Skid Pan Training

[zarjaz1991]

As part of my renewed enthusiasm for driving that unexpectedly came out of having a hired Merc CLA for the week though work (see here), I have been putting together a list of things I'd like to do to captialise on this and make myself a better driver. I consider myself to be an "ok" driver, others tell me I'm very good (including work), but I'm aware there are areas where I'm lacking, I'm not talking about bad habits and suchlike, it's more about actual skills.

So I want to make myself a better driver and improve my skills, and make it so things like dealing with skids happen instinctively, not "well I know the theory behind it", which I often do but that's little use in a real life unexpected situation.

So the first of these is some decent skid pan training. Again I know the theory behind skids (albeit I last did any sort of training on it over a decade ago and that was a 20 minute session run by the local council) but it's been over a decade since I was actually in one, and even that was feeble, and my issue will be making sure I am instinctively doing the right thing without a second thought. At the moment I'm not confident I'd do that in a tricky situation.

I don't want one of the basic courses where you share a car with four other people and get about ten minutes behind the wheel (and the instructor isn't even in the car!)

I want an advanced one-to-one session where my weaknesses at skid handling can be identified and worked upon, leaving me confident I have the skills to deal with such things, and generally just be a better driver.

Skid pan training is just the start of it, there's more I want to do, but I want to take it a step at a time.

This is the one I am currently considering: here

I would welcome anyone's thoughts on this stuff.

Scott

Edited by zarjaz1991 on Saturday 20th September 09:45

[Cats_pyjamas]

Rather than pure skid pan training, have you thought about a drift car training or rally school?

I did Phil price rally school many years ago, it was great.

Basically when sideways it's all about throttle control and controlled inputs. Which i'm not sure a skid pan will give a realistic feel.

[zarjaz1991]

Cats_pyjamas said:

Rather than pure skid pan training, have you thought about a drift car training or rally school?

I did Phil price rally school many years ago, it was great.

Basically when sideways it's all about throttle control and controlled inputs. Which i'm not sure a skid pan will give a realistic feel.

That's an interesting thought, no I hadn't considered that.

I will look into it. Thanks.

Scott

[Bill]

Are Palmer days still a thing?

[Rushjob]

Cats_pyjamas said:

Rather than pure skid pan training, have you thought about a drift car training or rally school?

I did Phil price rally school many years ago, it was great.

Basically when sideways it's all about throttle control and controlled inputs. Which i'm not sure a skid pan will give a realistic feel.

A well set up skid pan or frame car will definitely test your ability to control the car using throttle / steering and braking inputs quite realistically whilst moving at a relatively low speed allowing you to quickly gain confidence and "feel" for how the vehicle responds to your inputs.

Over the years I have used the basics I was taught in those lessons to assist me driving in both normal and adverse conditions at speed on response drives and during pursuits ( and possibly when driving a little enthusiastically in my own vehicles....)

[zarjaz1991]

Rushjob said:

A well set up skid pan or frame car will definitely test your ability to control the car using throttle / steering and braking inputs quite realistically whilst moving at a relatively low speed allowing you to quickly gain confidence and "feel" for how the vehicle responds to your inputs.

Over the years I have used the basics I was taught in those lessons to assist me driving in both normal and adverse conditions at speed on response drives and during pursuits ( and possibly when driving a little enthusiastically in my own vehicles....)

Thanks...this aligns perfectly with what I hope to achieve from this....thank you.

Scott

[Mezzanine]

Try and take this in the constructive way it is intended.

I think almost every picture you have posted in your Mercedes thread has you driving with only one hand on the steering wheel, and seemingly with either a ‘locked’ arm or with a light grip on the wheel. None of this will help you in a skid/unexpected situation and is the first thing you could change for free.

It may be the camera distortion but your seat also seems to be in a rather ‘laid back’ position too which again is not exactly the best situation for dealing with things in a timely and controlled manner.

A few times, you allude to driving at three figures on the public road/‘racetrack’…

Maybe book some sessions with an IAM or similar instructor or delve into the wealth of free knowledge on this very sub forum for some education.

You also seem to film all of your drives, if you were to post up these videos I am sure you would get some useful feedback to help you be a better driver.

