Is that the end for 888 and the like?

[lamb jiblets]

I have just read a worrying bit in evo that 888 etc are going to be band for road use in November 2012, New legislation coming in with tyers having to have a minimum std in the wet, wich the current crop of track day tyers will not meet. So all the dunlope direzza, toyo 888, pilot sport A048 will go

Edited by lamb jiblets on Saturday 20th June 08:20

[bogie]

yes...makes sense though when the number of people spinning/crashing cars shod with them in the winter

Its not as if theres any benfefit on the road from being able to corner at 1.4g instead of 1.2g LOL

biggest hassle will be you either cant use them full stop, or you have to figure out a way of getting a 2nd set of wheels n tyres to your trackday

Im sure the tyre manufacturers will respond to it though with some interesting new rubber ....A048s with tread in them etc to clear water ....ohh...yes, they were called A039s

..at least they will be in high production volume so should be cheaper !

so there we go - sticky styres that work in the wet too - sounds ok to me?

[lamb jiblets]

bogie said:

yes...makes sense though when the number of people spinning/crashing cars shod with them in the winter

Its not as if theres any benfefit on the road from being able to corner at 1.4g instead of 1.2g LOL

biggest hassle will be you either cant use them full stop, or you have to figure out a way of getting a 2nd set of wheels n tyres to your trackday

Im sure the tyre manufacturers will respond to it though with some interesting new rubber ....A048s with tread in them etc to clear water ....ohh...yes, they were called A039s

..at least they will be in high production volume so should be cheaper !

so there we go - sticky styres that work in the wet too - sounds ok to me?

Thats my point, I want to drive to the track and not have a friend follow me up with them in the boot.
I think the manufactures will stop producing them as there will be almost no one buying them, and were be forced back to the competition tyre at an inflated price plus a second set of alloys.

[Jez O]

The article does go on to say they expect tyres will be made in the same compounds as semi-slicks now, but with tread patterns more like 'normal' tyres. As the grip is produced by the soft compound, will it really be a massive difference?

[Scuffers]

not seen said article, but reading the EU stuff, I am not sure how they have come to these conclusions?

[lamb jiblets]

Jez O said:

The article does go on to say they expect tyres will be made in the same compounds as semi-slicks now, but with tread patterns more like 'normal' tyres. As the grip is produced by the soft compound, will it really be a massive difference?

On a track I think so, or they would be making them now, soft compound is one thing but the more rubber in contact with the road the more grip. (in the dry!) (not to be confused with grip on a bald set of road tyres.)

Edited by lamb jiblets on Saturday 20th June 11:47

[dom180]

It will lead to better tyres - tyre technology advances at a fast old rate. If A039s were as cheap as AO48s, most would opt for them anyway I would have thought!

The difference in laptimes between AD07s and AO48s is pretty small in the dry anyway - factor in that AO48s fronts are wider and its less still.

And remember AO48s are an old design - I bet the latest optimal performance spec Pirelli P-zero Corsa road tyres are just as grippy.

Edited by dom180 on Saturday 20th June 13:49

[cyberface]

Bit of a bugger for those who purposely invested in winter tyres for winter, and prefer to use trackday stickies in the summer then?

I agree that A048Rs etc. are hugely sub-optimal in the winter, but instead of nanny-state banning of anything remotely dodgy, how about having proper summer/winter tyre regulation, i.e. all-season tyres OK all year round, winter tyres OK in winter, summer tyres OK in summer. Continental Europe has rules like this. Link the rules to insurance i.e. if you cause an accident in the middle of winter with A048Rs on then it's your lookout.

That would at least give those who take responsibility for their own actions the ability to choose sticky tyres for summer and proper low-temp compound for winter. And all those who use 'normal' tyres now won't be affected as they'd be considered 'all-season' tyres.

That said, Scuffers has a point - if the proposed legislation is driven by Europe, then it's highly unlikely that all 'permitted' tyres must meet a minimum performance in the worst winter conditions per country - central Europe has severe winters and the Alpine regions get very cold, and only full-on winter tyres have any performance whatsoever in packed snow (common in midwinter at altitude...)

[Gad-Westy]

Jez O said:

The article does go on to say they expect tyres will be made in the same compounds as semi-slicks now, but with tread patterns more like 'normal' tyres. As the grip is produced by the soft compound, will it really be a massive difference?

Sounds pretty similar to what Avon did with CR500 for Caterham which is a great tyre for all conditions. They don't last long but certainly no worse than 048's and the like. To be honest I think the new ruling sounds like quite a good idea.

[footsoldier]

cyberface said:

Bit of a bugger for those who purposely invested in winter tyres for winter, and prefer to use trackday stickies in the summer then?

I think November 2012 introduction gives them time to get their money's worth..!

[S Works]

More pointless macro-'protection' policy for no good reason, abdicating responsibility from the individual in a misplaced attempt to make the world 'safer'. Utter bks.

The tyre manufacturers will simply create new compound which will do similar, even with whatever grooves/tread is specified as "safe" by the Euro-numpties.

