Using advanced techniques on the road?
Discussion
Hey everyone! (Not to start my PH career by kicking a hornets’ nest, or anything, but…) What’re your thoughts about heel-and-toeing — and/or left-foot braking, trailing the brakes, and so on — on the road?
Personally, I’ve been surprised by the number of people who react with horror. Even when I’m not giving it anywhere near full send, there’s something deeply pleasing about knowing that a buttery downshift took a bit of work. And, when I am…
Well, I’m lucky to have plenty of well-sighted, yumpy roads on my doorstep. Especially in a hot hatch, left-foot braking into a corner just feels logical. It doesn’t matter how close you are to the limit: it’s always more fun than guiding it in on the throttle. And the way you can feel the front tyres gnawing at the blacktop, the car pivoting around its length, as if you’ve hammered a tent peg into the shifter… This is about as close as you can get to Pure Car, for my money, and it seems a shame to exclude oneself from it.
(Or, very possibly, I’m just way too young, and really quite dim, and haven’t yet calibrated my risk tolerance for public roads…
)
Personally, I’ve been surprised by the number of people who react with horror. Even when I’m not giving it anywhere near full send, there’s something deeply pleasing about knowing that a buttery downshift took a bit of work. And, when I am…
Well, I’m lucky to have plenty of well-sighted, yumpy roads on my doorstep. Especially in a hot hatch, left-foot braking into a corner just feels logical. It doesn’t matter how close you are to the limit: it’s always more fun than guiding it in on the throttle. And the way you can feel the front tyres gnawing at the blacktop, the car pivoting around its length, as if you’ve hammered a tent peg into the shifter… This is about as close as you can get to Pure Car, for my money, and it seems a shame to exclude oneself from it.
(Or, very possibly, I’m just way too young, and really quite dim, and haven’t yet calibrated my risk tolerance for public roads…
)I refer you to Reg Local of this parish - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sZuKWKHnXY
A pretty complex question.
Important first comment. When you start to use either of these techniques, LFB or H & T, for quite a while you have to think what your feet are doing, which takes up parts of your brain which are otherwise available for driving safely and well. So expect to have a significant learning period before muscle memory takes over, and during the learning period consciously drive further inside your own limits than you normally would.
You may discover these techniques have become instinctive (LFB) when you have to brake hard unexpectedly and you use your left foot or (H & T) when a bend tightens on you, and you instinctively H & T into a lower gear without thinking about your feet.
Neither of these techniques are remotely sanctioned let alone recommended by the major 'Advanced Driving' organisations. That said, I consider that both techniques work well in contributing to a smooth safe road drive. Personally, I use LFB in a two pedal car, and consider that a particular benefit is being able to have the left foot hovering over the brake pedal as you enter a hazard zone - meaning that if brakes are needed they are available up to a second earlier than if you have to move your right foot off the throttle and onto the brake pedal. I don't overlap brakes and throttle in the way I seem to remember Reg does in that video - in spite of the fact that at the time like him I had an M2C and that I like the smooth but quicker transition from brakes to throttle which it makes possible. Also, I don't use LFB in a three pedal car - since you need to be able to transition to right foot braking if a gear change is needed, it is more difficult to do and much more difficult to learn.
So far as H & T is concerned, for me the only point of having a manual car in these days when flappy paddle boxes are so good is to enjoy making accurately rev matched gear changes. If you want to make a rev matched gearchange without using H & T you cannot change gear while braking - so you have to finish braking earlier before a hazard and then change gear, which reduces the flow of a swift drive. And that is what I am having to do at the moment, as I recover from a broken ankle and am unable to use H & T (actually, I am mostly avoiding driving a manual car).
Important first comment. When you start to use either of these techniques, LFB or H & T, for quite a while you have to think what your feet are doing, which takes up parts of your brain which are otherwise available for driving safely and well. So expect to have a significant learning period before muscle memory takes over, and during the learning period consciously drive further inside your own limits than you normally would.
You may discover these techniques have become instinctive (LFB) when you have to brake hard unexpectedly and you use your left foot or (H & T) when a bend tightens on you, and you instinctively H & T into a lower gear without thinking about your feet.