[Zilla]

I would recommmend https://catdrivertraining.co.uk/ for a very professional, informative and transfromative training courses. Second to none IMHO

I learnt more in 8 hours training with them than I did in years of driving. I considered myself a good and competent driver but the training gave me far more confidence in cornering and understanding the physical and mechanical aspects of what my car is actually doing in relation to my inputs. Understanding this made me a more complete and quicker driver allowing me to get closer to the limits of my car in a controlled manner. My course covered single input steering, threshold braking, compliance steering and some skid control, as well as plenty ot track time on several of the MIRA circuits.

They do a skid pan course (which I haven't personally taken) is that is something that you specfically want to do, though I would speak to them and work out what you want out of a course and they will recommmend where to start.

https://catdrivertraining.co.uk/road-driving-acade...

[zarjaz1991]

Mezzanine said:

Try and take this in the constructive way it is intended.

Of course. I'm never offended.

Mezzanine said:

I think almost every picture you have posted in your Mercedes thread has you driving with only one hand on the steering wheel, and seemingly with either a locked arm or with a light grip on the wheel. None of this will help you in a skid/unexpected situation and is the first thing you could change for free.

This is a valid point and it has occurred to me that my somewhat relaxed driving style my have to be adapted somewhat. Obviously for skid pan training I wouldn't dream of driving like that. I probably need to try and get used to using both hands again, I find it uncomfortable but if its in the interests of improving my overall skills it might have to be. Light grip on the wheel, yes guilty, Locked arm, much less common but yes guilty.

Mezzanine said:

It may be the camera distortion but your seat also seems to be in a rather laid back position too which again is not exactly the best situation for dealing with things in a timely and controlled manner.

I do think that's the camera angle. I've noticed it myself, it also sometimes makes me look really fat. The camera is clipped onto the passenger seat most of the time and has to be angled weirdly to get everything in while also trying not to have my face in the video (not that it bothers me too much and it's slipped into a few but I'd rather it not be). If I'm going to do this sort of thing regularly I will need to invest in proper equipment, and maybe do them as "POV" videos which seem to be the trend these days. But the seat is absolutely in a very normal position and isn't reclined back or anything. I'd be quite uncomfortable if it was because, despite the relaxed style, I'm fully alert at all times.

What I don't want to do is become someone who drives everywhere like they're on their driving test. That's not me and never will be. All the wheel shuffling stuff, two hands absolutely all the time, I hate it and it's just not at all practical when you drive a lot in your job and for leisure. 2066 miles I did in that Merc in 8 days, it's got to be comfortable and not torturing myself. There's a balance to be struck somewhere and I'm probably too far one way at the moment.

Mezzanine said:

A few times, you allude to driving at three figures on the public road/ racetrack

<cough> Yes. Not that common these days to be honest, I just got a bit excited a couple of times. Ahem. It's not big and it's not clever, etc . I used to do it more often when younger, as many of us did. I really won't keep doing it because inevitably I'll lose my licence at some point and I can't have that. On reflection I've probably already done that for the final time.

Mezzanine said:

Maybe book some sessions with an IAM or similar instructor or delve into the wealth of free knowledge on this very sub forum for some education.

IAM or something similar is kind of next on the list. I'll be starting a separate thread about that once I've sorted the skid pan stuff.

Mezzanine said:

You also seem to film all of your drives, if you were to post up these videos I am sure you would get some useful feedback to help you be a better driver.

The plan is to upload some of them, I've even created a YouTube channel for this, (and a TikTok - see how down wiv da kidz I am!) but some of them are really long and need editing right down. I think 43 minutes was the longest and it'll send me to sleep never mind anyone else. Some of them I talk on which is probably really dull and others I'm silent which is even more dull. I'll likely make some better ones using the Mondeos as well as I'm a bit new to this.

Also the position of the camera means it doesn't always really capture what's happening on the road ahead so you don't get the full context. In one of them someone pulls up and does a three point turn on a busy single carriageway A-road, which I could scarcely believe, I stopped well short of him but you don't really get the full picture on the video. My utter incredulity at his actions does come across though!

Thank you though for the feedback. As part of this, which has crept up on me to be honest in the past week or so, I'm getting pretty serious about upskilling myself, both in driving and other areas, so it will evolve.

