Golf club membership/numbers, etc
Discussion
I'm a member at what would be deemed (I think) one of the premium golf clubs in West Yorkshire, but things over the past couple of years seemed to caused me to whether to review my membership next year, however the obvious issue with that is meaning I need to join another club, which will likely again have considerable joining fees.
The issues being experienced include;
1. Difficulty in securing tee times on weekends (predominately Sunday)
2. Overall standard of course (particularly greens and tee boxes)
I joined the club 2020/2021 (I started playing golf near covid, as many did), and the course/club was a fantastic place. I looked at a number of options and it stood out above those others. Since then though it would 'seem' (I use this as aren't 100% sure) that membership levels have increased significantly, the number of member visitor rounds has increased significantly, and the money made from general visitors (mainly societies) has increased massively (according to published accounts).
I originally joined as a full 7 day member, but due to other commitments didn't play Saturdays, so on the back of a chat with the GM at the club, went down to 6 day membership as it they had a waiting list for 7 day membership from people who did want to play Saturdays. It wasn't a financial decision in any way, as probably saves me £150 a year max, which is nominal when you account for the membership cost, joining fee, locker cost & buggy store costs I pay/paid.
So, I'm a 6 day member, which effectively is telling the club I want to play Sundays, as if I didn't then I'd become a 5 day member obviously. That said, the booking system for the course opens at 7am 7 days prior to the day you wish to play, so for next Sunday I'd log on a 7am today. Generally by 7.15/7.30 there are no tee times available, or very few generally mid/late afternoon. For the sake of simplicity, lets assume there are tee times from 7am to 4pm, which at 8 minute intervals equates to 67 tee times. Each tee time can accomodate 4 players obviously, so thats 268 available spaces, however that again includes guests/societies, etc.
As said, I've written to the GM of the club asking a few things, being;
1. Membership levels (7 day, 6 day & others), for each year from 2020 to 2026
2. Details of guest visitor rounds, ie the clubs position on quantity/allowance, etc, as this has never really been communicated
3. The clubs position on society days
What has brought about this question is that looking ahead on the booking sheet for the next month or so, circa 40% of available tee times on Sunday's are already booked out, whether that to external/internal competitions, or to society visitors.
I'm of the opinion personally that if you pay considerable money per year to join a golf club, then you are in essence making a payment on account to know that you will have the ability to play that course. As such, 6 day members should be in a position whereby there is always an available tee time for them to play as they have effectively paid for it up front. If it is at a point where you can't, then whats the point ? If as mentioned above there are 268 tee times available, then 6 & 7 day members should not make up more than that number, and if they do then thats a fundamental issue.
I believe the club shouldn't allow societies to play on weekends if that means 6 & 7 day members cannot secure a tee time. The same to some degree should go for competitions (aside from the main Saturday one), and furthermore potentially that member guest be not allowed on premium weekend slots either.
I'd love to hear others golfers thoughts on this, as I'm coming up to that time of renewal and currently of the opinion that I won't be rejoining due to the issues experienced.
The issues being experienced include;
1. Difficulty in securing tee times on weekends (predominately Sunday)
2. Overall standard of course (particularly greens and tee boxes)
I joined the club 2020/2021 (I started playing golf near covid, as many did), and the course/club was a fantastic place. I looked at a number of options and it stood out above those others. Since then though it would 'seem' (I use this as aren't 100% sure) that membership levels have increased significantly, the number of member visitor rounds has increased significantly, and the money made from general visitors (mainly societies) has increased massively (according to published accounts).
I originally joined as a full 7 day member, but due to other commitments didn't play Saturdays, so on the back of a chat with the GM at the club, went down to 6 day membership as it they had a waiting list for 7 day membership from people who did want to play Saturdays. It wasn't a financial decision in any way, as probably saves me £150 a year max, which is nominal when you account for the membership cost, joining fee, locker cost & buggy store costs I pay/paid.
