Does heel/toe cause any extra wear on any parts of the car?

[mc_conor]

I cannot seem to find any information that heel and toe is bad, in anyway for your car. Or am i incorrect?

The reason being is i have started doing this on a regular basis (once the engine is warmed up and can blip the throttle without worry), and do not want to create unnecessary wear and tear.

I much prefer driving in this way as it is a much smoother ride and keeps me in the correct gear without juddery engine breaking.

So if anyone could tell me what they know about this subject that would be great. Thanks in adavnce.

[Daschund]

Depends how you do the maneuver.

One could argue that to do a proper heel and toe, one would be 'pressing on', and thus driving faster/harder than normal.

Using heel and toe, one can brake later (and ultimately harder) up to the corner.

So, one could argue that there may be an extra level of brake-wear occuring, due to the driver 'pressing on' and therefore requiring/desiring the heel+toe method of downchanging over the Roadcraft-Approved brake-gear sepperation.

Personally, I'd say "no more than normal" (assuming you always match engine revs to transmission speed).

[mc_conor]

Thats fine, i'm not too fussed on wearing down brake pads/ discs as they're not too much of an issue to replace.

It's true yes i would only heel/toe when "making progress" or whatever everyone on this site calls speed lol.

I'm more concerned about the clutch/gearbox/driveshaft; the major parts more than worrying about consumables.

Thanks for the reply Daschund.

PS you say that you can brake harder using the H/T method, how is that so, because there is no worry of the rear locking up at speed?

[mc_conor]

Thats fine, i'm not too fussed on wearing down brake pads/ discs as they're not too much of an issue to replace.

It's true yes i would only heel/toe when "making progress" or whatever everyone on this site calls speed lol.

I'm more concerned about the clutch/gearbox/driveshaft; the major parts more than worrying about consumables.

Thanks for the reply Daschund.

PS you say that you can brake harder using the H/T method, how is that so, because there is no worry of the rear locking up at speed?

[mc_conor]

This site is acting weird and displaying my post twice before i have even finished typing!

Is it because when engine breaking there is a variation in engine/transmission speed which meshes together, causing the tires to lose a bit of adhesion as the car readjusts? Or am i talking crap lol

[Daschund]

I'm only talking from my experience here...

When driving to "the system" (i.e. police Roadcraft system), I would be braking much earlier, and more progressively, coming off the brakes completely and THEN taking my gear (matching revs using the gas as I go) just before I make the turn.

When making progress (pressing on, driving enthusiastically, whatever you want to call it) I find myself braking slightly later, whapping down a gear or two using heel+toe and then making the turn/corner etc.

Because I'm driving faster (making progress) and braking later (part of making progress), I am ultimately going to be, by definition, braking harder than usual.

Not too hard to lock up etc, but still harder than normal.

This can cause extra wear on the brake components.

Still, no more than average, as you won't be "pressing on" all the time. There are drivers on this form who would state that heel+tow isn't necessary on the public roads, which I would agree with. Most people H+T because, well, they can.

Works wonders on the track, somewhat needless on your average public road (can work wonders on your favourite B road, however).

[Daschund]

mc_conor said:

Is it because when engine breaking there is a variation in engine/transmission speed which meshes together, causing the tires to lose a bit of adhesion as the car readjusts? Or am i talking crap lol

Hmm.

I think what you are refering to is what many here would call "clutch braking".

Using the clutch to match engine revs.

Don't do it.

If you heel+toe properly (or infact, just match revs probably in any fashion) then you will not have any adverse clutch wear, and, most importantly, will not destabalize the car to the extent of inducing a slide.

Here's a simple test.

Drive along at a constant speed. Observe what RPM your car does in, say, both 4th and 3rd. Drive at this speed in 4th gear. Change down a gear WITHOUT heel+toe/matching revs. You will feel a braking force, this is your clutch dragging the engine speed up. Causes wear on the clutch gubbins, and also destabilizes the car (very problematic in high performance RWD cars).

