Driving commercially? - take an advanced driving test
Discussion
Sparked by a week of riding a motorbike into the city/driving around the suburbs constantly frustrated at the level of incompetence shown by "professional" drivers surely it's time to do something, in just the last week I've experienced:
- PCO Prius driving along a main road at 12 mph, yes really, completely oblivious to the queue of traffic behind them. Even then they'll rarely exceed 24mph (with no ability for it to be constant either) through fear of their hybrid system kicking them to petrol. Big issue when 1/3 cars seems to be private hire at some times of day
- Pulling into the side of the road, or doing a U-turn, without any consideration of lane markings or other traffic forced to take emergency evasive action
- Sitting at the front of a traffic light queue, failing to notice the green light and still not moving off despite 5 seconds of constant horns form all drivers behind
- At temporary traffic lights with parked cars on the approach leaving space for 2 cars at the front before a c100m "tunnel" of parked cars reducing the road width to a single car. Brainbox passes the queue of cars waiting behind the tunnel and stops at the end, stopping any cars turning into the road from going anywhere and blocking the entire intersection.
- delivery scooter riders that, despite being overtaken, get to the red lights and go to the front of the cyclist box, directly in front of you (also on a motorbike) before wobbling away, rinse and repeat at every junction
Given this (and may more examples over recent weeks, not just the last few days) is it time that PCO/delivery drivers are made to pass an advanced driving test before being able to use a vehicle for hire and reward? Admittedly it's a point in time and they'll likely revert to the current norm but it's got to help surely!
- PCO Prius driving along a main road at 12 mph, yes really, completely oblivious to the queue of traffic behind them. Even then they'll rarely exceed 24mph (with no ability for it to be constant either) through fear of their hybrid system kicking them to petrol. Big issue when 1/3 cars seems to be private hire at some times of day
- Pulling into the side of the road, or doing a U-turn, without any consideration of lane markings or other traffic forced to take emergency evasive action
- Sitting at the front of a traffic light queue, failing to notice the green light and still not moving off despite 5 seconds of constant horns form all drivers behind
- At temporary traffic lights with parked cars on the approach leaving space for 2 cars at the front before a c100m "tunnel" of parked cars reducing the road width to a single car. Brainbox passes the queue of cars waiting behind the tunnel and stops at the end, stopping any cars turning into the road from going anywhere and blocking the entire intersection.
- delivery scooter riders that, despite being overtaken, get to the red lights and go to the front of the cyclist box, directly in front of you (also on a motorbike) before wobbling away, rinse and repeat at every junction
Given this (and may more examples over recent weeks, not just the last few days) is it time that PCO/delivery drivers are made to pass an advanced driving test before being able to use a vehicle for hire and reward? Admittedly it's a point in time and they'll likely revert to the current norm but it's got to help surely!
kiethton said:
- delivery scooter riders that, despite being overtaken, get to the red lights and go to the front of the cyclist box, directly in front of you (also on a motorbike) before wobbling away, rinse and repeat at every junction
The use of a CBT & L Plates for delivery purposes is by far and away the most baffling - A full license should be the minimum for any form of paid riding.I can't imagine that any of those scooter guys have hire and reward insurance let alone actual insurance or indeed licences.
Hire and reward insurance was eye watering when I was a dispatch rider, van courier and minicab driver back in the 80s so how anyone could afford it these days.
As a rider myself I find that those idiots pose the biggest risk to me.
Oblivious, always riding an inch from my back wheel where I can't see them, fiddling with their phones at traffic lights, grrrrrrr!
Really feks me off.
In the olden days it was Volvos that you had to avoid.
Now almost all hybrids are driven by t
ts, well in London anyway.
Hire and reward insurance was eye watering when I was a dispatch rider, van courier and minicab driver back in the 80s so how anyone could afford it these days.
As a rider myself I find that those idiots pose the biggest risk to me.
Oblivious, always riding an inch from my back wheel where I can't see them, fiddling with their phones at traffic lights, grrrrrrr!
Really feks me off.
In the olden days it was Volvos that you had to avoid.
Now almost all hybrids are driven by t
ts, well in London anyway.Indeed, I think the PCO drivers (due to the damage they can cause relative to a moped) should have far higher standards but both are appalling. The main bit is just the complete lack of common sense, ability to read the road, know the meaning road laws/markings/signs or operate a car!
Beyond setting up a random, daily checkpoint (or holding all mopeds at a McDonald's/other as checks are done) how does it get enforced beyond the rare one which works?
Beyond setting up a random, daily checkpoint (or holding all mopeds at a McDonald's/other as checks are done) how does it get enforced beyond the rare one which works?
