Gearbox Oil: What's The Consensus?
Discussion
Luke,
Over the 10 years I have owned my Esprit, I have used pretty much everything (I replace the gearbox oil annually). I have used petroleum lube, Mobil 1 and Redline MT-90. By far, I would say the MT-90 has given me the greatest performance. It's spendy and difficult to get (not sold locally), but the box runs quiet, synchros are crisp. I bought the car w/ 16k mi. on it. I rebuilt the gearbox at 45k mi. replacing the synchros (because I was in there, rather than due to a problem). The old synchros showed virtually no wear, when checked visually but also when dimentioned with a micrometer. So much so, that I have saved them should I have a synchro go in the future, or should they become unavailable. I attribute this primarily to the RedLine I have used for most of the car's life. Not to mention my excellent driving skills...
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
Over the 10 years I have owned my Esprit, I have used pretty much everything (I replace the gearbox oil annually). I have used petroleum lube, Mobil 1 and Redline MT-90. By far, I would say the MT-90 has given me the greatest performance. It's spendy and difficult to get (not sold locally), but the box runs quiet, synchros are crisp. I bought the car w/ 16k mi. on it. I rebuilt the gearbox at 45k mi. replacing the synchros (because I was in there, rather than due to a problem). The old synchros showed virtually no wear, when checked visually but also when dimentioned with a micrometer. So much so, that I have saved them should I have a synchro go in the future, or should they become unavailable. I attribute this primarily to the RedLine I have used for most of the car's life. Not to mention my excellent driving skills...
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TENot to start the whole transmission oil debate again, but Jim has a Citroen box and I have a Renault box. The shop manual for Renault boxes says, and I quote (including caps):
refill ONLY WITH MOBIL SHC 630M up to the level plug hole (approx. 3 litres).
This is available at Graingers supply in the US. Don't know where you are.
Dr.Hess
refill ONLY WITH MOBIL SHC 630M up to the level plug hole (approx. 3 litres).
This is available at Graingers supply in the US. Don't know where you are.
Dr.Hess
Dr.Hess said:
Not to start the whole transmission oil debate again, but Jim has a Citroen box and I have a Renault box. The shop manual for Renault boxes says, and I quote (including caps):
refill ONLY WITH MOBIL SHC 630M up to the level plug hole (approx. 3 litres).
This is available at Graingers supply in the US. Don't know where you are.
Dr.Hess
Doc.,
Again not to start the debate anew, please realize that the Lotus spec is:
a.) 16 years old (did they even have RedLine MT-90 then? did Lotus/Renault even test it in this Box?)
b.) Often the recommended consumables are simply a carryover from the Box's manufacturer (Citroen, Renault), or simply using an existing supplier to fill these new needs without any testing of alternate products.
c.) The result of a Sweetheart relationship with the consumables manufacturer, in this case MOBIL. Maybe they offered the best price, or agreed to carry some of the warranty burden in order to increase their market share.
d.) Many spec'd consumables are designed to give good results through the warranty period, as the tranny ages and wears, other products may work better.
I know of many Renault Box owners who swear by RedLine as do I. Several of them are running the max torque, max HP, or Race chip along with Turbo and injector upgrades, in other words extreme operating conditions.
Admittedly, all the evidence, including the use of Mobil is anecdotal. Also, you will most certainly not hurt the box using the spec fluid, but that isn't necessarily axhieving maximum performance or longevity. Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
karmavore said:
I can buy redline locally, how much do I need? Also, any thoughs on Royal Purple?
Thanks man!!!!
Luke.
Luke,
I know of two instances where Esprit owners used Royal Purple. In each case, I became aware of it when they contacted me with tranny failures. I realize that there isn't necessarily any cause and effect, but these are the only two I know of. Draw whatever conclusion you will from this experience. Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
I've been using the Royal Purple for the last few months with no problems to date and shifting has been ok.
I tried MT 90 and my tranny immediately began leaking like a sieve where there were no leaks previous.
Not to stir up a debate but my Lotus Service notes ('93-97MY) state:
"Lotus strongly recommends that for optimum protection under the most arduous conditions, combined with good cold shift performance, only CASTROL TAF-X (Lotus Part #A082F6552S)is used in the transmission. If the car is operated in continuously very low ambient temperatures, Mobil SHC 75W/90 may be used."
FWIW, I very recently personally asked Dave Simkin of Lotus if there were any products other than CASTROL TAF-X that were approved by Lotus for the gearbox and he replied an emphatic NO! He said they had done extensive testing with several of the fluids that have been mentioned on the boards and CASTROL is the only one approved for the US. This also includes any Mobil products.
I will be changing to the CASTROL TAF-X in the near future.....
Another tidbit, someone posted on the Elan forum that CASTROL Syntorq LT (US product) is the same as the TAF-X (European product), but I was unable to confirm that with Castrol. The tech I spoke with said there were some differences but didn't know exactly what they were. Syntorq LT is available through GM and Chrysler dealers.
Jim
95 S4s
I tried MT 90 and my tranny immediately began leaking like a sieve where there were no leaks previous.