Neither of these techniques are remotely sanctioned let alone recommended by the major 'Advanced Driving' organisations. That said, I consider that both techniques work well in contributing to a smooth safe road drive. Personally, I use LFB in a two pedal car, and consider that a particular benefit is being able to have the left foot hovering over the brake pedal as you enter a hazard zone - meaning that if brakes are needed they are available up to a second earlier than if you have to move your right foot off the throttle and onto the brake pedal. I don't overlap brakes and throttle in the way I seem to remember Reg does in that video - in spite of the fact that at the time like him I had an M2C and that I like the smooth but quicker transition from brakes to throttle which it makes possible. Also, I don't use LFB in a three pedal car - since you need to be able to transition to right foot braking if a gear change is needed, it is more difficult to do and much more difficult to learn.
So far as H & T is concerned, for me the only point of having a manual car in these days when flappy paddle boxes are so good is to enjoy making accurately rev matched gear changes. If you want to make a rev matched gearchange without using H & T you cannot change gear while braking - so you have to finish braking earlier before a hazard and then change gear, which reduces the flow of a swift drive. And that is what I am having to do at the moment, as I recover from a broken ankle and am unable to use H & T (actually, I am mostly avoiding driving a manual car).
Reads like track driving to the limits of adhesion on the public road, something i suggest that will not necessarily end up in carnage but sooner or later the police will either see you themselves or more likely someone will have it on their dashcam and send the footage in, i wouldn't and probably most here wouldn't either but don't underestimate the curtain twitching grass.
Personally i've never heeled/toed, maybe my knees and ankles were never flexible enough but quite honestly never wanted to or found the need for it, similarly the only times i've used LFB has been during extreme maneuvers loading car transporters when precise positioning at awkward angles especially if the car in question has been fitted with one of the single or dual clutch semi auto gearboxes from hell.
In trucks they make it almost impossible to LFB due to the steering column unless you are tiny, and i still wouldn't because muscle memory in the left leg isn't honed from decades of practice, possibly if you LFB in a 2 pedal car from day 1 you would be fine but not for me, probably get away with it thanks to all the anti skid electronics but in older cars brake lock up was on the cards and in modern stuff good luck to the bloke behind, if you harsh brake in front of trucks...well i wouldn't.
My advanced techniques if you can call them that are in artics because 95% of my driving miles have been in them, try not to use the vehicle service brakes except to bring the vehicle to a final halt but instead use auxilliary retarder (they vary) in combination with the appropriate gears (using manual override when needed on the auto box), trying as best to time junctions and roundabouts without having to come to a stop, in other words maintaining normal progress as my hgv instructor drilled into us back in '76....if more people practiced maintaining progress there wouldn't be half as much congestion.
This reflects how i drive cars too, as flowing as its possible to achieve on the roads today, not only is it a better way to drive any vehicle they last far longer without wear and breakage.
Personally i've never heeled/toed, maybe my knees and ankles were never flexible enough but quite honestly never wanted to or found the need for it, similarly the only times i've used LFB has been during extreme maneuvers loading car transporters when precise positioning at awkward angles especially if the car in question has been fitted with one of the single or dual clutch semi auto gearboxes from hell.
In trucks they make it almost impossible to LFB due to the steering column unless you are tiny, and i still wouldn't because muscle memory in the left leg isn't honed from decades of practice, possibly if you LFB in a 2 pedal car from day 1 you would be fine but not for me, probably get away with it thanks to all the anti skid electronics but in older cars brake lock up was on the cards and in modern stuff good luck to the bloke behind, if you harsh brake in front of trucks...well i wouldn't.
My advanced techniques if you can call them that are in artics because 95% of my driving miles have been in them, try not to use the vehicle service brakes except to bring the vehicle to a final halt but instead use auxilliary retarder (they vary) in combination with the appropriate gears (using manual override when needed on the auto box), trying as best to time junctions and roundabouts without having to come to a stop, in other words maintaining normal progress as my hgv instructor drilled into us back in '76....if more people practiced maintaining progress there wouldn't be half as much congestion.
This reflects how i drive cars too, as flowing as its possible to achieve on the roads today, not only is it a better way to drive any vehicle they last far longer without wear and breakage.
H&T downshifting, sure why not? The last car I owned which had pedals specifically set up for H&T was a lightly modified Porsche 996 Carrera. But most other road cars I’ve driven make H&T difficult with their default pedal layout.
LFB however I wouldn’t attempt on a public road. Save that for track days if you feel the need. While many pro race drivers LFB, there have been some notable exceptions. I worked with John Cleland in his BTCC days (I was a Race Engineer) and he never used LFB at all. Most of his peers did LFB, but it never appeared to be a significant advantage.