Yours, Upskillingly
Scott

[zarjaz1991]

Zilla said:

I would recommmend https://catdrivertraining.co.uk/ for a very professional, informative and transfromative training courses. Second to none IMHO

I learnt more in 8 hours training with them than I did in years of driving. I considered myself a good and competent driver but the training gave me far more confidence in cornering and understanding the physical and mechanical aspects of what my car is actually doing in relation to my inputs. Understanding this made me a more complete and quicker driver allowing me to get closer to the limits of my car in a controlled manner. My course covered single input steering, threshold braking, compliance steering and some skid control, as well as plenty ot track time on several of the MIRA circuits.

They do a skid pan course (which I haven't personally taken) is that is something that you specfically want to do, though I would speak to them and work out what you want out of a course and they will recommmend where to start.

https://catdrivertraining.co.uk/road-driving-acade...

Thanks, that does sound very much like the sort of thing I want to move onto post-skid pan, I plan to start another thread on that some point.

It's not too far from me either.

Scott

[Mezzanine]

Zilla said:

I would recommmend https://catdrivertraining.co.uk/ for a very professional, informative and transfromative training courses. Second to none IMHO

I learnt more in 8 hours training with them than I did in years of driving. I considered myself a good and competent driver but the training gave me far more confidence in cornering and understanding the physical and mechanical aspects of what my car is actually doing in relation to my inputs. Understanding this made me a more complete and quicker driver allowing me to get closer to the limits of my car in a controlled manner. My course covered single input steering, threshold braking, compliance steering and some skid control, as well as plenty ot track time on several of the MIRA circuits.

They do a skid pan course (which I haven't personally taken) is that is something that you specfically want to do, though I would speak to them and work out what you want out of a course and they will recommmend where to start.

https://catdrivertraining.co.uk/road-driving-acade...

Colin and his team are excellent.

They also have access to the Skid Pad at Millbrook/UTAC so you could combine everything in one. You’ll learn much more about driving from the non-skid pan stuff and also have that experience thrown in too.

[Mezzanine]

zarjaz1991 said:

Obviously for skid pan training I wouldn't dream of driving like that. I probably need to try and get used to using both hands again, I find it uncomfortable but if it’s in the interests of improving my overall skills it might have to be.

zarjaz1991 said:

What I don't want to do is become someone who drives everywhere like they're on their driving test. That's not me and never will be. All the wheel shuffling stuff, two hands absolutely all the time, I hate it and it's just not at all practical when you drive a lot in your job and for leisure.

It’s not necessarily about shuffle steering like a new driver, but having two points of contact on the steering wheel is a fundamental element of being a ‘better’ driver. No one has both hands on the wheel 100 percent of the time but your resting driving position should be two hands on the wheel for the majority of your driving.

You’d think putting your vacant hand back on the wheel only takes a few seconds or so but in a skid/avoidance situation when you are travelling at speed those lost seconds could have a big impact on the behaviour of your vehicle and outcome of the situation overall.

[Cheib]

Mezzanine said:

Zilla said:

I would recommmend https://catdrivertraining.co.uk/ for a very professional, informative and transfromative training courses. Second to none IMHO

I learnt more in 8 hours training with them than I did in years of driving. I considered myself a good and competent driver but the training gave me far more confidence in cornering and understanding the physical and mechanical aspects of what my car is actually doing in relation to my inputs. Understanding this made me a more complete and quicker driver allowing me to get closer to the limits of my car in a controlled manner. My course covered single input steering, threshold braking, compliance steering and some skid control, as well as plenty ot track time on several of the MIRA circuits.

They do a skid pan course (which I haven't personally taken) is that is something that you specfically want to do, though I would speak to them and work out what you want out of a course and they will recommmend where to start.

https://catdrivertraining.co.uk/road-driving-acade...

Colin and his team are excellent.

They also have access to the Skid Pad at Millbrook/UTAC so you could combine everything in one. You ll learn much more about driving from the non-skid pan stuff and also have that experience thrown in too.

I've done a day with Cat at Milbrook, I've also done a private one on one day with "my own" instructor at Milbrook.

The Cat day is very good but I did find there was quite a lot of waiting around. I've also done a one on one day with an instructor at Milbrook, which I found better if I am honest because there is much more seat time and you can also (as I did) do a couple of hours of advanced driver training on the road at the end or start of the day. It's possible as part of the private day to book the skid pan. The Cat day also doesn't utilise all of Milbrook, they don't take you on the hardest part of the Alpine Loop...at least the day I did didn't. On a £ for hours of driving basis the private day was much better value.

