Rugy Union, law question
Discussion
Forward pass.
Player running with the ball, does long looping pass. Receiver is level with passer.
Receiver takes pass when still level with passer but at least four yards forwards of where it left the hands of the passer.
Would it make any difference if the passer went into touch immediately after passing.
No guesses, please. I've had more than enough already today.
Derek
Player running with the ball, does long looping pass. Receiver is level with passer.
Receiver takes pass when still level with passer but at least four yards forwards of where it left the hands of the passer.
Would it make any difference if the passer went into touch immediately after passing.
No guesses, please. I've had more than enough already today.
Derek
Level four rugby match, the ref assessor is in the electronic control room (PA, scorer and video camera (this last me)). The other side's player comes to virtually half way line and passes to his right. The passer carries on running, although foot went into touch. The ball more or less stays level with him, dropping back only slightly. The receiver, less than a pace behind, takes the pass three steps later. Ref fails to blow.
All these circumstances were agreed, apart from the foot into touch. Later perusal of the video shows it to be correct.
I mention this to the assessor who says it is a 'common fallacy' of those who are not professional referees.
I was quite surprised. If he's right then it is a fairly common fallacy of referees as well.
I don't mind being proved wrong, that's happened too often in the past for it to worry me, but it seems to me the law is quite cler on the matter. In a rather animated discussion later - we won against the team immediately above us - nothing was resolved.
All these circumstances were agreed, apart from the foot into touch. Later perusal of the video shows it to be correct.
I mention this to the assessor who says it is a 'common fallacy' of those who are not professional referees.
I was quite surprised. If he's right then it is a fairly common fallacy of referees as well.
I don't mind being proved wrong, that's happened too often in the past for it to worry me, but it seems to me the law is quite cler on the matter. In a rather animated discussion later - we won against the team immediately above us - nothing was resolved.
BigBob said:
Thanks for the link. That bears out what the assessor said. However, what brought it up was that the previous week a referee had blown up for a forward pass when the passer ran into touch just after throwing the pass.I know railing against lack of consistency is pointless.
BigBob said:
That seems to imply that if you throw the ball forwards over a standing opponent, so long as you can run fast enough to keep up with it, perhaps catching it behind your back to make it clear, then it's not a knock on?IRB rules said:
A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.
http://www.irblaws.com/EN/laws/3/12/111/during-the-match/knock-on-or-throw-forward/definition-throw-forward/#clause_111sharpfocus said:
Think you're on a slightly different subject there. A pass to someone else could be a forward pass. If the ball travels forward from your hand/arm it's a knock on - unless you recover control of it before it hits the ground.There may be specific rules covering this I'm not sure but do seem to remember that Gavin Henson used to use a trick where he'd 'knee' the ball forward (in the manner of a 'chip') in the air and catch it again and seem to remember hearing it was later outlawed.
Cor!!! Listen to me - A former Tight-head expounding on Laws of the game
Must be getting old.BB
BigBob said:
Think you're on a slightly different subject there. A pass to someone else could be a forward pass. If the ball travels forward from your hand/arm it's a knock on - unless you recover control of it before it hits the ground.
I think the rules are the same though, just where it ends up that differs, at least that's what that URL itself seems to imply.whats the relevance of the passer being in touch. irblaws are really very clear, as someone else says, if at the point of passing the ball travels towards your oponents dead ball line then its a forward pass, no ifs, no buts.
Irrelevant where the passer ends up going after the ball has left his hand- link above is pretty clear!
Irrelevant where the passer ends up going after the ball has left his hand- link above is pretty clear!
pugwash4x4 said:
whats the relevance of the passer being in touch. irblaws are really very clear, as someone else says, if at the point of passing the ball travels towards your oponents dead ball line then its a forward pass, no ifs, no buts.
Irrelevant where the passer ends up going after the ball has left his hand- link above is pretty clear!
So why did the referee's assessor say that it is not a forward pass?Irrelevant where the passer ends up going after the ball has left his hand- link above is pretty clear!
Egg Chaser said:
He's either blind or an idiot.
Not blind. He agreed that the receiver took the ball two yards (he might not be able to measure, it was more like four) in front of where the passer let it go. It was obvious to all - my hut is on the half way line, the passer was running towards it when he made the pass, the receiver was running away from it when he caught it. That's when the discussion started.The ref didn't blow and I just said: Blatent foward pass there. The assessor said it was a common misconception.
I don't mind which it is. What gets me is that there is no clear directive from the RFU apart, it would appear, from to their refs.
Have been thinking about this quite a lot.
Technically it IS a forward pass, but if both players are moving forwards at speed, then the ball might not have travelled forward relative to the two of them- and that's the key bit- a forward pass only occurs if the ball is passed forward relative to the passer.
the ball will not have been "passed" forward, but will travel forward because it has its own forward momentum, because its moving at the same speeed as the runner- ie 25mph!
Technically it IS a forward pass, but if both players are moving forwards at speed, then the ball might not have travelled forward relative to the two of them- and that's the key bit- a forward pass only occurs if the ball is passed forward relative to the passer.
the ball will not have been "passed" forward, but will travel forward because it has its own forward momentum, because its moving at the same speeed as the runner- ie 25mph!
pugwash4x4 said:
Technically it IS a forward pass
Stop there! 
I think it's a total can of worms otherwise. You could pass forwards from a static position and then leg it up the pitch to make it legal. You could be making a 'legal forward pass' and then a slightly late tackle sends you backwards and suddenly it's not legal. And I'm yet to see anything written that says otherwise.
Kermit power said:
pugwash4x4 said:
whats the relevance of the passer being in touch.
That's the bit that I don't get either. Surely if he's already released the pass before going into touch, then he's no longer relevant to play, is he?TBH - I have always thought of it as: the offence is the 'pass' being forward rather than the ball travelling forward, if you see what I mean. ie if the receiver is ahead of the passer when the ball is passed it is a forward pass.
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