Haltamer said:
kiethton said:
- delivery scooter riders that, despite being overtaken, get to the red lights and go to the front of the cyclist box, directly in front of you (also on a motorbike) before wobbling away, rinse and repeat at every junction
The use of a CBT & L Plates for delivery purposes is by far and away the most baffling - A full license should be the minimum for any form of paid riding.Urban taxi drivers are the worst for this in my experience - it's as if signage is a challenge to be overcome rather than sensible rules to make the roads safer for everyone.
On the subject of delivery riders, it's a real loophole that they can operate for business purposes without a full licence, and likely not with the correct insurance. L-plate riders are subject to various restrictions (no motorways, no pillions etc) - surely "no riding otherwise than domestic and pleasure" would be a fairly straightforward and sensible clause. Otherwise we have a fleet of almost completely untrained riders putting themselves and others at risk.
Haltamer said:
kiethton said:
- delivery scooter riders that, despite being overtaken, get to the red lights and go to the front of the cyclist box, directly in front of you (also on a motorbike) before wobbling away, rinse and repeat at every junction
The use of a CBT & L Plates for delivery purposes is by far and away the most baffling - A full license should be the minimum for any form of paid riding.A full car license seems enough to ride about on a moped tbh, and I'm pretty sure they just leave the L plates on so maybe many of them do in fact have proper bike licenses.
In theory I would love to force car drivers to drive an HGV, a van, and a motorbike at some point in their driving career - you learn an enormous amount - but I don't think there's a practical way to do this.
In theory I would love to force car drivers to drive an HGV, a van, and a motorbike at some point in their driving career - you learn an enormous amount - but I don't think there's a practical way to do this.
kiethton said:
Somewhatfoolish said:
A full car license seems enough to ride about on a moped tbh, and I'm pretty sure they just leave the L plates on so maybe many of them do in fact have proper bike licenses.
If you are in London what you see, so regularly, would make you doubt that very quicklySomewhatfoolish said:
A full car license seems enough to ride about on a moped tbh, and I'm pretty sure they just leave the L plates on so maybe many of them do in fact have proper bike licenses.
You need to have passed your car test before 1st February 2001, to be able to ride a moped on a car licence. I think most of the delivery riders are well under 40, so the L plates are real and most are serial CBT takers (every 2 years).The standard to pass CBT is massively below that of a full bike licence. I find it odd they are allowed to earn a living (I really wouldn't use the term professional) on a bike without passing a proper full test (as Haltamer says).
OverSteery said:
Somewhatfoolish said:
A full car license seems enough to ride about on a moped tbh, and I'm pretty sure they just leave the L plates on so maybe many of them do in fact have proper bike licenses.
You need to have passed your car test before 1st February 2001, to be able to ride a moped on a car licence. I think most of the delivery riders are well under 40, so the L plates are real and most are serial CBT takers (every 2 years).The standard to pass CBT is massively below that of a full bike licence. I find it odd they are allowed to earn a living (I really wouldn't use the term professional) on a bike without passing a proper full test (as Haltamer says).
Either way a CBT or a full car licences is perfectly adequete as a minimal standard in the context of our current test framework. I appreciate this is the advanced driving subforum and we advocate driving/riding properly but we're living in a world where the most famous youtube driving instructor hasn't heard of an IAM observer and even a full test isn't going to teach you to anticipate or filter or position properly etc (which is surely the most important stuff about riding a moped) and there isn't that much more to it than riding a cycle at not dissimilar speeds for which you don't need a licence at all.
Edited by Somewhatfoolish on Tuesday 16th August 20:41
Somewhatfoolish said:
Either way a CBT or a full car licences is perfectly adequete as a minimal standard in the context of our current test framework.
All a CBT means is you can operate the basic controls of the machine. Obviously it covers very little else of one's ability or knowledge. As a stepping stone to a bike licence it sort of makes sense - you've got to start somewhere - but it's clearly not designed for allowing large fleets of riders to operate commercially. I doubt very much that they are properly insured. Nobody has checked if they have even the most basic understanding of the rules of the road.Another way around this would be to have a 1-year break on expiry of the CBT before applying for a new one. I'm not quite sure why the 2-year expiry exists when it's a simple £100 day and you're back up and running again.
Somewhatfoolish said:
I'm pretty sure you can ride a moped with L plates without a CBT if you have a full car licence? I passed my car test in 2004 and bike test in 2006 iirc, but reasonably sure I did the 2005 CBT just so I could ride mopeds without L plates and then decided I really rather enjoyed two wheels. It is possible my memory is rather hazy of course.
You can ride a 50cc scooter limited to 50kph, but nothing bigger or fasterThe Mayor of London seems to agree that CBT is unfit for purpose of delivery riding. Here’s his recent response to the question.
https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2022/0286
https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2022/0286
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