Be able to stop in the distance you can see tips?
Discussion
Sounds simple I know, but when my daily travels take me through NSL rural areas and no streetlights for miles, I am probably guilty from time to time of not being able to stop in the distance I can see.
By this I mean if I encountered someone wearing black, tapdancing in the middle of the road, in the night im not sure it would go well for them.
How do other drivers view this? is it a bit much to make it 'be able to stop in the distance you can see an object that has taken reasonable precautions to be visible given the conditions'
Id imagine that is a bit too far but im not really too sure on how to follow this rule. I mean, if a camouflaged person or animal decided to leap out at the last moment.. wheres the burden of responsibilty? is that an accident, or a mistake on the drivers part?
By this I mean if I encountered someone wearing black, tapdancing in the middle of the road, in the night im not sure it would go well for them.
How do other drivers view this? is it a bit much to make it 'be able to stop in the distance you can see an object that has taken reasonable precautions to be visible given the conditions'
Id imagine that is a bit too far but im not really too sure on how to follow this rule. I mean, if a camouflaged person or animal decided to leap out at the last moment.. wheres the burden of responsibilty? is that an accident, or a mistake on the drivers part?
If you can't stop in the distance you can see to be clear you are going to fast, pretty simple really. I admit it's fairly impracticable though, and people are rarely prosecuted for it unless there are other aggravating factors. We all disregard it most of the time and take the risk.
I Sh*t myself one night because someone had left a mannequin
in the middle of an unlit road, luckily however I was pootling along, but still nearly ended up in ditch avoiding what I thought was a body in the road. Leapt out and ran back to the casualty to discover genderless head/torso with old trousers! Put all my first aid skills into use, pulled it's head off and chucked it all over the hedge into field! Slowed down even more after that. 
I Sh*t myself one night because someone had left a mannequin
in the middle of an unlit road, luckily however I was pootling along, but still nearly ended up in ditch avoiding what I thought was a body in the road. Leapt out and ran back to the casualty to discover genderless head/torso with old trousers! Put all my first aid skills into use, pulled it's head off and chucked it all over the hedge into field! Slowed down even more after that. Edited by peterperkins on Friday 14th December 12:39
It's a difficult thing to judge in reality. The distance you can see, and your ability to stop depend on a number of variables, including weather conditions, visibility, road surface condition, the condition of your tyres, shock absorbers, your car's braking capabilities, etc, etc.
When teaching on advanced Police courses, we have a day early on in the course, when we take students to an old airfield and let them try threshold braking from different speeds, and make comparisons with both the highway code stopping distances, and with their own perception of how quickly a car will stop.
I can't remember a student ever underestimating the cars stopping distance - they always think it will take longer to come to a complete stop than it actually does.
Now, of course, this is under threshold braking - the absolute limit of the car's stopping ability, and involves pressing the brake pedal as quickly and as hard as possible whilst retaining some control, but that's all that's required - Roadcraft doesn't say that you have to be able to stop smoothly and comfortably in the distance you can see - it says you have to be able to stop safely (under full control) in the distance you can see. There is quite a difference between the two, and very few people ever use threshold braking on the public road - if they did, then Mercedes and other manufacturers wouldn't have invented "brake assist" type systems.
My advice would be to find somewhere safe - preferably away from the public roads, but at best somewhere with no traffic whatsoever and nothing to hit. Take some markers - I use traffic cones, but anything visible will do, and mark out a braking point. Approach that point at different speeds, and as you pass it, hit the brakes as hard as possible and see how far it takes you to stop. Compare these distances with those in the highway code, and with your own preconceptions of braking distances, and I'm certain that you'll be surprised how short the distances are.
This should give you much more confidence on the roads when working out the safe stopping rule.
When teaching on advanced Police courses, we have a day early on in the course, when we take students to an old airfield and let them try threshold braking from different speeds, and make comparisons with both the highway code stopping distances, and with their own perception of how quickly a car will stop.
I can't remember a student ever underestimating the cars stopping distance - they always think it will take longer to come to a complete stop than it actually does.
Now, of course, this is under threshold braking - the absolute limit of the car's stopping ability, and involves pressing the brake pedal as quickly and as hard as possible whilst retaining some control, but that's all that's required - Roadcraft doesn't say that you have to be able to stop smoothly and comfortably in the distance you can see - it says you have to be able to stop safely (under full control) in the distance you can see. There is quite a difference between the two, and very few people ever use threshold braking on the public road - if they did, then Mercedes and other manufacturers wouldn't have invented "brake assist" type systems.
My advice would be to find somewhere safe - preferably away from the public roads, but at best somewhere with no traffic whatsoever and nothing to hit. Take some markers - I use traffic cones, but anything visible will do, and mark out a braking point. Approach that point at different speeds, and as you pass it, hit the brakes as hard as possible and see how far it takes you to stop. Compare these distances with those in the highway code, and with your own preconceptions of braking distances, and I'm certain that you'll be surprised how short the distances are.
