Engine swaps: why don't they use these engines?
Discussion
Hi,
I've been reading alot lately about the elise and their engine swaps.
However, I can't stop wondering why I haven't seen one of these engines in an elise/exige:
2l turbo from the Lancer Evo
2l/2.5l turbo from the Subaru Impreza WRX (STI)
2l turbo (sr20det) from the Nissan 200SX/Sunny GTI-R(that's a 4WD)
or the rotaryengine from an rx7/rx8(finding the right transmission is the problem here, I guess?)
All these engines have great potential, and since they came from a 4WD, there transmission should work for the MR setup of the elise/exige(?). They also use those turbo audi engines, why taking those above these?
I've been reading alot lately about the elise and their engine swaps.
However, I can't stop wondering why I haven't seen one of these engines in an elise/exige:
2l turbo from the Lancer Evo
2l/2.5l turbo from the Subaru Impreza WRX (STI)
2l turbo (sr20det) from the Nissan 200SX/Sunny GTI-R(that's a 4WD)
or the rotaryengine from an rx7/rx8(finding the right transmission is the problem here, I guess?)
All these engines have great potential, and since they came from a 4WD, there transmission should work for the MR setup of the elise/exige(?). They also use those turbo audi engines, why taking those above these?
weight
packaging
why reinvent the wheel, for a niche market product, when there are 3 main options out there already in a crowded niche market?
many, many engines have gone in the back of ELises as "one-off money no object" projects e.g. Maxda rotarys, Rover T, 1300 Busa, 2.7V6 Audi, 3.2V6 VW as well as the usual Ford, Honda and Audi options that are real *productionised* kits
doing a one off for yourself at great expense, because you want something different, is another ball game to making a quality, warrantied, professional product you can make a profit on
packaging
why reinvent the wheel, for a niche market product, when there are 3 main options out there already in a crowded niche market?
many, many engines have gone in the back of ELises as "one-off money no object" projects e.g. Maxda rotarys, Rover T, 1300 Busa, 2.7V6 Audi, 3.2V6 VW as well as the usual Ford, Honda and Audi options that are real *productionised* kits
doing a one off for yourself at great expense, because you want something different, is another ball game to making a quality, warrantied, professional product you can make a profit on
Well, do you know a site where I could find the weights of those engines?
I'm not so certain that for example an audi engine is lighter than an evo engine.
Also, do you have a topic/site of the rotary conversion? I've been looking for such a conversion, but couldn't find anything. It's probably one of the best engines they could put in an elise(very light, but very powerful, AND revhappy)
I'm not so certain that for example an audi engine is lighter than an evo engine.
Also, do you have a topic/site of the rotary conversion? I've been looking for such a conversion, but couldn't find anything. It's probably one of the best engines they could put in an elise(very light, but very powerful, AND revhappy)
ignoring weights, think physical size, Evo engine is not exactly small, and what are you going to use for a gearbox?
it's also not that great an engine, yes you can boost it to death, but you can do that with just about any engine.
Subaru engines might well be great, but they are also massive as they are flat 4's, how do you propose to fit one in the space (and back to what you are going to use for a gearbox?
People keep going on about Focus ST engines, but that are straight 5's, how wide are they then?
what I am saying is consider how big an engine is in the context of how small the Elise is before suggesting something patently stupid.
it's also not that great an engine, yes you can boost it to death, but you can do that with just about any engine.
Subaru engines might well be great, but they are also massive as they are flat 4's, how do you propose to fit one in the space (and back to what you are going to use for a gearbox?
People keep going on about Focus ST engines, but that are straight 5's, how wide are they then?
what I am saying is consider how big an engine is in the context of how small the Elise is before suggesting something patently stupid.
Terror Factor said:
Well, do you know a site where I could find the weights of those engines?
I'm not so certain that for example an audi engine is lighter than an evo engine.
Also, do you have a topic/site of the rotary conversion? I've been looking for such a conversion, but couldn't find anything. It's probably one of the best engines they could put in an elise(very light, but very powerful, AND revhappy)
try the engine conversion forum on www.seloc.org for a huge amount of info, and links n pics to just about every engine conversion ever...and dozens and dozens of threads over the last 10 years as to why/why not an engine is in the back of an Elise...I'm not so certain that for example an audi engine is lighter than an evo engine.