For me road driving is all about maintaining a safe margin to the limits and so LFB would be of zero advantage. H&T on the other hand can be fun and enhance your driving experience in the right car, with a good pedal setup. But it can also be a distraction if you are having to consciously think about it.
LFB however I wouldn’t attempt on a public road. Save that for track days if you feel the need. While many pro race drivers LFB, there have been some notable exceptions. I worked with John Cleland in his BTCC days (I was a Race Engineer) and he never used LFB at all. Most of his peers did LFB, but it never appeared to be a significant advantage.
For me road driving is all about maintaining a safe margin to the limits and so LFB would be of zero advantage. H&T on the other hand can be fun and enhance your driving experience in the right car, with a good pedal setup. But it can also be a distraction if you are having to consciously think about it.
The practical issue with left foot braking much of the time is how many drive by wire throttles kill input when the brake is applied.
I've found RenaultSport models are sensible enough to still allow it though.
Obviously fine on a lot of older stuff.
Whether it's a good idea on the road, I think much of the time, no, it really comes into play when driving in a way that isn't necessarily what's advisable on the road.
I think it's a good skill to learn for FWD cars, though.
I've found RenaultSport models are sensible enough to still allow it though.
Obviously fine on a lot of older stuff.
Whether it's a good idea on the road, I think much of the time, no, it really comes into play when driving in a way that isn't necessarily what's advisable on the road.
I think it's a good skill to learn for FWD cars, though.
waremark said:
A pretty complex question.
I strongly echo the note about these things taking time! Aside from the notorious ‘flinging yourself through the window the first time you LFB’, it took me a good 6 months to feel I had equal (if not greater) sensitivity in my left foot than my right. In fact, I had a situation this morning exactly as you mentioned… pitched it into a reasonably well-sighted bend at 45ish. As I rounded the corner (on a characteristically battered, bendy section of road) I saw a tractor pulling out ~100 yards down the road. Left foot hovering by the brake, I felt I could deal with this — as you say — almost without thinking about it. (Transitioning my right foot wouldn’t have been unsafe, of course: but I doubt I would’ve had the same feeling of rock-solid stability I get from LFB, where it feels like my margin for error is just a fraction higher.)
Oddly, I don’t think I ever struggled with transitioning from LF to RF H+T under heavy braking? (Though I suspect this might — bizarrely — be a bouldering thing: the action you use to ‘smear’ one foot to the other on a little hold is very similar to swapping from L to R while maintaining constant brake pressure…)
Sorry to hear about the broken ankle, mate! That’s rotten luck
waremark said:
................. If you want to make a rev matched gearchange without using H & T you cannot change gear while braking - so you have to finish braking earlier before a hazard and then change gear, which reduces the flow of a swift drive. And that is what I am having to do at the moment, as I recover from a broken ankle and am unable to use H & T (actually, I am mostly avoiding driving a manual car).
I've never found this an issue. After all you can engage the next gear while braking providing you get back on the power to declutch.I'm not sure it's right to call the listed techniques 'advanced' anyway. Track techniques perhaps, but calling them advanced is assuming they are useful on the road, which is precisely the point at issue.
Edited by Austin Prefect on Saturday 7th June 12:06
Austin Prefect said:
I've never found this an issue. After all you can engage the next gear while braking providing you get back on the power to declutch.
I'm not sure it's right to call the listed techniques 'advanced' anyway. Track techniques perhaps, but calling them advanced is assuming they are useful on the road, which is precisely the point at issue.
So you are approaching a downhill hairpin. I use H & T to change down to second gear while still firmly on the brakes and am ready to accelerate when the road levels out. How do you deal with this equally tidily without H & T?I'm not sure it's right to call the listed techniques 'advanced' anyway. Track techniques perhaps, but calling them advanced is assuming they are useful on the road, which is precisely the point at issue.
Edited by Austin Prefect on Saturday 7th June 12:06
As to whether or not these are Advanced Techniques, my view is as I wrote above: 'Neither of these techniques are remotely sanctioned let alone recommended by the major 'Advanced Driving' organisations. That said, I consider that both techniques work well in contributing to a smooth safe road drive.'
waremark said:
Austin Prefect said:
I've never found this an issue. After all you can engage the next gear while braking providing you get back on the power to declutch.
I'm not sure it's right to call the listed techniques 'advanced' anyway. Track techniques perhaps, but calling them advanced is assuming they are useful on the road, which is precisely the point at issue.
