Basic differences between S2 Elise and Exige
Discussion
I am trying to choose between getting an S2 Elise Honda conversion or an S2 Exige, and I am trying to find out exactly the differences at a simple level of explanation. Could the great and knowledgeable of this forum fill in the following blanks please?
Engine: Different obviously. I'm happy that I understand the differences in this area for now thanx.
Body: ??? I understand the Exige generates a lot more down force - how much is this to do with the body. Exige has a big rear wing and splitter that the Elise does not. What other advantages of the Exige bodywork may there be? Are there under floor aerodynamic and diffuser differences?
Suspension: ???
Brakes: ???
Wheels & tyres: ???
Ideally, I'd like an S2 Exige with Honda power, but that doesn't seem possible yet. If you change enough parts can an S2 Elise be affectively converted to an S2 Exige, or is there stuff that cannot be converted?
I tried searching the forum, but couldn't find a comprehensive answer.
Many thanx in advance.
Engine: Different obviously. I'm happy that I understand the differences in this area for now thanx.
Body: ??? I understand the Exige generates a lot more down force - how much is this to do with the body. Exige has a big rear wing and splitter that the Elise does not. What other advantages of the Exige bodywork may there be? Are there under floor aerodynamic and diffuser differences?
Suspension: ???
Brakes: ???
Wheels & tyres: ???
Ideally, I'd like an S2 Exige with Honda power, but that doesn't seem possible yet. If you change enough parts can an S2 Elise be affectively converted to an S2 Exige, or is there stuff that cannot be converted?
I tried searching the forum, but couldn't find a comprehensive answer.
Many thanx in advance.
Engine: Different obviously. I'm happy that I understand the differences in this area for now thanx.
Body: ??? I understand the Exige generates a lot more down force - how much is this to do with the body. Exige has a big rear wing and splitter that the Elise does not. What other advantages of the Exige bodywork may there be? Are there under floor aerodynamic and diffuser differences?
>>>no downforce worth worrying about, that a front splitter and diffuser on an Elise wont sort out
Suspension: ???
>>>S2 Exige different, but if the other car has a Honda in , you bet the owner has upgraded the suspension too
Brakes: ???
>>>No difference - again, id expect a Honda converted car to have upgraded ones thoough
Wheels & tyres: ???
>>>again, should be sorted on a Honda ELise - you wouldnt run skinny fronts with 220bhp plus ....
Ideally, I'd like an S2 Exige with Honda power, but that doesn't seem possible yet. If you change enough parts can an S2 Elise be affectively converted to an S2 Exige, or is there stuff that cannot be converted?
>>>has been done a few times, everything can be swapped, they are essentially the same car underneath - its cosmetic, thats all ...you can even take the roof off an S2 Exige ...not cheap though if you buy all new parts and pay someone - at least £6K to change....DIY, maybe can be done for £3k, with some shopping around on 2nd hand bits
try SELOC engine conversion forum for wealth of info .....www.seloc.org
Body: ??? I understand the Exige generates a lot more down force - how much is this to do with the body. Exige has a big rear wing and splitter that the Elise does not. What other advantages of the Exige bodywork may there be? Are there under floor aerodynamic and diffuser differences?
>>>no downforce worth worrying about, that a front splitter and diffuser on an Elise wont sort out
Suspension: ???
>>>S2 Exige different, but if the other car has a Honda in , you bet the owner has upgraded the suspension too
Brakes: ???
>>>No difference - again, id expect a Honda converted car to have upgraded ones thoough
Wheels & tyres: ???
>>>again, should be sorted on a Honda ELise - you wouldnt run skinny fronts with 220bhp plus ....
Ideally, I'd like an S2 Exige with Honda power, but that doesn't seem possible yet. If you change enough parts can an S2 Elise be affectively converted to an S2 Exige, or is there stuff that cannot be converted?
>>>has been done a few times, everything can be swapped, they are essentially the same car underneath - its cosmetic, thats all ...you can even take the roof off an S2 Exige ...not cheap though if you buy all new parts and pay someone - at least £6K to change....DIY, maybe can be done for £3k, with some shopping around on 2nd hand bits
try SELOC engine conversion forum for wealth of info .....www.seloc.org
IIRC there's a photo diary from a guy on SELOC who took a K-series S2 Elise (which is the main issue - K-series cars have a popular, well-known and proven Honda conversion kit available, so you can convert a K series car to Honda power regardless of whether it's S1 or S2. However whilst both S1 and S2 Elises came with K series engines, S2 Exiges only come with Toyota engines) and proceeded to change the required body panels to get as close to an S2 Exige as possible (it's pretty much just swap and bolt on, but the platform on the rear longerons is higher on the Exige IIRC).
