Is it because the driving instructors are rubbish?

[heebeegeetee]

jaf01uk said:

I have no idea what is meant by signal clutter but can only imagine that its the overuse and spurious use of indicators by the hard of thinking as mentioned previously?
The failsafe as in any part of the information phase is if someone comes into view at any point who will then benefit from a signal you apply it, encourages alertness,
Gary

But where is the fail-safe if you fail to see that other person, or if that other person proceeds on a course due to your lack of signal?

Personally, i will continue to signal, because it is not possible to be right all the time, you can only ever be wrong. Therefore, as my fail-safe, i will indicate. I see no point in not indicating, in normal circumstances.

I realise that the anally retentive amongst us will see me as a poor driver, but hey, i can definitely live with that. Not least of course because i will think they're wrong.

[BOF]

""But where is the fail-safe if you fail to see that other person, or if that other person proceeds on a course due to your lack of signal?""

There can be a few circumstances where you might not be aware that your signal, or absence of signal, might compromise safety.

Example...approaching a roundabout where some prick in the local Council has approved tall bushes, or road signs...so that you CANNOT adjust your systematic approach to the hazard by getting a clear look to your right...and trying to flow.

It is then YOUR judgement as to whether you will give a left indicator for your EXIT from the roundabout which may help traffic, as yet unseen...on the next entries to the roundabout?

In contrast to what might appear to be a kind of IAM mantra about NOT signalling...I try teach my punters, when joining A roads or Motorways...'You have a lot to look at here...gap? your speed? your gear?...lot to do?...get the flasher on - see and be seen early - one less thing to do as you merge?'

The nearest I can get is to describe it as is THINKING...

BOF

PS - I do not see you as analy retentive - any discussion on road safety is OK with me...

Edited by BOF on Thursday 7th August 19:04

[Big Fat F'r]

heebeegeetee said:

jaf01uk said:

heebeegeetee said:

I think the IAM contribute in a small way with their ethos of only indicating if there someone to indicate to (or something like that) instead of just indicating every time you turn, as though it is a legal requirement.

By allowing drivers to turn without indicating, lowers the importance that should be attached to indicating, imo.

Correct me if I'm wrong but does that not imply that you advocate the practice?
Regards,
Gary

Yes, but i hadn't even thought of the concept of doing it by rote. I hadn't even really thought that the concept could exist, because every junction is different and needs treating as such. But nevertheless, at least by always indicating, it would help prevent people from forgetting to indicate, which is what has clearly happened in the UK. That's why i ask when this clutter existed, 'cos i'm blowed if i can ever recall seeing it.

If by not indicating because you can't see anyone to indicate to, how can this possibly reduce clutter if there's no-one there to see it?

Last night i approached a T junction controlled by traffic lights in my vehicle, was turning right, couldn't see anyone to indicate to, due to buildings either side of the junction restricting the view. I indicated anyway. The moment i got into the middle of the junction a car to my right became visible and so i was glad that i was already indicating. Was i wrong to indicate?

Depends how you define wrong.

You may wish to ask yourself who was benefitting from the signal.

If you say you could not identify anyone who may benefit, but you decided to do it anyway, then hey ho.

BFF

[Daschund]

heebeegeetee said:

I think the IAM contribute in a small way with their ethos of only indicating if there someone to indicate to (or something like that) instead of just indicating every time you turn, as though it is a legal requirement.

By allowing drivers to turn without indicating, lowers the importance that should be attached to indicating, imo.

Although to expand upon that...

I was always taught "If in doubt, signal". I.e. if you are in any doubt that a signal is absolutely required - maybe the RAB has poor visibility and those approaching the RAB/on teh RAB may not see you until you are practically at the give-way line.

After all, if people indicate every time they approach a turn, how can they go wrong? Would make a change from those RAB warriors who drive up to a RAB without signalling, you're sat in your lane stationary waiting for them to do something (they coming from your right) and without warning they swing left and bugger off.