This should give you much more confidence on the roads when working out the safe stopping rule.
It can be done in stages. Get used to judging your stopping distance at (say) 30 mph, then at 50 mph pick a marker that you are aiming to stop at, brake hard from 50 down to 30 and see if the distance left would have been enough to stop.
Another way to do it is to calculate your theoretical braking distance in terms of time at your initial speed. For example braking from 80 mph to standstill at 1G takes roughly 4 seconds, and if you *aren't* braking it takes you 2 seconds to cover the same distance. So a 2 second gap is the same length as the skid marks you would leave if you did an emergency stop at 1G. Obviously the braking distance increases as the level of grip reduces, and it also increases if you are asking the tyres to corner as well as brake, and obviously this excludes reaction time. But it's a good way to get an initial feel for stopping distances in terms of what it looks like on the road, rather than numbers in the highway code.
Another way to do it is to calculate your theoretical braking distance in terms of time at your initial speed. For example braking from 80 mph to standstill at 1G takes roughly 4 seconds, and if you *aren't* braking it takes you 2 seconds to cover the same distance. So a 2 second gap is the same length as the skid marks you would leave if you did an emergency stop at 1G. Obviously the braking distance increases as the level of grip reduces, and it also increases if you are asking the tyres to corner as well as brake, and obviously this excludes reaction time. But it's a good way to get an initial feel for stopping distances in terms of what it looks like on the road, rather than numbers in the highway code.
Its 21.50 and the motorway is unlit, lane one is coned off with then biggest cones they make, I am doing 50mph cos that what the sign says two trucks from the same firm are about 400 yards in front because they passed me earlier )2 mins), then all of a sudden there appears a cone lay down with its matt black base facing me.
Being in an Artic and going up hill maybe I could have swerved round it but there was something in lane 3 but not at the side of me and a car right behind be.............. So I hit the cone and busted my front plastic bumper, the 2" by 3" girder behind was ok but the cone jammed underneath, I stopped at the next slip road and phoned the police just incase I left more debri behind than I hit.
There showed up said "It was all clear" and for me to carry on.
Yes in theory I suppose I was travelling too fast for what I could see but the matt black base of a big cone is hard to see in the dark and If I had swerved the guy behind probably would have written his car off, so could I have done it differentely?, I don't think I could lets just hope my boss sees it my way.
This happened on Tuesday at J37, thanks Mr and Mrs plod
Being in an Artic and going up hill maybe I could have swerved round it but there was something in lane 3 but not at the side of me and a car right behind be.............. So I hit the cone and busted my front plastic bumper, the 2" by 3" girder behind was ok but the cone jammed underneath, I stopped at the next slip road and phoned the police just incase I left more debri behind than I hit.
There showed up said "It was all clear" and for me to carry on.
Yes in theory I suppose I was travelling too fast for what I could see but the matt black base of a big cone is hard to see in the dark and If I had swerved the guy behind probably would have written his car off, so could I have done it differentely?, I don't think I could lets just hope my boss sees it my way.
This happened on Tuesday at J37, thanks Mr and Mrs plod
If a deer jumps out in front of you, you may feel that it's unreasonable for anybody to expect you to be able to stop safely without hitting it. Dependent on the circumstances, you may be right. But if you're driving down a forested road at dusk, passing repeated wild animal warning signs, then it may be considered reasonable to expect deer to be active. Whether you drive at a crawl to enable you to stop should a deer jump out, or drive quickly on the basis that you want to clear the hazardous area without delay, is a matter for you to reflect upon...
Stopping a car quickly and safely is a rare skill, even with modern vehicle systems. Experimenting with threshold braking will help your technique and understanding, but bear in mind that the exercise will warm your brakes and tyres and may leave an unrealistically favourable impression of your car's stopping potential. I've certainly driven cars in which it isn't possible to lock a wheel when the brakes are cold - just the sort of car that you see on the motorway, with cold brakes, every day of the year...
WilliBetz
Stopping a car quickly and safely is a rare skill, even with modern vehicle systems. Experimenting with threshold braking will help your technique and understanding, but bear in mind that the exercise will warm your brakes and tyres and may leave an unrealistically favourable impression of your car's stopping potential. I've certainly driven cars in which it isn't possible to lock a wheel when the brakes are cold - just the sort of car that you see on the motorway, with cold brakes, every day of the year...
WilliBetz
R_U_LOCAL said:
It's a difficult thing to judge in reality. The distance you can see, and your ability to stop depend on a number of variables, including weather conditions, visibility, road surface condition, the condition of your tyres, shock absorbers, your car's braking capabilities, etc, etc.