So you are approaching a downhill hairpin. I use H & T to change down to second gear while still firmly on the brakes and am ready to accelerate when the road levels out. How do you deal with this equally tidily without H & T?I'm not sure it's right to call the listed techniques 'advanced' anyway. Track techniques perhaps, but calling them advanced is assuming they are useful on the road, which is precisely the point at issue.
Edited by Austin Prefect on Saturday 7th June 12:06
As to whether or not these are Advanced Techniques, my view is as I wrote above: 'Neither of these techniques are remotely sanctioned let alone recommended by the major 'Advanced Driving' organisations. That said, I consider that both techniques work well in contributing to a smooth safe road drive.'
SendWithoutEnd said:
Hey everyone! (Not to start my PH career by kicking a hornets nest, or anything, but ) What re your thoughts about heel-and-toeing and/or left-foot braking, trailing the brakes, and so on on the road?
Personally, I ve been surprised by the number of people who react with horror. Even when I m not giving it anywhere near full send, there s something deeply pleasing about knowing that a buttery downshift took a bit of work. And, when I am
Well, I m lucky to have plenty of well-sighted, yumpy roads on my doorstep. Especially in a hot hatch, left-foot braking into a corner just feels logical. It doesn t matter how close you are to the limit: it s always more fun than guiding it in on the throttle. And the way you can feel the front tyres gnawing at the blacktop, the car pivoting around its length, as if you ve hammered a tent peg into the shifter This is about as close as you can get to Pure Car, for my money, and it seems a shame to exclude oneself from it.
(Or, very possibly, I m just way too young, and really quite dim, and haven t yet calibrated my risk tolerance for public roads )
I would get 100% familiar with Roadcraft first. If you have not already, get an assessment done and then get to a point where you can teach, or observe other drivers attempting to improve their drive. At this point you will begin an amazing journey that is bolstered by what you observe from teaching others. Personally, I ve been surprised by the number of people who react with horror. Even when I m not giving it anywhere near full send, there s something deeply pleasing about knowing that a buttery downshift took a bit of work. And, when I am
Well, I m lucky to have plenty of well-sighted, yumpy roads on my doorstep. Especially in a hot hatch, left-foot braking into a corner just feels logical. It doesn t matter how close you are to the limit: it s always more fun than guiding it in on the throttle. And the way you can feel the front tyres gnawing at the blacktop, the car pivoting around its length, as if you ve hammered a tent peg into the shifter This is about as close as you can get to Pure Car, for my money, and it seems a shame to exclude oneself from it.
(Or, very possibly, I m just way too young, and really quite dim, and haven t yet calibrated my risk tolerance for public roads
)Seek out and pay for the input of others, such as HPC, for their valuable assistance in developing your drive. Then, reassess your original post and what, if anything, you wish to achieve on the roads in your vicinity.
It's good to be a driver. But it is more important for the driver to be good.
SendWithoutEnd said:
(Or, very possibly, I m just way too young, and really quite dim, and haven't yet calibrated my risk tolerance for public roads )
If you can stop on your side of the road without clattering anything then everything is up for grabs IME. However, if you [i]need[i] to use any of those techniques to achieve that then you might want to consider a different approach. It's just another tool in the toolbox and, like any tool, isn't used all the time (unless you're a Brummie for whom a hammer serves as hammer, spanner, screwdriver, means of instruction and overall resolution to any argument). )I find there's little more tedious than sitting alongside someone who H&Ts every gearchange and/or trail brakes into every corner. Similarly someone who separates all the time falls into that category. Seriously, there are situations where I defy you to be able to separate gears and brakes without looking like a pedantic clown. Any steep downhill into tight corner springs to mind although those who have in the past paid me money for tuition will remember 'that' bend. When a man is tired of being on the wrong side of the road halfway round a tightish bend he is tired of life (both literally and figuratively).
FWIW I do H&T and trail braking, but due to anatomical deficiencies (I've got a buggered ankle which means that the foot position necessary to achieve the manoeuvre crushes sensitive parts) I can't LFB. But I've got my first auto coming next weekend so with a big fat brake pedal I might be able to learn.
I use both techniques a lot, especially trail braking because of Dave's Law of Limit Points. For those who haven't heard that particular waffle it's summed up by 'you brake for the limit point you have, not the one you think you're going to have when you get a bit closer to the hazard/bend/something you might wish not to hit'. H&T naturally follows on from using trail braking because if you're braking beyond the turn-in point you'll need to take a gear at some point (if the corner is tight enough compared to your current speed/gear choice).
I do hate the term 'full send' though... it conjures up all sorts of thoughts, none of them pretty.
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