There I am, spending the best part of 10 seconds stationary thinking they are going straight ahead when, no, they went left.

10 seconds isn't a lot. But 30 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year and you just wanna shoot somebody.

[heebeegeetee]

Daschund said:

heebeegeetee said:

I think the IAM contribute in a small way with their ethos of only indicating if there someone to indicate to (or something like that) instead of just indicating every time you turn, as though it is a legal requirement.

By allowing drivers to turn without indicating, lowers the importance that should be attached to indicating, imo.

Although to expand upon that...

I was always taught "If in doubt, signal". I.e. if you are in any doubt that a signal is absolutely required - maybe the RAB has poor visibility and those approaching the RAB/on teh RAB may not see you until you are practically at the give-way line.

After all, if people indicate every time they approach a turn, how can they go wrong? Would make a change from those RAB warriors who drive up to a RAB without signalling, you're sat in your lane stationary waiting for them to do something (they coming from your right) and without warning they swing left and bugger off.

There I am, spending the best part of 10 seconds stationary thinking they are going straight ahead when, no, they went left.

10 seconds isn't a lot. But 30 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year and you just wanna shoot somebody.

Likewise when driving an articulated lorry and i want to keep it moving onto the roundabout, and i really would like to know where car on said roundabout is going.

We should be doing more to get people to use their indicators imo. Taking the option of not indicating if there's no-one to signal to is fine, but it must then follow that absolutely no-one can benefit from it so why worry about it? If being seen to be a thinking person is important to you, then grow a beard or smoke a pipe or whatever.

It shouldn't be that important to be regarded as a thinking sort of chap, nor whether people are thinking about indicating as such. This falls far behind the fact that hardly anyone out there is indicating at all, these days.

[Big Fat F'r]

Daschund said:

After all, if people indicate every time they approach a turn, how can they go wrong?

By getting it wrong and giving a misleading signal.

Obviously, you may claim that you don't get it wrong. Well that is what the other side claim as well.

Difficult, isn't it.

BFF

[BOF]

"If being seen to be a thinking person is important to you, then grow a beard or smoke a pipe or whatever.

It shouldn't be that important to be regarded as a thinking sort of chap, nor whether people are thinking about indicating as such."

You are not writing the scripts for Emmerdale or Eastenders perchance?

BOF.

[7mike]

"To my mind it's essential as a minimum to signal left if you're going left, right if you're passing junctions where people may be waiting to come out."

Some interesting view points have been expressed here on the neccesity or otherwise of signalling but no one seems to have mentioned the obvious flaw in the OP's statement above. I've trained older drivers who believe it is correct to indicate right past every exit, even when going straight ahead, before indicating left to exit. Just to clear things up for the OP, driving instructors teach learners in this situation; no signal on approach - left signal when passing the exit before the intended exit (after checking both the centre & left mirrors).

On more than one occasion this misleading use of the indicators turned out to be the root cause of road rage incidents described to me by trainees.

[7mike]

.....incidently, why is it that every time someone has a bee in their bonnet about some aspect of bad driving they immediately blame driving instructors. My spelling (like many others here) is less than perfect but I wouldn't suggest all English teachers are st!

[fastcaterham]

I learnt to drive only 3 years ago and my instructor and examiner were really hot on indicating correctly. I've also been exposed to the only indicate if you need to idea while on an advanced course but prefer just indicating all the time as its so simple to do you might as well incase theres sombody who you havn't seen or something.
Also on a side note the number of times I've nearly been run over while crossing close to the roundabout by my house by people who indicate right around the roundabout correctly but then don't indicate left off at their turning and instead just cancel their indicate. I think oh its self canceled hes carrying on round and then they come siling up and past you. Also the number of people who don't indicate at roundabouts but then inidicate round obstacles in the road that are perfectly visible annoys me, what do you think I havn't seen the massive bin lorry on the side of the road and need your indicator to alert me!!!

[Vaux]

heebeegeetee said:

Likewise when driving an articulated lorry and i want to keep it moving onto the roundabout, and i really would like to know where car on said roundabout is going.