So, I'm a 6 day member, which effectively is telling the club I want to play Sundays, as if I didn't then I'd become a 5 day member obviously. That said, the booking system for the course opens at 7am 7 days prior to the day you wish to play, so for next Sunday I'd log on a 7am today. Generally by 7.15/7.30 there are no tee times available, or very few generally mid/late afternoon. For the sake of simplicity, lets assume there are tee times from 7am to 4pm, which at 8 minute intervals equates to 67 tee times. Each tee time can accomodate 4 players obviously, so thats 268 available spaces, however that again includes guests/societies, etc.
As said, I've written to the GM of the club asking a few things, being;
1. Membership levels (7 day, 6 day & others), for each year from 2020 to 2026
2. Details of guest visitor rounds, ie the clubs position on quantity/allowance, etc, as this has never really been communicated
3. The clubs position on society days
What has brought about this question is that looking ahead on the booking sheet for the next month or so, circa 40% of available tee times on Sunday's are already booked out, whether that to external/internal competitions, or to society visitors.
I'm of the opinion personally that if you pay considerable money per year to join a golf club, then you are in essence making a payment on account to know that you will have the ability to play that course. As such, 6 day members should be in a position whereby there is always an available tee time for them to play as they have effectively paid for it up front. If it is at a point where you can't, then whats the point ? If as mentioned above there are 268 tee times available, then 6 & 7 day members should not make up more than that number, and if they do then thats a fundamental issue.
I believe the club shouldn't allow societies to play on weekends if that means 6 & 7 day members cannot secure a tee time. The same to some degree should go for competitions (aside from the main Saturday one), and furthermore potentially that member guest be not allowed on premium weekend slots either.
I'd love to hear others golfers thoughts on this, as I'm coming up to that time of renewal and currently of the opinion that I won't be rejoining due to the issues experienced.
600 members? There should be lots of space.
There’s approx 750 members at our club, with 200+ of them single figures and therefore playing more often, and still there’s vast amounts of free tee times at weekends - generally Sunday quieter than Saturday.
Are you being particularly fussy about what time of day?
And if there’s a competition taking tee times, can you not join it to get a game in?
There’s approx 750 members at our club, with 200+ of them single figures and therefore playing more often, and still there’s vast amounts of free tee times at weekends - generally Sunday quieter than Saturday.
Are you being particularly fussy about what time of day?
And if there’s a competition taking tee times, can you not join it to get a game in?
oyster said:
600 members? There should be lots of space.
There s approx 750 members at our club, with 200+ of them single figures and therefore playing more often, and still there s vast amounts of free tee times at weekends - generally Sunday quieter than Saturday.
Are you being particularly fussy about what time of day?
And if there s a competition taking tee times, can you not join it to get a game in?
In respect of 'there should be lots of space', well the fact I'm writing this expressing the inability to get a physical tee time demonstrates otherwise, so 'no' I'm not being particularly fussy about timing.There s approx 750 members at our club, with 200+ of them single figures and therefore playing more often, and still there s vast amounts of free tee times at weekends - generally Sunday quieter than Saturday.
Are you being particularly fussy about what time of day?
And if there s a competition taking tee times, can you not join it to get a game in?
In respect of competitions, if I wanted to play them I would, but I don't, and they are mainly Saturdays aside from external ones which I couldn't enter if I wanted to.
Courser said:
Wouldn t be the first Premium club I ve heard of lately that put visitors contribution to their big yearly profit ahead of members interests.
I know a couple of members at Gullane that are mightily pissed off for this reason.
Gullane is obviously due to other reasons, location and its visitor base, but yes I'm sure they are equally annoyed by the situation, although I wish I paid what they do in annual subscriptions.I know a couple of members at Gullane that are mightily pissed off for this reason.
I have a friend recently moved to that area and was looking to join two clubs as would have still worked out cheaper than single membership around here.
Is it unreasonable for members to think if weekend tee times are at a premium (which they obviously are by the membership fees), that societies should be allowed on the club those days, and 'member visitor' rounds should potentially be stopped as well.
We do have the situation also whereby the tee times are booked instantly, but then last minute people cancel them or worse, don't even show up. Its obviously due to the difficulty in getting times that people just book something by default and then forgot or change their minds. Could the club introduce something to deal with this, ie if you choose 'guest' when making the booking you need to pay, if not in full they maybe 50% which is non refundable. This would help stop much of this I suspect. People just book a tee time under their name with 3 guests, to work out the details later, so half the time they aren't really guests who will be playing, but the system allows this without reprecussion.