Do the same test again, drive at a constant speed in 4th. This time, when changing down to 3rd, match in the revs (either by blipping the throttle or sustaining the throttle) to raise the engine RPM to the RPM speed the car does in 3rd gear for this speed. Once matched, engage the clutch.

If done right, you will not feel the downchange (that dreaded braking force), you will only see the downchange (RPM change on the dashboard) and hear the downchange (increased exhaust note).

People simply dropping the clutch into lower gears in high-powered RWD cars when about to take corners is one of the reasons why they end up stacking them blunt-end first into the nearest scenery.

[mc_conor]

Lots of good information there, i'm not familiar with roadcraft although i have just ordered it from amazon yesterday. I also tried to join the IAM but due to Northern Ireland's idiotic and downright dangerous (for motorways) "R" driver scheme i am not eligible as i can only go 45mph for one year.....apparently.

I drive mainly in the city so i don't use it all the time, basically just on, as you were saying, A and B roads on a nice sunny dry day.

[mc_conor]

Yes Daschund what i was referring to was if i didn't heel/toe why i would have to brake slower to avoid the rear locking up and losing control at speed.

I have been practising heel/toe for a good while now and it's very satisying to hear the increased exhaust note combined with a silky smooth downshift.

I used to engine break as i was taught in my test but it's clearly in place as it's the simplist, safest thing to do at low speeds.

However as i move on to more powerful RWD cars i am trying to ensure, as you say, i don't wrap it round a tree and absorb as much driving knowledge as possible.

[BertBert]

mc_conor said:

I cannot seem to find any information that heel and toe is bad, in anyway for your car. Or am i incorrect?

The reason being is i have started doing this on a regular basis (once the engine is warmed up and can blip the throttle without worry), and do not want to create unnecessary wear and tear.

I much prefer driving in this way as it is a much smoother ride and keeps me in the correct gear without juddery engine breaking.

So if anyone could tell me what they know about this subject that would be great. Thanks in adavnce.

The absolute answer is that heel and toe must cause extra wear in some components. If you are DDC'ing as well, that's more wear too.

The useful answer is that it's negligable, not worth even considering.

It's an essential technique to have in the armoury of any self-respecting good/advanced driver/pistonheader. There is huge debate to its applicability, but that's a different question!

Bert

[Daschund]

mc_conor said:

Yes Daschund what i was referring to was if i didn't heel/toe why i would have to brake slower to avoid the rear locking up and losing control at speed.

I have been practising heel/toe for a good while now and it's very satisying to hear the increased exhaust note combined with a silky smooth downshift.

I used to engine break as i was taught in my test but it's clearly in place as it's the simplist, safest thing to do at low speeds.

However as i move on to more powerful RWD cars i am trying to ensure, as you say, i don't wrap it round a tree and absorb as much driving knowledge as possible.

Simplest approach: be smooth with the pedals.

The key to 'making progress' on British roads (i.e. driving fast, spritidly, with a purpose) is to be smooth.

Ease off the gas pedal slowly and smoothly, in plenty of time. Apply gentle braking pressure using the brakes. Slowly and smoothly firm up braking pressure until desired speed is required. Gradually ease off brakes, again in one smooth motion. Clutch in, select your needed gear. Match in your revs (blip or sustain, doesn't matter) using the gas. When revs have been achieved, feed out your clutch pedal, smoothly.

Get it right, you would have adjusted your speed correctly to the hazard, be traveling at the correct speed for the hazard, with the correct gear engaged, on the correct bit of the road.

The "correct gear" is going to be the one that will get you through the hazard (tighter corners, roundabouts, turning off from a road onto another one etc) and away from it with a degree of performance.

Invariabally, this is going to be second (2nd) gear for most cars.

Key is: be smooth.