Not to stir up a debate but my Lotus Service notes ('93-97MY) state:
"Lotus strongly recommends that for optimum protection under the most arduous conditions, combined with good cold shift performance, only CASTROL TAF-X (Lotus Part #A082F6552S)is used in the transmission. If the car is operated in continuously very low ambient temperatures, Mobil SHC 75W/90 may be used."
FWIW, I very recently personally asked Dave Simkin of Lotus if there were any products other than CASTROL TAF-X that were approved by Lotus for the gearbox and he replied an emphatic NO! He said they had done extensive testing with several of the fluids that have been mentioned on the boards and CASTROL is the only one approved for the US. This also includes any Mobil products.
I will be changing to the CASTROL TAF-X in the near future.....
Another tidbit, someone posted on the Elan forum that CASTROL Syntorq LT (US product) is the same as the TAF-X (European product), but I was unable to confirm that with Castrol. The tech I spoke with said there were some differences but didn't know exactly what they were. Syntorq LT is available through GM and Chrysler dealers.
Jim
95 S4s
Hey Jim,
Yeah, not to get into the gearbox oil debate again... But... I agree with your statements regarding the selection methods frequently used with manufacturers. Also, they will frequently select oils based on corporate fuel economy (CAFE) so they can sell 8MPG Z06's. Of course, Lotus would never do any of those nasty things...
OK, seriously, though, I use MT-90 in my Truck and it is truely wonderful stuff. Makes my Truck shift much better. It only has just over a quarter million miles on it and I drive it 80 miles a day.
When I bought my Esprit (which I towed home to Arkansas from Silicon Valley with the above mentioned Truck with the MT-90 in it), it had a C service done out there (won't mention where) with a lube replacement <20K miles before I bought it. I have the receipt. It doesn't say what kind of lube they put in, but even though we were still getting to know each other, I felt the tranny was not shifting right and I was going to go with the MT-90. I decided to go the Mobil 1 instead, just because that is what the book says and I could get it locally (Graingers.) The stuff that came out was definetly not the same as the stuff that went in. Old stuff smelled like classic gear oil, Mobil 1 does not. My shifting is now much improved over what it had been. And I mean much. Also, you can go to the Mobile web site and look at the specs/applications for the 630 stuff, and it is very impressive. I seriously doubt other automotive gear oils can meet those specs.
Dr.Hess
Yeah, not to get into the gearbox oil debate again... But... I agree with your statements regarding the selection methods frequently used with manufacturers. Also, they will frequently select oils based on corporate fuel economy (CAFE) so they can sell 8MPG Z06's. Of course, Lotus would never do any of those nasty things...
OK, seriously, though, I use MT-90 in my Truck and it is truely wonderful stuff. Makes my Truck shift much better. It only has just over a quarter million miles on it and I drive it 80 miles a day.
When I bought my Esprit (which I towed home to Arkansas from Silicon Valley with the above mentioned Truck with the MT-90 in it), it had a C service done out there (won't mention where) with a lube replacement <20K miles before I bought it. I have the receipt. It doesn't say what kind of lube they put in, but even though we were still getting to know each other, I felt the tranny was not shifting right and I was going to go with the MT-90. I decided to go the Mobil 1 instead, just because that is what the book says and I could get it locally (Graingers.) The stuff that came out was definetly not the same as the stuff that went in. Old stuff smelled like classic gear oil, Mobil 1 does not. My shifting is now much improved over what it had been. And I mean much. Also, you can go to the Mobile web site and look at the specs/applications for the 630 stuff, and it is very impressive. I seriously doubt other automotive gear oils can meet those specs.
Dr.Hess
"Specific applications include:
Filled for life gearboxes, especially high ratio/low-efficiency worm gears
Remotely located gearboxes, where oil change-out is difficult
Low and high temperature applications
Severe centrifuge applications, including marine centrifuges "
... and Lotus Esprits? Where did the recommendation for this oil come from, originally?
Luke.
Filled for life gearboxes, especially high ratio/low-efficiency worm gears
Remotely located gearboxes, where oil change-out is difficult
Low and high temperature applications
Severe centrifuge applications, including marine centrifuges "
... and Lotus Esprits? Where did the recommendation for this oil come from, originally?
Luke.
Ok...here we go,
One very important thing to remember is that this Box is a transaxel and not just a gearbox. Typically, a differential uses a completely different lube than the gearbox. Compressibility is a key factor in Diff. lubes. On the other hand, viscosity, temperature stability and the lube's 'slipperyness' are important qualities in a gearbox lube. There are fine products available for both.
But with the Esprit, whether Citroen or Renault, any fluid used is a compromise between those qualities required by the differential (CW&P) and the gears, synchros etc.
Fact is, there really arent't any fluids out there possessing optimum qualities for each. Use a fluid not readily compressible (high sulphur content - the typical smell Doc Hess refers to) and the CW&P will last forever, but the soft metal synchros will react with the sulphur compounds, won't bite as well and the car will shift poorly. Use a readily compressible fluid (low Sulphur content) and the synchros will last longer, work better and shifting will be improved, but it's a'dios Señor CW&P at about 150-200K mi. Given this, most people will opt for the fluid which allows their car to shift it's best, unless of course leaks develop and you can't keep it in the Box.