Once you've done this, you can then Honda the car and you've got a Honda S2 Exige. But it'll be a bitsa and you'll have to want it regardless of cost, since you won't recoup any of the money (well-built Honda Elises, without body hacking, sell for good money though).
There's less incentive for someone to develop a kit to swap the standard Toyota engines in the current Elise and Exige for Honda, since the Toyota engine isn't *that* bad and can be both tuned and blown to similar outputs. The Honda may be the better engine, but the difference isn't like the difference between a K series and a Honda... you can see why the original conversion was so desirable!
Personally I wouldn't bother swapping the Toyota motor for a Honda 2 litre - if we're talking forced induction then the Toyota can be modified to large enough outputs to trash the transmission anyway, and if staying N/A then the Yota screams round to 8k and develops reasonable power. Both the Yota and the Honda are of the same Japanese mould of high-revving, high-power but modest torque, big bike engines (sort of). For something different without going big forced induction for mega power and torque, the 2.3 tuned Duratec motor would be cool, since it produces a lot more torque than the screamers, but still is capable of 300 bhp N/A tuned by the right guys. And it's light.
Maybe there'll be someone keen enough to swap the Toyota in the S2 Exige for one of those? That'd be great IMO.
The trouble is that the S2 Exiges are now pretty refined, reliable cars that work well out of the box. Even for a serial modifier and engine-swapper like me, there isn't that instant 'I must put a better engine in this car' desire because, at last, the OEM engine does a reasonable job...
Once you've done this, you can then Honda the car and you've got a Honda S2 Exige. But it'll be a bitsa and you'll have to want it regardless of cost, since you won't recoup any of the money (well-built Honda Elises, without body hacking, sell for good money though).
There's less incentive for someone to develop a kit to swap the standard Toyota engines in the current Elise and Exige for Honda, since the Toyota engine isn't *that* bad and can be both tuned and blown to similar outputs. The Honda may be the better engine, but the difference isn't like the difference between a K series and a Honda... you can see why the original conversion was so desirable!
Personally I wouldn't bother swapping the Toyota motor for a Honda 2 litre - if we're talking forced induction then the Toyota can be modified to large enough outputs to trash the transmission anyway, and if staying N/A then the Yota screams round to 8k and develops reasonable power. Both the Yota and the Honda are of the same Japanese mould of high-revving, high-power but modest torque, big bike engines (sort of). For something different without going big forced induction for mega power and torque, the 2.3 tuned Duratec motor would be cool, since it produces a lot more torque than the screamers, but still is capable of 300 bhp N/A tuned by the right guys. And it's light.
Maybe there'll be someone keen enough to swap the Toyota in the S2 Exige for one of those? That'd be great IMO.
The trouble is that the S2 Exiges are now pretty refined, reliable cars that work well out of the box. Even for a serial modifier and engine-swapper like me, there isn't that instant 'I must put a better engine in this car' desire because, at last, the OEM engine does a reasonable job...
S2 Toyota/Honda swap is being done, however, how much demand for it I would not like to guess.
it's actually worked out better than the Rover/Honda swap as there is way more room to play with, only real downers is the cars are heavier to start with and somewhat less rigid at the rear end.
it's actually worked out better than the Rover/Honda swap as there is way more room to play with, only real downers is the cars are heavier to start with and somewhat less rigid at the rear end.
Cheers for the response chaps! I'm thinking about a 190 Exige for now, and then upgrade the power a few years later by tuning the Toyota or Honda conversion (if/when available.) I'm assuming that the removed Toyota 190 engine would have some re-sale value (eg: to upgrade a lower power Toyota Elise) that would offset a little of the Honda conversion cost. I'm thinking 250HP as a first upgrade step, which I believe can be done without supercharging on the Honda, but I'm not so sure about the Toyota. Then later, if I feel I need more power, maybe 300HP+ by supercharging.