Also, do you have a topic/site of the rotary conversion? I've been looking for such a conversion, but couldn't find anything. It's probably one of the best engines they could put in an elise(very light, but very powerful, AND revhappy)
what you want is an 2.6L V8 supercharged - as light as they come, and 550bhp...you should be able to pick one up for £30k, then a £20K box, and say £10K for someone to get it in ..then you will have something that no-one else has gone through with yet
Forgot to mention the Focus ST engine, thought of that one too.
Also, that is EXACTLY why I'm asking, because I'm not aware of the size of the engines and the engineroom in the elise.
Also, can't the standard gearboxes be used, since the car is normally an FWD, so I guess the engine layout is the same as in an FWD car?
Also, that is EXACTLY why I'm asking, because I'm not aware of the size of the engines and the engineroom in the elise.
Also, can't the standard gearboxes be used, since the car is normally an FWD, so I guess the engine layout is the same as in an FWD car?
Scuffers said:
ignoring weights, think physical size, Evo engine is not exactly small, and what are you going to use for a gearbox?
it's also not that great an engine, yes you can boost it to death, but you can do that with just about any engine.
Subaru engines might well be great, but they are also massive as they are flat 4's, how do you propose to fit one in the space (and back to what you are going to use for a gearbox?
People keep going on about Focus ST engines, but that are straight 5's, how wide are they then?
what I am saying is consider how big an engine is in the context of how small the Elise is before suggesting something patently stupid.
it's also not that great an engine, yes you can boost it to death, but you can do that with just about any engine.
Subaru engines might well be great, but they are also massive as they are flat 4's, how do you propose to fit one in the space (and back to what you are going to use for a gearbox?
People keep going on about Focus ST engines, but that are straight 5's, how wide are they then?
what I am saying is consider how big an engine is in the context of how small the Elise is before suggesting something patently stupid.
AFAIK they are already busy with that
However, that engine seems to be FAR from reliable and needs very frequent rebuilds. Also, 50k for a more powerful engine is quite a difference with 10-15k
what you want is an 2.6L V8 supercharged - as light as they come, and 550bhp...you should be able to pick one up for £30k, then a £20K box, and say £10K for someone to get it in ..then you will have something that no-one else has gone through with yet
However, that engine seems to be FAR from reliable and needs very frequent rebuilds. Also, 50k for a more powerful engine is quite a difference with 10-15kbogie said:
Terror Factor said:
Well, do you know a site where I could find the weights of those engines?
I'm not so certain that for example an audi engine is lighter than an evo engine.
Also, do you have a topic/site of the rotary conversion? I've been looking for such a conversion, but couldn't find anything. It's probably one of the best engines they could put in an elise(very light, but very powerful, AND revhappy)
try the engine conversion forum on www.seloc.org for a huge amount of info, and links n pics to just about every engine conversion ever...and dozens and dozens of threads over the last 10 years as to why/why not an engine is in the back of an Elise...I'm not so certain that for example an audi engine is lighter than an evo engine.
Also, do you have a topic/site of the rotary conversion? I've been looking for such a conversion, but couldn't find anything. It's probably one of the best engines they could put in an elise(very light, but very powerful, AND revhappy)
what you want is an 2.6L V8 supercharged - as light as they come, and 550bhp...you should be able to pick one up for £30k, then a £20K box, and say £10K for someone to get it in ..then you will have something that no-one else has gone through with yet
Terror Factor said:
Forgot to mention the Focus ST engine, thought of that one too.
Also, that is EXACTLY why I'm asking, because I'm not aware of the size of the engines and the engineroom in the elise.
Also, can't the standard gearboxes be used, since the car is normally an FWD, so I guess the engine layout is the same as in an FWD car?
you never lifted the bonnet of an Evo?Also, that is EXACTLY why I'm asking, because I'm not aware of the size of the engines and the engineroom in the elise.
Also, can't the standard gearboxes be used, since the car is normally an FWD, so I guess the engine layout is the same as in an FWD car?
Scuffers said:
ignoring weights, think physical size, Evo engine is not exactly small, and what are you going to use for a gearbox?
it's also not that great an engine, yes you can boost it to death, but you can do that with just about any engine.
Subaru engines might well be great, but they are also massive as they are flat 4's, how do you propose to fit one in the space (and back to what you are going to use for a gearbox?
