Post rebuild engines
Discussion
Please don't view this thread as a criticism of the Speed6 - it is not. This is for information purposes for prospective owners, myself included.
Can it be said that engines that have had a rebuild are much more reliable? Would it still be wise to make a provision for a further future rebuild, or should the problems be cured? (obviously budget for things that will go wrong - my Chimaera is proof of that!)
The latest TVRs are great cars and second hand prices make them very attractive. Having to budget for another rebuild will ultimately determine whether or not to purchase a newer car.
Can it be said that engines that have had a rebuild are much more reliable? Would it still be wise to make a provision for a further future rebuild, or should the problems be cured? (obviously budget for things that will go wrong - my Chimaera is proof of that!)
The latest TVRs are great cars and second hand prices make them very attractive. Having to budget for another rebuild will ultimately determine whether or not to purchase a newer car.
It kind of depends on your view on the SP6 problems.
If you believe that a like for like rebuild (albeit with improved quality components) will solve the engineering issues then you'll have peace of mind.
If you believe that the engineering issues are more fundamental, then nothing less than an Autocraft/Melling redesign will give you peace of mind.
I'm in the latter camp. It's an expensive camp to be in, but not in the long term IMO.
As with any decision it's a gamble. Read all there is to read here - fact, opinion, hearsay,educated guessing, posturing, etc - sift through it all and make your own mind up. Good luck, there's no better to car to look at or drive IMO.
Al.
If you believe that a like for like rebuild (albeit with improved quality components) will solve the engineering issues then you'll have peace of mind.
If you believe that the engineering issues are more fundamental, then nothing less than an Autocraft/Melling redesign will give you peace of mind.
I'm in the latter camp. It's an expensive camp to be in, but not in the long term IMO.
As with any decision it's a gamble. Read all there is to read here - fact, opinion, hearsay,educated guessing, posturing, etc - sift through it all and make your own mind up. Good luck, there's no better to car to look at or drive IMO.
Al.
For what its worth my view is it depends on the age of the car - 2000-2001 before any TVR mods to the engine then Autocraft would give me peace of mind. Post 2003/4 and if problems are experienced then you have greater choice. If you are buying around the £20k mark you need to put aside a contingency in any case-there is no such thing as cheap high performance.
gazzab said:
autocraft is a great option but it isnt proven yet. Dont matter how great a design is or how well it is built it will still need to be tested.
As has been stated and concurred with many times over on several other threads
sideways mostly said:
.....there is no such thing as cheap high performance.
JT
>> Edited by J.T. on Friday 6th January 17:39
J.T. said:
autocraft is a great option but it isnt proven yet. Dont matter how great a design is or how well it is built it will still need to be tested.
As has been stated and concurred with many times over on several other threads
Good point.
What we should do is never comment on anything in case it has been said before even if someone is new or asking a newish question.
I give you two roll eyes.Which options would you consider to have be proven?
The original SP6 design?
The factory rebuilds?
The TVR Power rebuilds?
The latter post 2003 SP6 cars?
Or any other that I may have missed?
Most of the above which preceed the Autocraft redesign have been "road tested" by SP6 owners. None has been proven to be 100% reliable or even close.
Obviously I'm putting my mouth where my money is here, but there seemed to me a logic with the Autocraft solution that came out of the learnings of the
failures of all or some of the above, together with input from the engines designer. In my opinion it's as proven as any other route, because none has yet
proved to be close to 100% reliable. No rolling eyes here, just crossed fingers.
The original SP6 design?
The factory rebuilds?
The TVR Power rebuilds?
The latter post 2003 SP6 cars?
Or any other that I may have missed?
Most of the above which preceed the Autocraft redesign have been "road tested" by SP6 owners. None has been proven to be 100% reliable or even close.
Obviously I'm putting my mouth where my money is here, but there seemed to me a logic with the Autocraft solution that came out of the learnings of the
failures of all or some of the above, together with input from the engines designer. In my opinion it's as proven as any other route, because none has yet
proved to be close to 100% reliable. No rolling eyes here, just crossed fingers.
Sorry mate but you lost me on this point
On another thread on this forum unrepentant has noted that out of the people who have voted on Pistonheads using the 'thumbs' method 503 speed six owners are happy with their cars 26 are unhappy.
Doesn't diminish the pain and frustration for those with problems but it would appear the problem cars are around 5%-not the majority.