[cyberface]

The bullst that pisses me off is the fact that the likely 'rules' are going to be based on visible tread i.e. make the tyre look like a 'normal' tyre since the 'trackday' cut slicks are so 'obviously dangerous'.

In reality what the tyre manufacturers will do (as pointed out by Tim) is to make the same compound in a 'treaded' form. But more than that - to give similar performance to the cut slicks (due to the large 'tread blocks') they'll simply make the tread depth lower to reduce 'treadblock' movement. As per the Michelin and Pirelli super-stickies on the M3 CSL and 911 GT3, they'll look like treaded road tyres but only have just over the minimum legal tread depth and will be just as susceptible to aquaplaning as A048Rs, if not more.

If it really is a minimum stopping distance type test, then actually the current trackday stickies perform reasonably well in UK winters, as long as the surface is dry and not below freezing. Well enough to keep up with 'budget' Korean non-name rubber, at least.

So not only will the 'approved' tyres be just as dodgy in the cold (compound) and wet (tread depth) as the current trackday stickies, they'll need to be replaced much more frequently because of the minimal tread depth. At least A048Rs and 888s have generous tread depth because they can get away with it (not much tread squirm when you've only got a couple of cuts across the width of the tyre )...

Regardless of what rules are passed, it's just going to make performance motoring more expensive, by the looks of things

[S Works]

Either that or we'll all just go back to lower powered cars, with less grip, less weight, and we'll all become better drivers. Here's to the next Lotus Elan

[cyberface]

S Works said:

Either that or we'll all just go back to lower powered cars, with less grip, less weight, and we'll all become better drivers. Here's to the next Lotus Elan

Nice dream

You know as well as I that the 'next Lotus Elan' will have traction control, a robot automatic gearbox and will be 'class leading low weight' at 1500 kg

I'd have loved to have seen the Smart Roadster with a revvy nasp engine and a proper manual gearbox - now that would have been neat and very much a 'less is more' approach - but sadly there are few of us who'd prefer low weight and low power to heavy weight and electronics / power / comfort...

Of course, the simple approach is to get an old car and uprate as required e.g. put a modern low-maintenance engine and proper brakes in. You have to be happy with the active safety / passive safety trade-off though, since most lightweight older cars wouldn't stand up well against the women in Cayenne Turbos yapping away on their mobile phones you see endangering everyone round here

[dom180]

S Works said:

Either that or we'll all just go back to lower powered cars, with less grip, less weight, and we'll all become better drivers. Here's to the next Lotus Elan

Or Caterham on 165s....

Edited: Cyberface's concerns over safety being a very valid point though - the only thing putting me off a Caterham.

Edited by dom180 on Sunday 21st June 18:33

[S Works]

dom180 said:

S Works said:

Either that or we'll all just go back to lower powered cars, with less grip, less weight, and we'll all become better drivers. Here's to the next Lotus Elan

Or Caterham on 165s....

Edited: Cyberface's concerns over safety being a very valid point though - the only thing putting me off a Caterham.

Meh, go do a day with Bookatrack in one of their Superlights. That or an R300'll be my next toy.

[Russ H]

What are people setting their AO48's at on the road? 24/26 here.

Russ.

[sa_20v]

bogie said:

yes...makes sense though when the number of people spinning/crashing cars shod with them in the winter

Unfortunately, this law like so many in the UK acts only to cater to lowest common denominator - in this case the performance car owner who believes his/her car has the same level of grip in poor driving conditions as on a hot summers day. There are hundreds of people on here who use such tyres throughout the year, even in the worst conditions, without any issues. However, a small minority crawl on here in the winter months wondering why their car ended up facing the wrong direction when exiting a roundabout or aqua-planed on a straight piece of road!

If everyone adapted their driving style to the road conditions we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Edited by sa_20v on Monday 22 June 10:46

[bogie]

sa_20v said:

bogie said:

yes...makes sense though when the number of people spinning/crashing cars shod with them in the winter

Unfortunately, this law like so many in the UK acts only to cater to lowest common denominator - in this case the performance car owner who believes his/her car has the same level of grip in poor driving conditions as on a hot summers day. There are hundreds of people on here who use such tyres throughout the year, even in the worst conditions, without any issues. However, a small minority crawl on here in the winter months wondering why their car ended up facing the wrong direction when exiting a roundabout or aqua-planed on a straight piece of road!

If everyone adapted their driving style to the road conditions we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Edited by sa_20v on Monday 22 June 10:46

of course ...but thats just how these laws work ...and cars will continue to be downgraded/banned in various ways as the govt tries to protect us from ourselves.....

I still reckon we could be into double figures on here and SELOC this winter with cars "spinning for no reason" and "diesel" LOL

...whats the govt doing about that eh ? ...I think we ought to start a petition against lorrys - ban them from the roads and put it on freight instead, as they cause too much hassle by spilling diesel at roundabouts

[S Works]

Like I said...

S Works said:

More pointless macro-'protection' policy for no good reason, abdicating responsibility from the individual in a misplaced attempt to make the world 'safer'. Utter bks.