People keep going on about Focus ST engines, but that are straight 5's, how wide are they then?
what I am saying is consider how big an engine is in the context of how small the Elise is before suggesting something patently stupid.
it's also not that great an engine, yes you can boost it to death, but you can do that with just about any engine.
Subaru engines might well be great, but they are also massive as they are flat 4's, how do you propose to fit one in the space (and back to what you are going to use for a gearbox?
People keep going on about Focus ST engines, but that are straight 5's, how wide are they then?
what I am saying is consider how big an engine is in the context of how small the Elise is before suggesting something patently stupid.
with respect, by a tape measure!
Well, that's why I'm asking. You've only mentioned something of the evo and wrx engine, you didn't say anything about the rotary engine, nor the SR20DET.
Also, someone mentioned the heat issues, I wondered why the heat wasn't an issue with the audi and supercharged vtec. Is that so farfetched?
EDIT: other than that, there are people who succeed in putting a chevy V8 in an elise/exige, so everything is possible.
EDIT 2: The Evo engine is an FWD engine, so the layout would be appropiate for the Elise.
The WRX engine(well, some version of it) is also used in a FF car, so the layout would also work with the Elise.
The SR20DET is also used in an FF car. So there is no issue in that aspect, except for the rotary engine.
Also, someone mentioned the heat issues, I wondered why the heat wasn't an issue with the audi and supercharged vtec. Is that so farfetched?
EDIT: other than that, there are people who succeed in putting a chevy V8 in an elise/exige, so everything is possible.
EDIT 2: The Evo engine is an FWD engine, so the layout would be appropiate for the Elise.
The WRX engine(well, some version of it) is also used in a FF car, so the layout would also work with the Elise.
The SR20DET is also used in an FF car. So there is no issue in that aspect, except for the rotary engine.
Edited by Terror Factor on Thursday 4th February 21:26
Engines originally intended to be mounted longitudinally wouldn't work in an Elise because the original platform was to use a *small* FWD shopping hatch engine. Remember that the K-series was originally a Metro engine, it was very light weight, 1.4 litre capacity. It was stretched to 1.8 but the actual block and ancillaries are a *small* package. The car was designed around that.
That's the reason the SR20DET wouldn't be a goer. Also any of the 5-pot engines would be too long.
Basically the Lotus chassis needs a compact inline 4. You also have to choose based on which side the exhaust comes out - if the exhaust goes forwards (looking at the car) then the manifold will be up against the bulkhead and the pipe will have to travel under the engine to get out. For a nasp engine, you can get away with this but with LOTS of heat shielding (it's not just about cooking the driver, it's about safety). It's not sensible to have a sodding great turbo sitting there, given how hot turbos get. Plus all the plumbing - this would require you to shift the engine further back to accommodate the heat shielding and pipes, compromising the weight distribution and handling.
So if you want turbos, you need an engine with the exhaust manifold on the 'back' of the block. Still, packaging all of that whilst retaining good flow and not having to throw away the boot (heat management a problem even then, as a hot turbo too close to the boot could melt the plastic) is a challenge.
The existing engines fulfil these criteria. The VX220 turbo engine worked, and the Audi one does too. There are options, nobody is going to choose a different engine just for the hell of it when existing kits do the job very well.
The only question you ask that is really worth investigating is the rotary engine option - now that *would* be interesting but IIRC all of the Mazda rotaries are longitudinally mounted and getting a gearbox for transverse mounting would be a BIG problem. Mounting it longitudinally in the back of an Elise may be possible but it's a full-on engineering R&D job.
That's the reason the SR20DET wouldn't be a goer. Also any of the 5-pot engines would be too long.
Basically the Lotus chassis needs a compact inline 4. You also have to choose based on which side the exhaust comes out - if the exhaust goes forwards (looking at the car) then the manifold will be up against the bulkhead and the pipe will have to travel under the engine to get out. For a nasp engine, you can get away with this but with LOTS of heat shielding (it's not just about cooking the driver, it's about safety). It's not sensible to have a sodding great turbo sitting there, given how hot turbos get. Plus all the plumbing - this would require you to shift the engine further back to accommodate the heat shielding and pipes, compromising the weight distribution and handling.
So if you want turbos, you need an engine with the exhaust manifold on the 'back' of the block. Still, packaging all of that whilst retaining good flow and not having to throw away the boot (heat management a problem even then, as a hot turbo too close to the boot could melt the plastic) is a challenge.