There are 87 people who have not voted so this may change a bit but I cant imagine 87 PH'rs are sitting out there with problem cars and not posting.
>> Edited by sideways mostly on Saturday 7th January 11:39
>> Edited by sideways mostly on Saturday 7th January 11:41
TUSC-AL said:
None has been proven to be 100% reliable or even close.
.
On another thread on this forum unrepentant has noted that out of the people who have voted on Pistonheads using the 'thumbs' method 503 speed six owners are happy with their cars 26 are unhappy.
Doesn't diminish the pain and frustration for those with problems but it would appear the problem cars are around 5%-not the majority.
There are 87 people who have not voted so this may change a bit but I cant imagine 87 PH'rs are sitting out there with problem cars and not posting.
>> Edited by sideways mostly on Saturday 7th January 11:39
>> Edited by sideways mostly on Saturday 7th January 11:41
sideways mostly said:
There are 87 people who have not voted so this may change a bit but I cant imagine 87 PH'rs are sitting out there with problem cars and not posting.
And that's the thing, isn't it? A LOT of owners do not show their faces or write on these forums UNTIL/UNLESS they have a problem, thus making it SEEM as though the 'problem' is a lot worse than it actually is.
I think we're all entitled to have a moan, now and again, I have in the past regarding the apparent blanket minimum charge of £5K if you even suspect your engine of stuttering. I guess there will always be, however, people stirring things up just for the hell of, stating as fact the S6 is a 'dog of an engine', when, as an owner with 2 years living with one, know that not to be true (at least, in a blanket statement case!) It would be like me going onto the Ferrari forum and blindly stating their engine is crap, because someone has a prob, I would expect to be shot down in flames for that statement, but only on this forum, with this engine, derogatory remarks about an engine that has been nothing less than superb for me seem to be acceptable!
I know it’s a public forum, and I know all sorts post, some who have a vested interest in engines going pop, so they can earn money, some who post for no other reason but to get a rise out of the genuine owners, and some who have had probs, and genuinely would like unbiased help and advice, it is the latter that suffer the most, I think. But, this is just from my own perspective, so I could be wrong, but it is the way I see it. I feel most sorry for the genuine S6 owners/potential S6 owners who are looking for genuine help, all they get is a barrage of negative crap most of the time, usually from people who know nothing at all about the marque!
>> Edited by chris watton on Saturday 7th January 11:56
Speaking with a few dealers/ex-dealers recently on another subject, i asked about the speed 6 sales, and a large majority of the customers are NOT pistonheaders it seems.... so a poll of yes and no on here is immaterial outside of this forum.... 
But generally speaking I would say less than 10% exhibit problems early, 20% around the 20-30k mark, and then above that I guess is acceptable as the engine is supposedly a race engine.... but the percentage of those who dont warm up their cars properly or keep an eye on the oil level/pressure/temp etc and then those that rev into the 7k+ region of the tach very very often could/will be more likely to end up with failures, used-car owners/buyers (regardless if purchased from dealer or private) I suppose are at greater risk because they have no idea how the car was driven/cared for, bar the servicing book, but that means jack with an engine like this....
I for one have witnessed an ex-tuscan owner rip his car out mad just one day before it switched hands just to see what she could do.... (I was in the passenger seat!) scary stuff....
Ok the above doesnt help those who are selling theirs on, but obviously not ALL owners have no mechanical-sympathy.... the engine is a sensitive piece of equipment in any car, but its generally accepted ALL tvr engines are extremely sensitive, these are handbuilt afterall (an excuse used more than once, but it does hold water, had held water for 5 decades).... so a bit of elbow grease is in order to keep your P&J running, but again there are NO independant tests to PROVE the engine is a failure or not, the factory denies it, the rebuilders denounce their fixes are worthless... its just one big can of worms
Thats why this forum attracts so many, when a can of worms opens, every bird in the sky flocks to pick the shite out of the can... 
End of the day, its up to the owner to decide what they believe in
But a well respected authority with a clean slate is normally a good direction....