So the only bodywork differences are the obvious shape differences that can immediately be seen, front splitter and rear wing? According to the Exige article on wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Exige) "The sole purpose of these aerodynamic additions to the base Elise is to create more downforce (almost 100 lb (45 kg) of downforce at 100 mph (160 km/h) in the Exige versus 13 lb (5.9 kg) at 100 mph (160 km/h) in the Elise)." That seems an awful big difference. Is there nothing different under the floor? Is the Exige rear diffuser the same as the one on the Elise?
Basically, would an Elise with good front splitter and rear wing added have pretty much the same kind of aerodynamic characteristics and downforce as an Exige? Obviously, I'm thinking about how they compare for trackdays - I'd like to have the Exige handling advantages on the track; doesn't matter for normal road use.
So I take it the Exige suspension is stronger and/or geometrically difference, but can be bolted onto an Elise, yes? Is it the wishbones, or springs/shocks, or both that are different? I am aware of an happy to use the Ohlins or Nitron after market shocks and springs.
So the standard Exige brakes are the same as the Elise, except I think the Toyota engined cars introduced servo brakes, so a Rover Elise converted to Honda power would be non-servo I suppose, yes? When upgrading it seems most people stick with the standard brake callipers (single pot?), and just upgrade the pads and maybe the disks, but without increasing the diameter. I assume there are bigger disk and 4-pot calliper conversions available but often considered unnecessary. I didn't feel I needed to improve the stopping power of my TVR Griffith brakes, but changed to bigger disks and 4-pot callipers to get rid of heat problems on the track. However, I was very pleasantly surprised by the hugely improved stopping capability. I imagine I would want a similar upgrade to an Elise or Exige, but will wait and see.
So the Exige has better/bigger wheels and tyres, but they can be bolted straight onto an Elise, yes?
Scuffers - do you have details about the Toyota->Honda conversion please? Who, when, how much, etc?
Yes, I'll read more at www.seloc.org.
So the only bodywork differences are the obvious shape differences that can immediately be seen, front splitter and rear wing? According to the Exige article on wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Exige) "The sole purpose of these aerodynamic additions to the base Elise is to create more downforce (almost 100 lb (45 kg) of downforce at 100 mph (160 km/h) in the Exige versus 13 lb (5.9 kg) at 100 mph (160 km/h) in the Elise)." That seems an awful big difference. Is there nothing different under the floor? Is the Exige rear diffuser the same as the one on the Elise?
Basically, would an Elise with good front splitter and rear wing added have pretty much the same kind of aerodynamic characteristics and downforce as an Exige? Obviously, I'm thinking about how they compare for trackdays - I'd like to have the Exige handling advantages on the track; doesn't matter for normal road use.
So I take it the Exige suspension is stronger and/or geometrically difference, but can be bolted onto an Elise, yes? Is it the wishbones, or springs/shocks, or both that are different? I am aware of an happy to use the Ohlins or Nitron after market shocks and springs.
So the standard Exige brakes are the same as the Elise, except I think the Toyota engined cars introduced servo brakes, so a Rover Elise converted to Honda power would be non-servo I suppose, yes? When upgrading it seems most people stick with the standard brake callipers (single pot?), and just upgrade the pads and maybe the disks, but without increasing the diameter. I assume there are bigger disk and 4-pot calliper conversions available but often considered unnecessary. I didn't feel I needed to improve the stopping power of my TVR Griffith brakes, but changed to bigger disks and 4-pot callipers to get rid of heat problems on the track. However, I was very pleasantly surprised by the hugely improved stopping capability. I imagine I would want a similar upgrade to an Elise or Exige, but will wait and see.
So the Exige has better/bigger wheels and tyres, but they can be bolted straight onto an Elise, yes?
Scuffers - do you have details about the Toyota->Honda conversion please? Who, when, how much, etc?
Yes, I'll read more at www.seloc.org.
Edited by Pum on Tuesday 13th October 16:00
Edited by Pum on Tuesday 13th October 16:00
Don't be fooled into thinking a standard Exige is a lot better on track than a standard Elise with the same engine. In the real world the difference is very minor. The driver plays far more part in it than any spoiler or suspension. True to Exige suspension is firmer than the standard Elise and better suited to the track but even after only a few track days I'm finding the standard Exige suspension lacking. Anyone serious would be upgrading this ASAP and that applies to both cars. Same applies to geo settings.