The Porsche Experience Centre at Silverstone is also very good, you could book a half day there with your own car if a Porsche or an "experience" in one of their cars. They've got three specific areas for working on car control away from the tracks. Kick plate, ice hill and a low friction area. The kick plate teaches you car control when the back end steps out in a pretty aggressive way. Ice Hill teaches you about grip limits...very small steering a throttle inputs make a huge difference....and the Low Friction area is effectively an area where you can put a car in a drift/search for grip limits on low friction tarmac.

[zarjaz1991]

Mezzanine said:

I think almost every picture you have posted in your Mercedes thread has you driving with only one hand on the steering wheel, and seemingly with either a locked arm or with a light grip on the wheel. None of this will help you in a skid/unexpected situation and is the first thing you could change for free.

Taking this on board, I've recorded a video this afternoon where I try to do this better. Both hands and better grip. I accept I'm going to have to cure this if I want to move on to any sort of advanced driver training post skid pan. Which I definitely do. I'm telling myself it's a "pride in the job" thing, which a theme I'm using in various areas at the moment.

I think I'll need to do it more often for a while, I get an ache in my right arm and maybe doing this more will build up whatever muscle that is. Or something.

I haven't sorted the video uploads yet, but I will, understanding that I'll be pulled to pieces on here. But here's a still which shows I'm being a good boy now



Yours, well behavedly,
Scott

[Olivergt]

OP, have you watched any of Reg Local's videos or read any of his threads on here?

I would suggest they are an excellent place to start, there will be something there even for the most advanced drivers.

The skid training looks like it would be a huge amount of fun, so do, go ahead and do it.

But don't discount getting all the basics to the best of your ability as well, as that will, hopefully, prevent you ever having to use your skid training in the real world.

God Luck with your training, which ever route you take and we'll done for wanting to improve and asking for help in here, not many would do that.

Finally, keep us posted on what you learn.

[zarjaz1991]

Olivergt said:

OP, have you watched any of Reg Local's videos or read any of his threads on here?

I would suggest they are an excellent place to start, there will be something there even for the most advanced drivers.

I confess I have not, though I am aware of them. I shall plan in done study time to have a look!

Olivergt said:

The skid training looks like it would be a huge amount of fun, so do, go ahead and do it.

Thanks, yes I think it will be great fun to do, and it's two hours one to one, so my hope is the instructor will really pick up on strengths and weaknesses. I should come out a better driver from that alone.

Olivergt said:

But don't discount getting all the basics to the best of your ability as well, as that will, hopefully, prevent you ever having to use your skid training in the real world.

Yes, the next step after the skid pan will be some sort of advanced driver training, but I will want to get the basics right as well.

Olivergt said:

Good Luck with your training, which ever route you take and we'll done for wanting to improve and asking for help in here, not many would do that.

Thanks. I've never been one to claim to be brilliant at driving (or anything), but even I was, even the best can still improve.

I consider myself an "ok" driver. People I work with insist I'm much better than that. But I want to be loads better. "Moving from good to great" I believe is the phrase.

My exploits in the CLA reawakened a love of driving which I think had started to fizzle out - and I hadn't noticed. An extension from that is "pride in the job" and that's what the training's about.

It's the little things. At some point recently I had stopped reversing the cars onto my driveway (it can be a little awkward as the entrance is only wide enough for one car but there's space for two). And I don't even remember that as a conscious decision. So I started reversing them in again. It takes a little more time but it's a good discipline to keep up, and it's "pride in the job".
I've become quite annoyed with myself that I allowed the big thing I'm passionate about (driving) to become so....run of the mill.

Olivergt said:

Finally, keep us posted on what you learn.

I plan to. No turning back now!

I'm quite sure when I start putting the videos up I will get torn to pieces. You can find faults and mistakes with even the best drivers. But I'm sure most will be polite to me and not ask how I ever passed my test! seriously, I am pretty reasonable but I know where my skills need to improve, and it's not about bad habits, it's certain skills that I want to become better at.

Yours, trainingly,
Scott

[zarjaz1991]

This really my first semi-presentable attempt at a video. Doing this is fairly new to me, in terms of actually how it is presented etc. I've experimented with entirely silent ones, which seemed flat, and then ones where I try and talk and waffle through the whole thing, which seemed...boring! I don't think my "witty banter" settings work terribly well.