Which is exactly a time when the driver should be indicating.
When you're sitting in your LGV, and you see a vehicle come into view with the indicator already flashing, do you take that as a sign to go? Maybe you might have a little more faith in it if you saw it come on after the driver had seen you?

[heebeegeetee]

Big Fat F'r said:

Last night i approached a T junction controlled by traffic lights in my vehicle, was turning right, couldn't see anyone to indicate to, due to buildings either side of the junction restricting the view. I indicated anyway. The moment i got into the middle of the junction a car to my right became visible and so i was glad that i was already indicating. Was i wrong to indicate?

Depends how you define wrong.

You may wish to ask yourself who was benefitting from the signal.



BFF

Anyone I can't see. Obviously, just because i can't see them doesn't mean they aren't there.

Vaux said:

heebeegeetee said:

Likewise when driving an articulated lorry and i want to keep it moving onto the roundabout, and i really would like to know where car on said roundabout is going.

Which is exactly a time when the driver should be indicating.
When you're sitting in your LGV, and you see a vehicle come into view with the indicator already flashing, do you take that as a sign to go? Maybe you might have a little more faith in it if you saw it come on after the driver had seen you?

I just want to know where they're going, so i can plan my approach.

And as Fastcaterham pointed out, it seems to be a thing amongst old people, to indicate right as they approach the Rab, which causes me to stop, and then as soon they've got on the Rab they indicate left and go straight on and i've stopped for nothing. If I'm fully loaded, it can sometimes be a few minutes before i can get a gap large enough for me to be able to pull onto the Rab.

[RobM77]

Failure to indicate correctly on roundabouts is one of my pet hates, because when you're sat waiting to join you need to know where people are going! Somewhere that I used to work suffered from this problem hugely.. The office was on a busy through road that led up to the M3, and to get to the office you turned right at this small roundabout. Every morning there was a massive queue because people coming off the M3 towards you sometimes went straight on, but sometimes turned right into another office building. The queue formed because no-one had any idea who was going straight on and who was turning right.

I think the blame has to lie partly with instructors and partly with the individual. It's a fun game to watch off duty driving instructors and how they drive. I don't know if it's their partners driving the car or something, but a large proportion of them don't seem to indicate properly!

As a training consultant, it's a classic problem where students have a lot to remember (the Highway Code), and people only remember bits. This is an issue with lane discipline too. Our usual solution (in corporate training at least) would be to shrink down the key points onto a quick reference card, and then have a bigger emphasis on those points in the theory or practical tests. The card would be far more likely to be read by a new driver than a dry and boring 100 page booklet. For card contents I would suggest: what to do at the scene of an accident, indication, lane discipline and use of lights. Speed limits are well enough advertised on roadside signs I think!

[Devil2575]

This is an interesting topic. I too hate people who don't indicate especially on roundabouts and even more so when they don't even use the correct lane on the roundabout. I watched a Micra go all the way round a roundabout the other day in the lefthand lane with no indication.

However to blame this kind of behaviour on the IOM seems a little bit daft. Are people perhaps just looking for an excuse to have a go and clutching at straws?

If I am driving along an open road and I approach a roundabout that is completely open i.e. I can see the roundabout and all possible entrances/exits to/from it clearly in advance then assuming there are no road users about including behind me, I will not indicate. This is not arrogance, this is observation. I know the road well and know that it is possible to determine well in advance with complete certainty that they roundabout is clear, therefore there is no need to indicate. Simple.

However as soon as I am in a situation where I can not be 100% certain due to me either not knowing the road or there being obstacles that prevent me from seeing other road users then I would always indicate. Better to be safe than sorry.

The key is though to observe and not simply indicate through habit.

This seems like common sense to me and I don't understand why some of you have a problem with it.

[DirtyHarry88]

Something that annoys me is people indicating right to go straight on.

[Martin A]

DirtyHarry88 said:

Something that annoys me is people indicating right to go straight on.