As for brakes, they're all the same. What makes the difference is the pads. The OEM pads are utter crap, Mintex better for road and a bit of track but show their limits quite quickly. Pagids are a favourite but I've just pud a set of performance friction compound 97 pads in and first impressions are fantastic.
Wheels are much of a muchness. Again tyres are the key, A048 or Toyo 888 for the track and a range of others more suited to the road.
Have a good read up on Seloc and you'll get a few ideas.
Personally, I went for an Exige as I prefer the look over the Elise and that was about it.
As for brakes, they're all the same. What makes the difference is the pads. The OEM pads are utter crap, Mintex better for road and a bit of track but show their limits quite quickly. Pagids are a favourite but I've just pud a set of performance friction compound 97 pads in and first impressions are fantastic.
Wheels are much of a muchness. Again tyres are the key, A048 or Toyo 888 for the track and a range of others more suited to the road.
Have a good read up on Seloc and you'll get a few ideas.
Personally, I went for an Exige as I prefer the look over the Elise and that was about it.
Tony's words above ^^^ are sound.
A good map on an NA Honda will get you near to 240bhp (which is ~200 at the hubs).
Re: downforce, red herring if you ask me. My NA Honda'd Elise was brilliantly stable all the way upto 140mph down the back straight on the Bedford GP circuit, at 100mph+ down Craner Curves, as fast as I dare go round Paddock at Brands etc. etc. and I never felt the need to add more "wing". If I had though, I'd have gone the route that some have and had a proper splitter made, and a motorsport rear wing... bit overkill for road use and most trackdays though really. In short, I wouldn't read to much into those figures above.
Standard calipers work fine, better pads, braided lines and DOT5.1 fluid will see you right. Disk upgrades are possible and there are larger than standard AP options. Most people find the standard size plenty good enough. I'd stick with the pads/lines/fluid first and then go bigger if you feel the need. Better still, just get a car with all the above done if you can.
Pum said:
Cheers for the response chaps! I'm thinking about a 190 Exige for now, and then upgrade the power a few years later by tuning the Toyota or Honda conversion (if/when available.) I'm assuming that the removed Toyota 190 engine would have some re-sale value (eg: to upgrade a lower power Toyota Elise) that would offset a little of the Honda conversion cost. I'm thinking 250HP as a first upgrade step, which I believe can be done without supercharging on the Honda, but I'm not so sure about the Toyota. Then later, if I feel I need more power, maybe 300HP+ by supercharging.
A 190bhp Exige feels utterly gutless compared to an NA Honda'd car. The Honda lump is a much more refined engine, and in my humble opinion, a far better unit to tune than the Toyota. I wouldn't want to start putting 300bhp through a Toyota, but I'd be perfectly happy doing so with the K20a (based entirely on the experiences of others and the extensive use that the Link-Up & Sinclaires conversions have had on road and track over the past few years).A good map on an NA Honda will get you near to 240bhp (which is ~200 at the hubs).
Pum said:
So the only bodywork differences are the obvious shape differences that can immediately be seen, front splitter and rear wing? According to the Exige article on wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Exige) "The sole purpose of these aerodynamic additions to the base Elise is to create more downforce (almost 100 lb (45 kg) of downforce at 100 mph (160 km/h) in the Exige versus 13 lb (5.9 kg) at 100 mph (160 km/h) in the Elise)." That seems an awful big difference. Is there nothing different under the floor? Is the Exige rear diffuser the same as the one on the Elise?
Re: bodywork question, more or less, yes. The clams are different too.Re: downforce, red herring if you ask me. My NA Honda'd Elise was brilliantly stable all the way upto 140mph down the back straight on the Bedford GP circuit, at 100mph+ down Craner Curves, as fast as I dare go round Paddock at Brands etc. etc. and I never felt the need to add more "wing". If I had though, I'd have gone the route that some have and had a proper splitter made, and a motorsport rear wing... bit overkill for road use and most trackdays though really. In short, I wouldn't read to much into those figures above.
Pum said:
Basically, would an Elise with good front splitter and rear wing added have pretty much the same kind of aerodynamic characteristics and downforce as an Exige? Obviously, I'm thinking about how they compare for trackdays - I'd like to have the Exige handling advantages on the track; doesn't matter for normal road use.