When teaching on advanced Police courses, we have a day early on in the course, when we take students to an old airfield and let them try threshold braking from different speeds, and make comparisons with both the highway code stopping distances, and with their own perception of how quickly a car will stop.
I can't remember a student ever underestimating the cars stopping distance - they always think it will take longer to come to a complete stop than it actually does.
Now, of course, this is under threshold braking - the absolute limit of the car's stopping ability, and involves pressing the brake pedal as quickly and as hard as possible whilst retaining some control, but that's all that's required - Roadcraft doesn't say that you have to be able to stop smoothly and comfortably in the distance you can see - it says you have to be able to stop safely (under full control) in the distance you can see. There is quite a difference between the two, and very few people ever use threshold braking on the public road - if they did, then Mercedes and other manufacturers wouldn't have invented "brake assist" type systems.
My advice would be to find somewhere safe - preferably away from the public roads, but at best somewhere with no traffic whatsoever and nothing to hit. Take some markers - I use traffic cones, but anything visible will do, and mark out a braking point. Approach that point at different speeds, and as you pass it, hit the brakes as hard as possible and see how far it takes you to stop. Compare these distances with those in the highway code, and with your own preconceptions of braking distances, and I'm certain that you'll be surprised how short the distances are.
This should give you much more confidence on the roads when working out the safe stopping rule.
So, what you are inferring is that the majority of drivers are not properly trained in the braking possibility of their vehicles?.When teaching on advanced Police courses, we have a day early on in the course, when we take students to an old airfield and let them try threshold braking from different speeds, and make comparisons with both the highway code stopping distances, and with their own perception of how quickly a car will stop.
I can't remember a student ever underestimating the cars stopping distance - they always think it will take longer to come to a complete stop than it actually does.
Now, of course, this is under threshold braking - the absolute limit of the car's stopping ability, and involves pressing the brake pedal as quickly and as hard as possible whilst retaining some control, but that's all that's required - Roadcraft doesn't say that you have to be able to stop smoothly and comfortably in the distance you can see - it says you have to be able to stop safely (under full control) in the distance you can see. There is quite a difference between the two, and very few people ever use threshold braking on the public road - if they did, then Mercedes and other manufacturers wouldn't have invented "brake assist" type systems.
My advice would be to find somewhere safe - preferably away from the public roads, but at best somewhere with no traffic whatsoever and nothing to hit. Take some markers - I use traffic cones, but anything visible will do, and mark out a braking point. Approach that point at different speeds, and as you pass it, hit the brakes as hard as possible and see how far it takes you to stop. Compare these distances with those in the highway code, and with your own preconceptions of braking distances, and I'm certain that you'll be surprised how short the distances are.
This should give you much more confidence on the roads when working out the safe stopping rule.
The next questions might be.
Would we want that majority so trained?.
Without all the other skills so necessary to ensure their safe progress?.
I don't want one of the "last of the late brakers" coming towards me.
Especially at this time of year.
Don't mind me though, I've been out driving today and therefore seeing others and their seemingly suicidal tendencies.
I think it's reasonable to presume that the skill required to stop a car as quickly as possible is desirable, and very different from routinely employing that skill.
As RUL implies, it's not a skill that many people bother to acquire, or that many organisations bother to test. I don't think ROSPA or the IAM covers it, though HPC does.
As RUL implies, it's not a skill that many people bother to acquire, or that many organisations bother to test. I don't think ROSPA or the IAM covers it, though HPC does.
At first take, I thought this was a pretty dumb thread.
But ... my worst nightmare is running up an unlit stretch of motorway at high speed late at night in the fast lane ...
and hitting a spare wheel fallen out the back of ...
perhaps even a truck's.
It's not so much the crash which would kill me, it's the fright of unexpectedly hitting and big dirty heavy unseen obstruction and having the car beneath me ‘explode’.
The blatant answer to this thread is of course to trim your road speed to not only what you can stop in how far you can see, but take some account of what you could reasonably expect to go wrong ...
... not that we ever do.
Otherwise, you wouldn't get out of bed in the morning.
But ... my worst nightmare is running up an unlit stretch of motorway at high speed late at night in the fast lane ...
and hitting a spare wheel fallen out the back of ...
perhaps even a truck's.
It's not so much the crash which would kill me, it's the fright of unexpectedly hitting and big dirty heavy unseen obstruction and having the car beneath me ‘explode’.
The blatant answer to this thread is of course to trim your road speed to not only what you can stop in how far you can see, but take some account of what you could reasonably expect to go wrong ...
... not that we ever do.
Otherwise, you wouldn't get out of bed in the morning.
I'm sure I remember an interview with a police/advanced driving instructor type who suggested that many accidents would be avoided or be less severe if people planted their foot on the brake pedal and kept it on it. Apparently people are basically "afraid" to do so and end up trying to stop quickly whilst not using anything like the full capability of the car.