It may seem SLOW, but think of it this way: slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

If you are driving smoothly, you will inherrently be driving faster than some ham-fisted oik.

[RobM77]

During heel and toe driving the clutch mechanism and cable are obviously going to be operated twice as often, so in theory these have a greater chance of wearing out. However, during H&T driving or rev matched the clutch and gearbox are going to wear an awful lot less, and the driveshafts will not get a shock during gearchanges either. Those components are far more expensive than the clutch actuating mechanism itself. I've used heel and toe in every gearchange I've ever made, and have never replaced a car's clutch; and that includes my racing cars, one of which ran a standard clutch with double the power from the engine!

I've never been convinced by the technique of rev matching by coming off the brake. It doesn't seem very safe to me to have your foot away from the brake when approaching a hazard or a corner. Personally, I'm much happier covering the brake all the way up to the bend/hazard and using heel and toe to change gear and keep me in the correct gear at all times, especially when turning in to the corner. If you're covering the brake, it's safer. Remember - accidents are caused by the unexpected, so you need to be prepared! Plus, to keep the car safely balanced and draw friction circles, one also needs to turn in as one comes off the brake; if those actions are separated (standard IAM technique) then one draws friction squares, so by nature one is closer to the limit at some times than others, which is obviously not as safe as drawing circles.

I've yet to meet anyone that doesn't heel and toe who drives as safely and smoothly as they could if they used heel and toe. Added to that, there's normally a whole lot of fuss and bother in people's driving caused by not heel and toeing, when it would be far simpler to just heel and toe. My advice is to do it, obviously only if you are proficient at it though.

[stefan1]

RobM77 said:

During heel and toe driving the clutch mechanism and cable are obviously going to be operated twice as often, so in theory these have a greater chance of wearing out.

You are confusing H&T with double de-clutching. If one H&Ts with a single declutch action then there is no difference to a normal gear change.

To the OP, the simple answer is "no". H&T just involves combining braking and downchanging; there is no extra wear compared to separating those two tasks, all else being equal.

Kind regards

Steve

[waremark]

RobM77 said:

During heel and toe driving the clutch mechanism and cable are obviously going to be operated twice as often

Cannot see why that would be. Are you talking about H & T when combined with double-declutching - two completely different techniques, which can be used seperately or together? Anyway, well executed H & T is a mechanically sympathetic technique.

I understand you are not keen on the Roadcraft technique of full seperation - finish braking smoothly, then change gear and back lightly on the gas as you turn in. However, this is an easier technique to teach and use safely, with an additional margin of safety because you have braked earlier, providing you have braked to a sufficiently low speed to be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. I accept that the safe speed with your right foot on the accelerator may be just a fraction slower than if your right foot is still on the brake, and I certainly agree that for a highly skilled driver swifter safe progress can be achieved using H & T.

Well done to the OP for rejecting the approach of changing down without rev matching. Given that the he is an inexperienced driver, I would suggest that full seperation is a more suitable technique to practise at this stage of his driving career than H & T.

[mc_conor]

Thanks waremark.

From the offset i felt that downshifting without rev matching was "wrong" for the car.

Basically since i've past my test i'm becoming more and more interested in driving/cars mechanics and am trying to improve my ability as i shouldn't really have been let on the road when i passed. Although from my brief 6 months driving experience i get the impression more and more that a considerable number of people shouldn't be driving, such as today for example:

1. Old woman in hyundai getz in front of me on the way home has both mirrors folded inwards and doesn't even notice, so much for observation.

2. Young woman in a clio trying to parallel park, long story short there is a large queue and she gives up.

3. Guy in toyota celica near side swipes me after changing into my lane without looking, forced to brake.

I consider myself relatively competent driver now, safer than some people on the road for years. But obviously i've still got to learn. I'll be joining IAM when i'm off these "R" plates anyway (which attract police like flies to sh*t).