The reason people may do this is because it used to be what was written in the edition of The Highway Code, that was valid until late last year. Such behaviour was therefore 'correct' until the latest version of The Code was published in October 2007. Like many driving instructors I was asked for my views on what revisions should be made to The Code.

Previously the advice when taking the last exit (which may or may not have been straight on) was to signal right on approach, get into the right hand lane before the roundabout and then once on the roundabout signal left and move left after passing the exit before the last one. Things have now changed and what they are doing is now wrong. It may be that you were taught differently by your instructor but if you passed your test more than a year ago you will have been taught incorrectly. Not to worry though because your examiner may well not have known or thought it wrong either!

Drivers that didn't do this were leaving themselves open to being 'at fault' in event of an accident. In my opinion they have still not got it 'right' but what is there now is, by being in that publication, correct.

I used to make learners aware of the rules, how common practice was different and allow them as adults to make the decision on what to do, as those who followed The Highway Code were often failed. DSA on each occasion admitted they were wrong to fail the candidate but 'The result cannot be changed and here's a free test in 3 months time.'

I'm glad things have changed even if not quite to what I would like!

[supermono]

Martin A said:

DirtyHarry88 said:

Something that annoys me is people indicating right to go straight on.

The reason people may do this is because it used to be what was written in the edition of The Highway Code, that was valid until late last year.

Did it also say that if you were going straight on at a cross roads, you should indicate right on approach?

I honestly don't remember reading about indicating right when you're not turning right.

Anyhow the biggest problem in my view is failure to signal left or right when turning left or right. I don't think these are advanced drivers I'm talking about TBH and signalling when there's nobody to see it has nothing to do with it.

Saying that, there's a major roundabout near where I often cross the road as a pedestrian, and time and again these imbeciles will turn to their sharp left without signalling and nearly mow me down as I'm halfway across the road. Maybe these people think it's ok not to signal since there's no other car about to benefit from it?

SM

[Don]

So. Four pages in.

And the best and most accurate statement I've heard is that "lazy dumbfeckers can't be bothered".

My own 2p: It's not lazy dumbfeckers. Nope. It's inconsiderate, lazy fking numbnuts who are too stupid to work out when to put the fking indicator on, not because they are lazy (although they might be), but because they are THICK!

The instructors tell 'em until they are blue in the face when to put the indicator on. And in fact - at least once in their lives - they were able to drive for about an hour doing it mostly right. Ten minutes after the examiner got out of the car they forgot and have never bothered doing it again.

The corollary of this is that the only thing you can be sure of when you see an indicator on is that THE BULB IS WORKING! :rant:

[Martin A]

supermono said:

Martin A said:

DirtyHarry88 said:

Something that annoys me is people indicating right to go straight on.

The reason people may do this is because it used to be what was written in the edition of The Highway Code, that was valid until late last year.

Did it also say that if you were going straight on at a cross roads, you should indicate right on approach?

I honestly don't remember reading about indicating right when you're not turning right.



SM

The advice for indication and positioning was specifically for roundabouts not crossroads. It referred to 'the last exit' not 'an exit on the right' as is now the case.

Although some people look at The Highway Code before they take their driving test most seem to learn how to drive in a practical manner from their instructor rather than independent application of the theory and rarely read it again to refresh their knowledge let alone invest in a new edition once they have passed their test.

Few learners are going to think the instructor is giving them incorrect information, especially if most experienced full licence holders are doing it wrongly too. Anyway, unsurprisingly, many instructors can't remember all that is written in The Highway Code, so no disrespect, but I can quite believe that you might not too.

By the way the advice for dealing with roundabouts was different again in an earlier version of The Highway Code so many people will not have modified their habits since then. Leaving us in the situation that we are in now with drivers with conflicting habits inadvertently annoying those with different ideas.

It's a mess but until everyone, including those with foreign licences regularly updates and modifies their driving habits (i.e never) we good drivers will accept it as unchangeable and not let our frustration out on the road.