But generally speaking I would say less than 10% exhibit problems early, 20% around the 20-30k mark, and then above that I guess is acceptable as the engine is supposedly a race engine.... but the percentage of those who dont warm up their cars properly or keep an eye on the oil level/pressure/temp etc and then those that rev into the 7k+ region of the tach very very often could/will be more likely to end up with failures, used-car owners/buyers (regardless if purchased from dealer or private) I suppose are at greater risk because they have no idea how the car was driven/cared for, bar the servicing book, but that means jack with an engine like this.... I for one have witnessed an ex-tuscan owner rip his car out mad just one day before it switched hands just to see what she could do.... (I was in the passenger seat!) scary stuff....
Ok the above doesnt help those who are selling theirs on, but obviously not ALL owners have no mechanical-sympathy.... the engine is a sensitive piece of equipment in any car, but its generally accepted ALL tvr engines are extremely sensitive, these are handbuilt afterall (an excuse used more than once, but it does hold water, had held water for 5 decades).... so a bit of elbow grease is in order to keep your P&J running, but again there are NO independant tests to PROVE the engine is a failure or not, the factory denies it, the rebuilders denounce their fixes are worthless... its just one big can of worms
Thats why this forum attracts so many, when a can of worms opens, every bird in the sky flocks to pick the shite out of the can... End of the day, its up to the owner to decide what they believe in
But a well respected authority with a clean slate is normally a good direction....
[quote=chris wattonI feel most sorry for the genuine S6 owners/potential S6 owners who are looking for genuine help, all they get is a barrage of negative crap most of the time, usually from people who know nothing at all about the marque!
>> Edited by chris watton on Saturday 7th January 11:56[/quote]
Yup,I agree with that entirely.
I would like to add that it can not help but influences people who may be considering the marque and pop on hear to find out what its like to own and run a TVR from real users. A problem level of 5% restricted largely to earlier cars looks to me to be closer to the truth than the impression I get from this site that by far the majority of Speed Six owners have experienced problems.
Its time for the bollox to stop
>> Edited by chris watton on Saturday 7th January 11:56[/quote]
Yup,I agree with that entirely.
I would like to add that it can not help but influences people who may be considering the marque and pop on hear to find out what its like to own and run a TVR from real users. A problem level of 5% restricted largely to earlier cars looks to me to be closer to the truth than the impression I get from this site that by far the majority of Speed Six owners have experienced problems.
Its time for the bollox to stop
[quote=sideways mostly]Sorry mate but you lost me on this point
[quote=TUSC-AL] None has been proven to be 100% reliable or even close.
I guess what I meant was, if you're unfortunate enough to have problems with the SP6 engine,
there is yet to be proved a reliable fix. I've read of rebuilds giving way within 6000 miles!!
My educated guess was to go with Autocraft and a redesign.
Don't get me wrong - I own a SP6 - I love the SP6 - I just want to make MINE as reliable as possible.
I bought a used TVR in a private sale. I bought it knowing the potential risks to a "small" percentage of the SP6 engines, particularly an early car like mine.
The engine turned out to have significant wear after 33k (no rebuild), so in effect I'm opting to upgrade the engine with superior components
to ensure it keeps giving me the driving pleasure it always has.
I'm certainly not part of SP6 Depreciation Society!
[quote=TUSC-AL] None has been proven to be 100% reliable or even close.
I guess what I meant was, if you're unfortunate enough to have problems with the SP6 engine,
there is yet to be proved a reliable fix. I've read of rebuilds giving way within 6000 miles!!
My educated guess was to go with Autocraft and a redesign.
Don't get me wrong - I own a SP6 - I love the SP6 - I just want to make MINE as reliable as possible.
I bought a used TVR in a private sale. I bought it knowing the potential risks to a "small" percentage of the SP6 engines, particularly an early car like mine.
The engine turned out to have significant wear after 33k (no rebuild), so in effect I'm opting to upgrade the engine with superior components
to ensure it keeps giving me the driving pleasure it always has.
I'm certainly not part of SP6 Depreciation Society!
SXS said:
Speaking with a few dealers/ex-dealers recently on another subject, i asked about the speed 6 sales, and a large majority of the customers are NOT pistonheaders it seems.... so a poll of yes and no on here is immaterial outside of this forum....
Err........... rubbish.
Over 600 Tus, Tam and T350 owners have registered their cars on here out of 3,000 ? sold. An opinion poll prior to a general election usually polls 1000 out of 25 million ? eligible voters. So I would say our sample is huge and representative.
As far as PH is concerned if a "large majority" of TVR customers were not PHers I doubt that just about all the dealers would advertise here. (And the above figures in any event give tell their own story).
zumbruk said:
I would say our sample is ... representative.