Hobo said:
We do have the situation also whereby the tee times are booked instantly, but then last minute people cancel them or worse, don't even show up. Its obviously due to the difficulty in getting times that people just book something by default and then forgot or change their minds. Could the club introduce something to deal with this, ie if you choose 'guest' when making the booking you need to pay, if not in full they maybe 50% which is non refundable. This would help stop much of this I suspect. People just book a tee time under their name with 3 guests, to work out the details later, so half the time they aren't really guests who will be playing, but the system allows this without reprecussion.
My colleague said the same thing about tee times. Tries to book on a weekend and its blocked, but then turns upto the course and hardly anyonne playing.Understandable things happen and people cancel last min, but he says it constantly happens, no repercussions for people that dont turn up.
As such he is thinking of cancelling because what is the point of paying a membership fee when you cannot book a time
Im not a member and use a pay and play. We have to pay on booking, and while they are flexible if you need to change the day, there is no refunds.
Maybe join this golf club instead?
https://www.eligoclub.com/
Guaranteed access to tees with the top clubs.
I know a fellow parent who works for this Company i.e. his job is entertaining his clients which entails playing golf! Sounds great initially, but I guess he's pretty golfed out if he's playing on a daily basis.
https://www.eligoclub.com/
Guaranteed access to tees with the top clubs.
I know a fellow parent who works for this Company i.e. his job is entertaining his clients which entails playing golf! Sounds great initially, but I guess he's pretty golfed out if he's playing on a daily basis.
600 members doesn't sound excessive for a club with one course. If they're packing Sundays out with societies and guests then that's a different issue and worth having a moan about.
I suppose you either raise a fuss and complain to the powers that be, but better to have 30+ names on the bottom of your letter, or you take your money elsewhere.
I suppose you either raise a fuss and complain to the powers that be, but better to have 30+ names on the bottom of your letter, or you take your money elsewhere.
SpeckledJim said:
600 members doesn't sound excessive for a club with one course. If they're packing Sundays out with societies and guests then that's a different issue and worth having a moan about.
I suppose you either raise a fuss and complain to the powers that be, but better to have 30+ names on the bottom of your letter, or you take your money elsewhere.
I honestly don't think they should have societies on weekends, and they need to take a look at the 'guest/visitor' situation, and how to better handle it.I suppose you either raise a fuss and complain to the powers that be, but better to have 30+ names on the bottom of your letter, or you take your money elsewhere.
As for numbers on my letter, unfortunately whilst its not just me, its only a small number, but will certainly be something I intend to bring up at the AGM in a months time when the room is full, and can no doubt gauge the reaction then.
I really don't want to move club as think it could be great, but to achieve that means fewer rounds being played, which means higher fees for those members still wishing to play. Personally I'd be ok with that, as see other local clubs which have restricted membership but charge a considerably higher joining fee, and the difference in the condition of the greens, tee boxes and bunkers is night and day. The members can also get on when they want to.
I'm genuinely not sure yet what to do. I'm making my opinion known, see what the responses are, and will decide in December when I need to advise them formally. Its certainly dropped in enjoyment though considerably over the past 12 months for a number of reasons, including tee time availability, condition of tee boxes (unlevel), greens (more and more pitch marks not being repaired), pace of play (struggle to get around in under 4 hours now as a 4 ball), and once its in your head its obviously hard to shake, and the direction of travel seems one way, so without some confidence the club is going to make a change then it seens a decision is half made.
Hobo said:
SpeckledJim said:
600 members doesn't sound excessive for a club with one course. If they're packing Sundays out with societies and guests then that's a different issue and worth having a moan about.
I suppose you either raise a fuss and complain to the powers that be, but better to have 30+ names on the bottom of your letter, or you take your money elsewhere.
I honestly don't think they should have societies on weekends, and they need to take a look at the 'guest/visitor' situation, and how to better handle it.I suppose you either raise a fuss and complain to the powers that be, but better to have 30+ names on the bottom of your letter, or you take your money elsewhere.