I can see the dangers on heel and toe, such as foot slipping off the brake, and the potential damage that can be done. I practise usually on A and B roads leaving a large margin for error but i have become, well my impression anyway, at least adequate at the techinque.

My roadcraft book will be here hopefully tomorro so i can read about the techinque you guys were describing.

PS if you're just floating about a city centre and coming up to a red light at 20mph obviously H/T is over kill. Generally i just break until my rpm is abou 1600 and depress the clutch and put it into neutral and "coast" to a stop of 5-10 metres. Is this bad to do? What do you guys recommend?

[Daschund]

waremark said:

RobM77 said:

During heel and toe driving the clutch mechanism and cable are obviously going to be operated twice as often

Cannot see why that would be. Are you talking about H & T when combined with double-declutching - two completely different techniques, which can be used seperately or together? Anyway, well executed H & T is a mechanically sympathetic technique.

Perhaps Rob was referring to the number of gears taken?

With seperation, I would block-change (4th or 2nd, for example). With H+T, I can't get sufficient purchase on the gas pedal to 'blip' the throttle enough for a change 4-2. So I would often H+T twice, 4-3, 3-2.

In effect changing gears twice in preperation for the corner, as opposed to once.

So, technically, Rob is correct. However I believe such wear is so minimal, it isn't worth worrying about.

[Don]

RobM77 said:

I've yet to meet anyone that doesn't heel and toe who drives as safely and smoothly as they could if they used heel and toe. Added to that, there's normally a whole lot of fuss and bother in people's driving caused by not heel and toeing, when it would be far simpler to just heel and toe. My advice is to do it, obviously only if you are proficient at it though.

You haven't met me yet!

This subject always has a lot of myth and nonsense about it. I can drive to the system, rev matching AFTER braking. I can Heel and Toe, rev matching during braking.

The important thing is rev matching. If you do it right - YOU ARE REDUCING WEAR on your clutch.

Don't do it at all - you ARE increasing wear on your clutch. A bit...not that bad. IF you brake, change down and don't rev match you ARE wearing your clutch and may destabilise the drive wheels of your car - a bit. This will likely only cause a driving problem if you are in a RWD and pressing on - say on track. Not rev matching does reduce the smoothness of the change, though. Your passengers will love you for rev-matching - whichever way you do it.

Rev-match badly? You are likely increasing wear on your clutch beyond not doing it at all.

Again - people say on this site - H&T - you only need that on track. Sort of they are right...in terms of not destabilising the drive wheels and chucking your car off the road thereby. But H&T done smoothly and leisurely on road smooths out changes - which is nice for passenger comfort.

So. IMO - learn rev-matching. Do it using the System or do it using H&T but learn to do it and do it every change. Done right your clutch will last longer and your passengers will comment on your chauffeur-smooth ride. And you get the satisfaction. How bad is that?

[waremark]

mc_conor said:

PS if you're just floating about a city centre and coming up to a red light at 20mph obviously H/T is over kill. Generally i just break until my rpm is abou 1600 and depress the clutch and put it into neutral and "coast" to a stop of 5-10 metres. Is this bad to do? What do you guys recommend?

I consider it is good practise when slowing to a stop or near stop to stay in whatever gear you happen to be in as you brake, declutching just before the engine would labour. This is almost what you say you do, and if you are braking it is not 'coasting'. However, I would not take my hand off the wheel to put the car in neutral until I know what gear I will need to move away - then either straight to the appropriate gear (2nd or 1st) or if expecting a wait rather than a pause perhaps handbrake first and then into neutral.

[RobM77]

Apologies guys; coincidentally I'd been discussing double declutching the other day and got the two confused. With H&T you declutch once and just blip the throttle on the downchange.

[GreenV8S]

RobM77 said:

With H&T you declutch once and just blip the throttle on the downchange.

You can do clutchless, single or double declutch gear changes with or without H&T. H&T just means applying the brakes and throttle at the same time with the same foot, it doesn't say what you do with the clutch.