Rubbish. You've obviously never heard the term "self selected", and know nothing whatsoever about polling.
Eh?
I haven't selected anyone. This is a poll of SP6 owners on Pistonheads, all of them.
You're a typical naysayer mate who dismisses anything that disagrees with your own jaundiced position. You never miss an opportunity to have a pop at the S6 and here's another chance for you.
unrepentant said:
I would say our sample is ... representative.
Rubbish. You've obviously never heard the term "self selected", and know nothing whatsoever about polling.
Eh?
I haven't selected anyone. This is a poll of SP6 owners on Pistonheads, all of them.
You're a typical naysayer mate who dismisses anything that disagrees with your own jaundiced position. You never miss an opportunity to have a pop at the S6 and here's another chance for you.
I think unrep's survey is good. However we do need to take into account any factors which may affect this result compared to the 'official figures'. These would be a survey of every owner.
The survey counts the 'thumbs up' and 'thumbs down' marks on each owners cars. To be frank, I for one dont even know which is on mine, and for that reason I dont think it is representative of what I think now.
The subject of polling is relevant, as it could be said that the survey would be slightly akin to standing outside the Liberal Democrat office and asking people to give a thumbs up if you like the LibDems. This will not be an accurate representation of general opinion. More importantly it does not prove who the people surveyed may vote for.
The simile with this scenario is that although people may have put a thumbs up or down, it may not represent their current opinion, and does not indicate things like general reliability. For example, if I had an 18 month old Tusc with a 3 year warranty, and in needed a rebuild and was sorted I would have a thumbs up. If I had a one year warranty, I bloody well wouldnt!
Thus we have to remember that the survey is accurate but we have to be careful in analysing what it 'means'. If it is worth anthying, I would welcome a more detailed survey with specific questions, that way the results could be presented in an exact way.
gazzab said:
autocraft is a great option but it isnt proven yet. Dont matter how great a design is or how well it is built it will still need to be tested.
As has been stated and concurred with many times over on several other threads
Good point.
What we should do is never comment on anything in case it has been said before even if someone is new or asking a newish question.
I'll see your 2 roll eyes and raise you 2
:rolloeyes: Wasn't having a go gazzab, just didn't want folk to assume that this wasn't already a given that the chaps at TVR Craft buy into.
For info, took Cerb back to Craft today for it's post run-in oil change, tappet check etc. After almost 1000 miles, engine running v sweetly and using zero oil. Will update when she's been rolling roaded and has a few more miles on the clock.
JT
unrepentant said:
Speaking with a few dealers/ex-dealers recently on another subject, i asked about the speed 6 sales, and a large majority of the customers are NOT pistonheaders it seems.... so a poll of yes and no on here is immaterial outside of this forum....
Err........... rubbish.
Over 600 Tus, Tam and T350 owners have registered their cars on here out of 3,000 ? sold. An opinion poll prior to a general election usually polls 1000 out of 25 million ? eligible voters. So I would say our sample is huge and representative.
As far as PH is concerned if a "large majority" of TVR customers were not PHers I doubt that just about all the dealers would advertise here. (And the above figures in any event give tell their own story).
How can that be rubbish? You said it yourself, over 600 owners on here....
Unrep - RE-READ MY POST PLEASE before jumping up and down, I said THE MAJORITY OF DEALERS CUSTOMERS are not pistonheaders... and that is FACT!
And your numbers are also contradicting what you just said... around 600 in here and 3000 overall is still the majority are OUTSIDE PH! Pistonheads plays a sizeable part in various aspects of TVR services, it is afterall the BIGGEST online motoring site in the country as far as userbase is concerned, but I'm afraid NOT ALL of them buy used TVRs let alone new ones!
Also... you are INCLUDING a HUGE number of used-car owners... most of the NEW CAR buyers pretty much pick their car up, throw a few miles on her and then sell it either back to the dealer or whatever at a loss.... and those new owners dont even know of pistonheads... the used car industry does very well with TVR cars as a product base, and the handful who have become independant prove that all too well.
So for you to think that the MAJORITY of new car owners browse these forums before buying or are members here... you're talking absolute rubbish!
For people to assume Pistonheads is the MAIN source for TVR factory sales, thats just plain and simply misinformed ludicrous nonsense....
Gassing Station | Speed Six Engine | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff