and my views.
Ultimately, if I were to use an Elise everyday, I would certainly go for an S2. The S1 is a great car and perhaps slightly more raw, but the S2 isnt that far different and for the extra small practicalities probably worthwhile. As a daily car, a 111R with air con, leccy windows, central locking, lowered cam change and roberts your father. Some will say the most diluted of elises, but I'd say a more convenient daily car with the same DNA that runs through all the elise variants.
RobM77 said:
mrssumner said:
jimmyV8 said:
Well I will be coming from TVR ownership so am familar with some of the quirks and perks of using these type of cars day to day. Wel I am reassured that the roof issue seems to be liveable, but the general opinion would be that the S2 is a bit more refined??? Am I right in thinking this? I have only driven 111s varients, I plan on having a go in a standard car, but it there a huge amount of difference?
From my limited experience of an S2 (about a month), it was definitely more refined than my S1. Central locking, leccy windows, brakes that work (only kidding, but I nearly went through the windscreen on first use, after my S1), and a simple to fit/remove roof are all improvements. However it did feel a lot more like an "ordinary" car, in that the steering and brakes felt more remote, the car generally higher (my S1 is a little bit lower), bigger and heavier. Despite the driving experience feeling a bit more remote - I felt less likely that I would crash it - but then I wasn't trying as it was a hire car! I suppose it's horses for courses really, what do you want? I'm sure there are plenty of Caterham owners out there who would think that an S1 Elise is very refined and feel that it's too "soft" an option.My S2 111S (no servo brakes), has a similar level of control feel to S1s that I've driven, so I'm interested by your comments. Well, actually, I can have a good guess
I've driven quite a few Elises now and, like Caterhams, they all seem to vary a bit... They're incredibly sensitive to tyre pressures and geo. I think if an S1 and S2 were both set up perfectly the differences would be limited to: the lighter weight and feel of the S1, the increased cabin noise of the S1, and on the standard cars the slightly softer springs of the S1 causing some more roll, especially noticeable at the rear where the engine mass is in transitions (surtees at Brands for instance) and mid corner lift off (the S2 contains it better than the standard S1). I'm not aware that a lighter car like the S1 should necessarily have better steering/brake pedal feel than the S2 on the basis of its weight (in fact my Elise has better feel than either of my Caterhams had, and they were 500kg!); the only differences I'm aware of on heavier cars is a compromised geometry to get away with a lack of power steering, so as the lock increases the linearity of weighting will change slightly - Caterhams and single seaters (~500kg cars) don't suffer from this but Elises do slightly.Also it was a very new S2 (Elise S, I think) that I was given, and if my memory serves me correctly, it had ABS - I tested it, just to see how it would react in a real emergency, of course.
It defo had a toyota engine ('cos the dipstick was in a different place, a right PITA to get to!), and sounded very nice at (high) motorway speeds.
But I will stick by my comment that, yes, I do think my steering and brakes on my S1 do feel more direct. It's what I'm used to driving, so you may think I'd feel that way anyway, but when I got it back from the garage, after a month in the S2, it just felt so much more direct again. Maybe it also has something to do with noise...!
And to the OP, I do still think even an early S2 will feel more refined than a late S1.
mrssumner said:
RobM77 said:
mrssumner said:
jimmyV8 said:
Well I will be coming from TVR ownership so am familar with some of the quirks and perks of using these type of cars day to day. Wel I am reassured that the roof issue seems to be liveable, but the general opinion would be that the S2 is a bit more refined??? Am I right in thinking this? I have only driven 111s varients, I plan on having a go in a standard car, but it there a huge amount of difference?
From my limited experience of an S2 (about a month), it was definitely more refined than my S1. Central locking, leccy windows, brakes that work (only kidding, but I nearly went through the windscreen on first use, after my S1), and a simple to fit/remove roof are all improvements. However it did feel a lot more like an "ordinary" car, in that the steering and brakes felt more remote, the car generally higher (my S1 is a little bit lower), bigger and heavier. Despite the driving experience feeling a bit more remote - I felt less likely that I would crash it - but then I wasn't trying as it was a hire car! I suppose it's horses for courses really, what do you want? I'm sure there are plenty of Caterham owners out there who would think that an S1 Elise is very refined and feel that it's too "soft" an option.My S2 111S (no servo brakes), has a similar level of control feel to S1s that I've driven, so I'm interested by your comments. Well, actually, I can have a good guess
I've driven quite a few Elises now and, like Caterhams, they all seem to vary a bit... They're incredibly sensitive to tyre pressures and geo. I think if an S1 and S2 were both set up perfectly the differences would be limited to: the lighter weight and feel of the S1, the increased cabin noise of the S1, and on the standard cars the slightly softer springs of the S1 causing some more roll, especially noticeable at the rear where the engine mass is in transitions (surtees at Brands for instance) and mid corner lift off (the S2 contains it better than the standard S1). I'm not aware that a lighter car like the S1 should necessarily have better steering/brake pedal feel than the S2 on the basis of its weight (in fact my Elise has better feel than either of my Caterhams had, and they were 500kg!); the only differences I'm aware of on heavier cars is a compromised geometry to get away with a lack of power steering, so as the lock increases the linearity of weighting will change slightly - Caterhams and single seaters (~500kg cars) don't suffer from this but Elises do slightly.Also it was a very new S2 (Elise S, I think) that I was given, and if my memory serves me correctly, it had ABS - I tested it, just to see how it would react in a real emergency, of course.
It defo had a toyota engine ('cos the dipstick was in a different place, a right PITA to get to!), and sounded very nice at (high) motorway speeds.
But I will stick by my comment that, yes, I do think my steering and brakes on my S1 do feel more direct. It's what I'm used to driving, so you may think I'd feel that way anyway, but when I got it back from the garage, after a month in the S2, it just felt so much more direct again. Maybe it also has something to do with noise...!
And to the OP, I do still think even an early S2 will feel more refined than a late S1.
I understand. All Toyota engined S2s have servo brakes (federalisation required ABS), which certainly do offer less feedback, a lot more pedal sink and generally feel nowhere near as good as the non-servo brakes. K series engined S2s have non-servoed brakes that feel just like those on the S1 (probably the same braking system to be honest).Yes, if your car is lowered then it will/might be lower than a standard S2. I do believe if you compare two standard cars though the S2 is lower and stiffer.
The S1 is certainly noisier and more raw, but I don't recall it having any more feedback or involvement than the S2. If anything, physcologically I find that I notice more feedback in a quieter car because I'm not being distracted by the lack of NVH - that's just me though - a lot of people make the mistake that the S1 (standard, of course) is the better driver's car just because it's noisier. The truth is that the S2 contained many subtle improvements to the ride and handling. Once you modify both cars though, as you have with yours, I'm sure those differences are blurred if not removed.
Some amount of directness is down to the weight difference of the cars (the S1 was lighter than the S2, and certainly lighter than the Toyota engined S2s!!!) - a lighter car will respond more quickly to direction changes. However, this effect can easily be over-shadowed by suspension setup and geometry (compare a Fiesta with a BMW M3 for example!!). With your comparison of your modified S1 with a standard S2 this is no doubt what's at play.
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