So I thought I'd try this, where there's a very small amount of speech but it mostly silent.

This is the first one I've done where I'm trying to drive with both hands most of the time, based on comments earlier in thread. Not something I've done to any great degree pretty much since I passed my test, unless there've been extenuating circumstances. I don't find it too comfortable at this point, it makes my right arm ache after long periods of it, but maybe if I do it more it'll help with that. But if you like we can call it progress because at least I've tried!

Also, this wasn't about "hooning" or going fast round corners or any stuff like that. Just as well, as whilst a video of me going into a hedge would certainly be more entertaining, it's not a path I wanted to go down.

As has been observed previously, the camera angle makes it look like the seat is heavily reclined, it's not, it's quite normal.

One thing I've learned from doing this is that I can cross off "film maker" from my potential future careers list. And indeed "YouTube Influencer" for that matter, as the only thing my videos are likely to influence is people never to watch them again.

I'm fully aware I'm setting myself up to be pulled down in pieces, shot down in flames etc (though I'll be going down in a blaze of glory etc) and I'm not even sure what this type of drive is going to tell anyone, apart from the fact that I don't like tractors much! But if you really think I'm a ste driver, let's hear the reasons and not just the insults.

Click image below.


https://youtu.be/zx2fWEOr7MA

Scott

[zarjaz1991]

Well that video seemed to scare everyone off.

Undeterred, I will have another one shortly.

I notice YouTube has made a mess of the quality of it, I've tried various methods to try and make it retain the quality but it's making it SD for no apparent reason.

Scott

[trashbat]

I've done IAM. I haven't done any skid pan training. So obviously there's a bias here. But...

I would say that you would be much, much better served by doing IAM or equivalent first. That is training aimed at improving your entire system of driving, including your attitude. For much of this experience, you will probably take a critical beating and not enjoy it very much. Adapting your habits is not particularly fun. But if you persist and adapt, you will come out of it quite a different driver, certainly much safer. And you will have a different, not necessarily greater, level of confidence.

Then, if you wanted, you could do limit handling, one form of which is skid pan training.

I would advise against doing set piece training first, because I think it builds on a weak foundation and encourages Dunning-Kruger style overconfidence and could actually worsen your driving - 'oh I'm trained to deal with this so I can afford to push the envelope'. Ideally you shouldn't ever need skid pan training in normal road driving because your driving should never induce a skid. Obviously touch wood, there but for the grace of God go we, etc etc, but I think it is broadly true and something to think about. If on the other hand you wanted to add to strong advanced driving foundations by having some emergency techniques, that's a better idea.

None of this is a comment on you personally, it's about drivers in general. I have skim read the thread but I don't know what your driving is like.

Edit: picking up on this particularly:

zarjaz1991 said:

Yes, the next step after the skid pan will be some sort of advanced driver training, but I will want to get the basics right as well.

You have this wrong. Advanced training is 'the basics' and then skid handling is a specialism.

Edited by trashbat on Tuesday 23 September 13:39

[trashbat]

In terms of videos, if we were going to usefully assess your driving, we'd need to see more of the road and less of the cabin. Both views are useful - it is helpful to see how you're reacting, how you're using the controls, but we can't see enough of hazards and road environment, and we can't see it from approximately your position. We can guess speed but we can't see it. Possibly you could use a dashcam plus your in-car camera and edit them together?

I watched a couple of minutes so I don't have detailed feedback. If you did do IAM, you could expect some immediate themes of feedback. The main thing they will force you to do is adopt a 'system' of driving, separating steering and gear changes, and always being in the right gear for the conditions. I didn't spot you doing anything truly horrible but various times you are merging gears & steering together and therefore doing too much at once. I also think you're reliant on the car still being responsive in what would classically be the wrong gear, so your drive sometimes feels more lethargic than it does urgent. Extending that critique, I think quite a lot of what you do could be 'sharper' - more distinct reactions, especially variation of speed. Sometimes you're probably too fast, sometimes you could be significantly faster, but again - foundations.

I hate trying to provide commentary and I didn't do it for IAM. But if you are a person who can manage to talk and drive, let's hear what you're seeing, what the hazards are, what the road is doing, how the view is developing and what it means for your speed, not how you're feeling or what a nice day it is.

Edited by trashbat on Tuesday 23 September 17:32