I recall a colleague of mine who, on buying his first 911, took it back to the dealer complaining about the brake feel. Turns out he was frequently triggering the ABS, and did not know what the pulsing sensation meant. True story! 
Back on topic, I do think it is vital to have a sense of the braking performance of a car and know what an emergency stop feels like, from both low and high speed. One hopes never to need this "tool in the box", of course, but I do agree with those above who believe that threshold braking is an important skill (even with ABS, the driver can still "help" the system with the right technique).
As a corollary point, I try to ensure that in an unfamiliar car I perform three brake checks - one static, one at slow speed, and then, when conditions allow, a very firm stop from, say, 60 mph. I then feel much clearer about the responsiveness of the brakes, and of course, as relevant, the road conditions.
Kind regards
Steve
Back on topic, I do think it is vital to have a sense of the braking performance of a car and know what an emergency stop feels like, from both low and high speed. One hopes never to need this "tool in the box", of course, but I do agree with those above who believe that threshold braking is an important skill (even with ABS, the driver can still "help" the system with the right technique).
As a corollary point, I try to ensure that in an unfamiliar car I perform three brake checks - one static, one at slow speed, and then, when conditions allow, a very firm stop from, say, 60 mph. I then feel much clearer about the responsiveness of the brakes, and of course, as relevant, the road conditions.
Kind regards
Steve
A topic I raised a few years ago on PH... before the Advanced Driving forum arrived...
I strongly suspect most drivers are not able to stop in the distance they can see to be clear, specifically when driving on dipped headlights.
On an NSL with full beam, driving at the limit - 60 - may well be a sensible speed, but when there is oncoming traffic, (or following another vehicle at say 1/4 mile) you really cannot see what may be in the road within your stopping distance, but beyond the effective reach of the dipped headlights.
Assuming that dipped beams give 30 yards of clear illumination, that equates to a max speed of about 34mph (HC stopping distances), maybe 40 more realistically.
So who doesn't do 70 on unlit motorways, with oncoming traffic, on dipped beams, just assuming the carriageway is clear?
I strongly suspect most drivers are not able to stop in the distance they can see to be clear, specifically when driving on dipped headlights.
On an NSL with full beam, driving at the limit - 60 - may well be a sensible speed, but when there is oncoming traffic, (or following another vehicle at say 1/4 mile) you really cannot see what may be in the road within your stopping distance, but beyond the effective reach of the dipped headlights.
Assuming that dipped beams give 30 yards of clear illumination, that equates to a max speed of about 34mph (HC stopping distances), maybe 40 more realistically.
So who doesn't do 70 on unlit motorways, with oncoming traffic, on dipped beams, just assuming the carriageway is clear?
It's much easier with a vehicle in front, if you look at what their lights are illuminating. They carry the risk burden if they can't stop in the distance their lights illuminate, you have to be able to stop in the distance their lights afford you (minus the length of their vehicle of course).
stefan1 said:
As a corollary point, I try to ensure that in an unfamiliar car I perform three brake checks - one static, one at slow speed, and then, when conditions allow, a very firm stop from, say, 60 mph. I then feel much clearer about the responsiveness of the brakes, and of course, as relevant, the road conditions.
... and if you do the slow speed test with your left foot, you can determine whether the car will cut the throttle if the brake is pressed at the same time. Size Nine Elm said:
A topic I raised a few years ago on PH... before the Advanced Driving forum arrived...
I strongly suspect most drivers are not able to stop in the distance they can see to be clear, specifically when driving on dipped headlights.
On an NSL with full beam, driving at the limit - 60 - may well be a sensible speed, but when there is oncoming traffic, (or following another vehicle at say 1/4 mile) you really cannot see what may be in the road within your stopping distance, but beyond the effective reach of the dipped headlights.
Assuming that dipped beams give 30 yards of clear illumination, that equates to a max speed of about 34mph (HC stopping distances), maybe 40 more realistically.
So who doesn't do 70 on unlit motorways, with oncoming traffic, on dipped beams, just assuming the carriageway is clear?
This description expresses my concerns much more clearly than my opening post. Its that much more bothering when on NSL single carriageway and youre driving a relatively low car, meaning you are subject to extra headlight glare from oncoming traffic.I strongly suspect most drivers are not able to stop in the distance they can see to be clear, specifically when driving on dipped headlights.
On an NSL with full beam, driving at the limit - 60 - may well be a sensible speed, but when there is oncoming traffic, (or following another vehicle at say 1/4 mile) you really cannot see what may be in the road within your stopping distance, but beyond the effective reach of the dipped headlights.
Assuming that dipped beams give 30 yards of clear illumination, that equates to a max speed of about 34mph (HC stopping distances), maybe 40 more realistically.
So who doesn't do 70 on unlit motorways, with oncoming traffic, on dipped beams, just assuming the carriageway is clear?
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