Yes, probably better. The most important thing for handling on trackdays is the set-up you're running IMO... unless you're planning on racing it, in which case you might want to invest further. By set-up I mean complete suspension/geo/tyre combination. Get a good one and the car will handle like a dream. I'd talk to someone like Scuffers on here, Chris Randall at Hoffmans of Henley, or the likes of Sinclaire of Romford or Plans Motorsport if you're interested in what really works. They have pretty much done it all for fast road, trackdays, and race prep.Pum said:
So I take it the Exige suspension is stronger and/or geometrically difference, but can be bolted onto an Elise, yes? Is it the wishbones, or springs/shocks, or both that are different? I am aware of an happy to use the Ohlins or Nitron after market shocks and springs.
Damper/spring rates differ, the geo is different, and the Exige has solid toe links at the rear for strength. I believe the Exige has ARB's too as standard (at least a front one), not all Elises do. Either way, getting an upgraded adjustable one is a good mod.Pum said:
So the standard Exige brakes are the same as the Elise, except I think the Toyota engined cars introduced servo brakes, so a Rover Elise converted to Honda power would be non-servo I suppose, yes? When upgrading it seems most people stick with the standard brake callipers (single pot?), and just upgrade the pads and maybe the disks, but without increasing the diameter. I assume there are bigger disk and 4-pot calliper conversions available but often considered unnecessary. I didn't feel I needed to improve the stopping power of my TVR Griffith brakes, but changed to bigger disks and 4-pot callipers to get rid of heat problems on the track. However, I was very pleasantly surprised by the hugely improved stopping capability. I imagine I would want a similar upgrade to an Elise or Exige, but will wait and see.
Toyota have servo'd brakes, yes. Rover-engined ones didn't.Standard calipers work fine, better pads, braided lines and DOT5.1 fluid will see you right. Disk upgrades are possible and there are larger than standard AP options. Most people find the standard size plenty good enough. I'd stick with the pads/lines/fluid first and then go bigger if you feel the need. Better still, just get a car with all the above done if you can.
Pum said:
So the Exige has better/bigger wheels and tyres, but they can be bolted straight onto an Elise, yes?
Scuffers - do you have details about the Toyota->Honda conversion please? Who, when, how much, etc?
Yes, I'll read more at www.seloc.org.
Exige wheels can be bolted straight onto Toyota engined Elise hubs, but need spacers for a Rover engined car (different offset). More info on SELOC techwiki. There are other options though if you want to run wider fronts (e.g. TMR and Racing Dynamics).Scuffers - do you have details about the Toyota->Honda conversion please? Who, when, how much, etc?
Yes, I'll read more at www.seloc.org.
RonnieP said:
Don't bother converting 
folk are converting S1 Honda coversions back to K's at the moment because they can't sell them into Europe where the market is. Fact
LOL! folk are converting S1 Honda coversions back to K's at the moment because they can't sell them into Europe where the market is. Fact yea, that's right, there are none in Europe at all, and nobody has ever done the tests and paperwork to make them legal in Europe either...
RonnieP said:
Don't bother converting folk are converting S1 Honda coversions back to K's at the moment because they can't sell them into Europe where the market is. Fact
Even if that were 100% the case, it doesn't matter unless you're planning on selling really, and as the OP is planning on buying, well you get the picture folk are converting S1 Honda coversions back to K's at the moment because they can't sell them into Europe where the market is. Fact Better of financially speaking buying a car with one of the well respected and known conversions already done, along with the other bits like suspension etc.
Scuffers said:
RonnieP said:
Don't bother converting folk are converting S1 Honda coversions back to K's at the moment because they can't sell them into Europe where the market is. Fact
LOL! folk are converting S1 Honda coversions back to K's at the moment because they can't sell them into Europe where the market is. Fact yea, that's right, there are none in Europe at all, and nobody has ever done the tests and paperwork to make them legal in Europe either...
- another opportunity to post your link to linkup LivinLaVidaLotus said:
... one of the well respected and known conversions ...
So I've heard and read about the Link-Up and Sinclaires conversions, and they seem sound and reputable. However, I've heard very little about the Phoenix conversion - can anyone comment? I figure it is sound and I like that it uses a fully mappable ECU (Omex.) Any notable differences, advantages or disadvantages of one conversion over another? Best keep such comments factual, I imagine.Cheers.
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