As for numbers on my letter, unfortunately whilst its not just me, its only a small number, but will certainly be something I intend to bring up at the AGM in a months time when the room is full, and can no doubt gauge the reaction then.
I really don't want to move club as think it could be great, but to achieve that means fewer rounds being played, which means higher fees for those members still wishing to play. Personally I'd be ok with that, as see other local clubs which have restricted membership but charge a considerably higher joining fee, and the difference in the condition of the greens, tee boxes and bunkers is night and day. The members can also get on when they want to.
I'm genuinely not sure yet what to do. I'm making my opinion known, see what the responses are, and will decide in December when I need to advise them formally. Its certainly dropped in enjoyment though considerably over the past 12 months for a number of reasons, including tee time availability, condition of tee boxes (unlevel), greens (more and more pitch marks not being repaired), pace of play (struggle to get around in under 4 hours now as a 4 ball), and once its in your head its obviously hard to shake, and the direction of travel seems one way, so without some confidence the club is going to make a change then it seens a decision is half made.
The club has to balance member-satisfaction with welcoming high-margin societies, and striking that balance is difficult. Especially if they say 'OK, no societies at weekends....but to cover the financial shortfall your membership is going up £250 a year.'
SpeckledJim said:
Sounds like you've made your mind up. Sub 4 hours for a fourball is hard to find anywhere now though, especially at weekends unless you're off at 7am.
The club has to balance member-satisfaction with welcoming high-margin societies, and striking that balance is difficult. Especially if they say 'OK, no societies at weekends....but to cover the financial shortfall your membership is going up £250 a year.'
Personally, I'd be ok with that, and would like the club to go that exact route, ie increase fees and reduce numbers. As a result the course is in better condition, and you can actually get to play it.The club has to balance member-satisfaction with welcoming high-margin societies, and striking that balance is difficult. Especially if they say 'OK, no societies at weekends....but to cover the financial shortfall your membership is going up £250 a year.'
Assume you play 75 times a year, which is twice a week during peak season and once a week on average the rest of the time. That equates to an increase of £3 per round, which is the cost of a decent golf ball these days.
I'd probably go a little higher if I were honest (and significantly increase the joining fee), as they are hardly struggling for membership at the current rates obviously.
Well, just as a little update, the club did come back to me about membership and Sundays in particular.
Over the past four years 6 day membership has increased from 120 to 200, so thats in reality those wishing to play Sundays isn't it.
In relation to guests, the club has said it has no limit on guest (with member) rounds as long as they are members at another club. If not it is limited to 7 times a year, although they have acknowledged as I pointed out that this information is never checked so its in reality a pointless rule, and fundamentally guests can therefore bring any many people as they want on whatever day/s their membership covers.
Over the past four years 6 day membership has increased from 120 to 200, so thats in reality those wishing to play Sundays isn't it.
In relation to guests, the club has said it has no limit on guest (with member) rounds as long as they are members at another club. If not it is limited to 7 times a year, although they have acknowledged as I pointed out that this information is never checked so its in reality a pointless rule, and fundamentally guests can therefore bring any many people as they want on whatever day/s their membership covers.
We are about 700 ish members and operate a 2 week booking window. - It's just about do-able on a Sunday morning - it does get busy in the winter as sunrise hits, but if you are keen, you can have the pick of the times.
It is frustrating when people either book and no-show - or cancel 10 minutes before their slot. The pro shop are reasonably hot on keeping an eye on it and we recently introduced the requirement for people to "check in" on arrival with the shop which has significantly improved this issue.
One might suggest that if the problem is getting in early to snag the pick of the tee times, then a simple bit of code and an AI to help you write it can build something that automatically books your favourite slot every week 5 seconds after the booking window opens.....(Definitely not what I have running......)
It is frustrating when people either book and no-show - or cancel 10 minutes before their slot. The pro shop are reasonably hot on keeping an eye on it and we recently introduced the requirement for people to "check in" on arrival with the shop which has significantly improved this issue.
One might suggest that if the problem is getting in early to snag the pick of the tee times, then a simple bit of code and an AI to help you write it can build something that automatically books your favourite slot every week 5 seconds after the booking window opens.....(Definitely not what I have running......)
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