The existing engines fulfil these criteria. The VX220 turbo engine worked, and the Audi one does too. There are options, nobody is going to choose a different engine just for the hell of it when existing kits do the job very well.
The only question you ask that is really worth investigating is the rotary engine option - now that *would* be interesting but IIRC all of the Mazda rotaries are longitudinally mounted and getting a gearbox for transverse mounting would be a BIG problem. Mounting it longitudinally in the back of an Elise may be possible but it's a full-on engineering R&D job.
Well, THAT is a useful reply, thank you.
The rotary engines are beautyful pieces of metal, but the transmission will be a problem. Someone here mentioned the usage of a rotary in the elise/exige. I'm wondering if anyone has a link? A rotary powered elise would be
EDIT: Scuffers, you might want to say why, instead of ranting, people might learn something, since you seem to know it all.
The rotary engines are beautyful pieces of metal, but the transmission will be a problem. Someone here mentioned the usage of a rotary in the elise/exige. I'm wondering if anyone has a link? A rotary powered elise would be
EDIT: Scuffers, you might want to say why, instead of ranting, people might learn something, since you seem to know it all.
cyberface said:
Engines originally intended to be mounted longitudinally wouldn't work in an Elise because the original platform was to use a *small* FWD shopping hatch engine. Remember that the K-series was originally a Metro engine, it was very light weight, 1.4 litre capacity. It was stretched to 1.8 but the actual block and ancillaries are a *small* package. The car was designed around that.
That's the reason the SR20DET wouldn't be a goer. Also any of the 5-pot engines would be too long.
Basically the Lotus chassis needs a compact inline 4. You also have to choose based on which side the exhaust comes out - if the exhaust goes forwards (looking at the car) then the manifold will be up against the bulkhead and the pipe will have to travel under the engine to get out. For a nasp engine, you can get away with this but with LOTS of heat shielding (it's not just about cooking the driver, it's about safety). It's not sensible to have a sodding great turbo sitting there, given how hot turbos get. Plus all the plumbing - this would require you to shift the engine further back to accommodate the heat shielding and pipes, compromising the weight distribution and handling.
So if you want turbos, you need an engine with the exhaust manifold on the 'back' of the block. Still, packaging all of that whilst retaining good flow and not having to throw away the boot (heat management a problem even then, as a hot turbo too close to the boot could melt the plastic) is a challenge.
The existing engines fulfil these criteria. The VX220 turbo engine worked, and the Audi one does too. There are options, nobody is going to choose a different engine just for the hell of it when existing kits do the job very well.
The only question you ask that is really worth investigating is the rotary engine option - now that *would* be interesting but IIRC all of the Mazda rotaries are longitudinally mounted and getting a gearbox for transverse mounting would be a BIG problem. Mounting it longitudinally in the back of an Elise may be possible but it's a full-on engineering R&D job.
That's the reason the SR20DET wouldn't be a goer. Also any of the 5-pot engines would be too long.
Basically the Lotus chassis needs a compact inline 4. You also have to choose based on which side the exhaust comes out - if the exhaust goes forwards (looking at the car) then the manifold will be up against the bulkhead and the pipe will have to travel under the engine to get out. For a nasp engine, you can get away with this but with LOTS of heat shielding (it's not just about cooking the driver, it's about safety). It's not sensible to have a sodding great turbo sitting there, given how hot turbos get. Plus all the plumbing - this would require you to shift the engine further back to accommodate the heat shielding and pipes, compromising the weight distribution and handling.
So if you want turbos, you need an engine with the exhaust manifold on the 'back' of the block. Still, packaging all of that whilst retaining good flow and not having to throw away the boot (heat management a problem even then, as a hot turbo too close to the boot could melt the plastic) is a challenge.
The existing engines fulfil these criteria. The VX220 turbo engine worked, and the Audi one does too. There are options, nobody is going to choose a different engine just for the hell of it when existing kits do the job very well.
The only question you ask that is really worth investigating is the rotary engine option - now that *would* be interesting but IIRC all of the Mazda rotaries are longitudinally mounted and getting a gearbox for transverse mounting would be a BIG problem. Mounting it longitudinally in the back of an Elise may be possible but it's a full-on engineering R&D job.
Edited by Terror Factor on Thursday 4th February 21:38
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