As has already been mentioned, use a top quality fluid and change it every couple years or so to strike the best balance available. Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
>> Edited by lotusguy on Thursday 10th June 13:49
>> Edited by lotusguy on Thursday 10th June 13:54
One very important thing to remember is that this Box is a transaxel and not just a gearbox. Typically, a differential uses a completely different lube than the gearbox. Compressibility is a key factor in Diff. lubes. On the other hand, viscosity, temperature stability and the lube's 'slipperyness' are important qualities in a gearbox lube. There are fine products available for both.
But with the Esprit, whether Citroen or Renault, any fluid used is a compromise between those qualities required by the differential (CW&P) and the gears, synchros etc.
Fact is, there really arent't any fluids out there possessing optimum qualities for each. Use a fluid not readily compressible (high sulphur content - the typical smell Doc Hess refers to) and the CW&P will last forever, but the soft metal synchros will react with the sulphur compounds, won't bite as well and the car will shift poorly. Use a readily compressible fluid (low Sulphur content) and the synchros will last longer, work better and shifting will be improved, but it's a'dios Señor CW&P at about 150-200K mi. Given this, most people will opt for the fluid which allows their car to shift it's best, unless of course leaks develop and you can't keep it in the Box.
As has already been mentioned, use a top quality fluid and change it every couple years or so to strike the best balance available. Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
>> Edited by lotusguy on Thursday 10th June 13:49
>> Edited by lotusguy on Thursday 10th June 13:54
Hey Jim,
Have you used the Castrol in your car and if so, how did it compare to the others you've used?
I don't know what the PO had in my car when I bought it but the MT 90 did make a big improvement in the shifting. It was just quite a bit thinner and started leaking as I stated before.
Sure would like to know if the Syntorq LT is the same as the TAF-X since I've found a place I can buy it in bulk 5 gal cans relatively cheap.......
Jim K
Have you used the Castrol in your car and if so, how did it compare to the others you've used?
I don't know what the PO had in my car when I bought it but the MT 90 did make a big improvement in the shifting. It was just quite a bit thinner and started leaking as I stated before.
Sure would like to know if the Syntorq LT is the same as the TAF-X since I've found a place I can buy it in bulk 5 gal cans relatively cheap.......
Jim K
JK1 said:
Hey Jim,
Have you used the Castrol in your car and if so, how did it compare to the others you've used?
I don't know what the PO had in my car when I bought it but the MT 90 did make a big improvement in the shifting. It was just quite a bit thinner and started leaking as I stated before.
Sure would like to know if the Syntorq LT is the same as the TAF-X since I've found a place I can buy it in bulk 5 gal cans relatively cheap.......
Jim K
Jim,
I used Castrol when I first got the car (16k mi. from new), although I cannot remember what type, I'm fairly certain I used the recommended fluid.
Being new to the car, and having some shifting difficulties (which later turned out to be cable adjustments), I switched first to Mobil 1 (18k mi.), then to the Redline (30k mi.) in an effort to mitigate the problem. About that same time, I discovered I needed a new crossgate cable properly adjusted.
While the new, properly adjusted cable was the trick, I had noticed improvement, albeit slight, from the Mobil 1 over the Castrol and again with the Redline over the Mobil 1.
When I took the Box apart at 45k mi. to replace the synchros, not only did I find them to be near perfect (as compared to the new synchros and dimensioned w/ a mic.), but I found virtually no wear to either the gears or the CW&P. Since the Redline provided the best shifting and quietest Box with apparently superior protection to the metal parts, I became a true convert to the stuff. Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
Well, last I spoke with Dave Simkin at the end of 2003, he told me to use Mobil SHC630 in the gearbox. This is what I am using and while I still have a bad clutch the synchros aren't being ground up as much as they were with Mobil 1 75/90 synthetic gearlube (put in by dealer with remanufactured gearbox under warranty) or the Redline MT-90. It is also recommended by Derek Bell (the one who has the UN-1 upgrade kit) as an earlier email I received from him said the Redline is good stuff, but he would not use it in the renault box, the Mobil SHC630 is the proper lube.
So who should we believe at this point.... as my car is out of warranty and I'm doing serious work to correct many problems (aka serious $$ as well), I'm sticking with the Mobile SHC630.
Regards, KM
2000 V8
So who should we believe at this point.... as my car is out of warranty and I'm doing serious work to correct many problems (aka serious $$ as well), I'm sticking with the Mobile SHC630.
Regards, KM
2000 V8
kmaier said:Deja vu.
So who should we believe at this point.... as my car is out of warranty and I'm doing serious work to correct many problems (aka serious $$ as well), I'm sticking with the Mobile SHC630.
We had this conversation before. What can I say? In Jan '04, LCU was telling Ralph Stechow to use the Castrol stuff.
I shot an e-mail off to Dave. If I have the address right, maybe he'll tell us The Word.
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