Brakes...and more brakes....
Discussion
I have a 93.5 SE. Just drove a 91 SE this afternoon (Ron Earp's, it is FAST FAST FAST). Besides the added power of the chip, exhaust and better turbo, the main difference for me was the brakes. FIRM pedal. Instant on feel -- brakes were there as soon as got on them.
This is far better than the mushy feel (yes, I have bled them and steel hoses are next), slow to bite brakes on my 93.5. Calipers and pads (Greenstuffs) are the same, so what gives? Is the ABS system on the car responsible for that much difference in feel????
This is far better than the mushy feel (yes, I have bled them and steel hoses are next), slow to bite brakes on my 93.5. Calipers and pads (Greenstuffs) are the same, so what gives? Is the ABS system on the car responsible for that much difference in feel????
Unbelievable....Jim, thanks.
And not so happy motoring with those brakes. I'm envious, the non-ABS setup is MUCH better for the track, and the street. It actually gives you some indication of what it is doing.
By the way, Ron has managed to build an Esprit that pulls like a freaking muscle car. Amazing power, and as low as 3.5k. Very nice. I would suggest that anyone who wants to make reliable poweron an SE talk to him. He's done it.
And not so happy motoring with those brakes. I'm envious, the non-ABS setup is MUCH better for the track, and the street. It actually gives you some indication of what it is doing.
By the way, Ron has managed to build an Esprit that pulls like a freaking muscle car. Amazing power, and as low as 3.5k. Very nice. I would suggest that anyone who wants to make reliable poweron an SE talk to him. He's done it.
JeffYoung said:
Unbelievable....Jim, thanks.
And not so happy motoring with those brakes. I'm envious, the non-ABS setup is MUCH better for the track, and the street. It actually gives you some indication of what it is doing.
By the way, Ron has managed to build an Esprit that pulls like a freaking muscle car. Amazing power, and as low as 3.5k. Very nice. I would suggest that anyone who wants to make reliable poweron an SE talk to him. He's done it.
Hi,
ABS brakes were produced to keep average to less than average drivers from locking up the brakes in a panic and smashing into someone/something by retaining steering control allowing the driver to maneuver away from the accident. It literally dilutes driver input and feedback.
It will aid a poor driver, but hamper a good one. A good driver can stop a car in less distance with standard brakes than ABS.
According to Insurance statistics however, they have not seen a reduction in accidents with ABS equipped brakes vs standard brakes. This is because the very people it was intended to assist don't react well in a panic. They freeze like deer in the headlights, grip the wheel for all it's worth and hang on rather than maneuvering. I know of several late model Esprit owners who've disabled their ABS or replaced the system entirely. Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
>> Edited by lotusguy on Tuesday 3rd August 07:20
lotusguy said:Count me as one of those who disabled that piece of crap Powermaster III ABS system. That thing was more likely to have gotten me into an accident than save me from one. In fact, 2 weeks ago, when a woman in front of me decided to slam on her brakes for no apparent reason (other than to piss me off), it was my disabled ABS that spared me from running into her back end.
I know of several late model Esprit owners who've disabled their ABS or replaced the system entirely. Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
my S4S brakes work fairly well now that the accumulator is ok. the pedal feel is hard and instant and you can modulate the braking very well. At my recent driving school ( BMW club) my instructor took the wheel for a few laps and he raved about the pedal feel. Since the ABS system controls the pressure you step on the pedal then it barely moves, as you apply pressure the pump boosts the pressure also and you get the feeling that the pedal has not moved at all.... Great for heel and toeing and keeping your position behind the wheel.
Overall the system does work well. But when ABS is going to kick in you better be ready to move your leg, the pedal jumps half an inch to the floor and if you dont follow the pedal down, you suddenly have no brakes at all... and you speed forward. It takes some getting used to and probably increases the stopping distance. To stop quickly you have to really throw your foot into it and then it is OK. That is if you reach the threshold. If you can keep from locking then the system is great. But the ability to steer if you reach the slip condition is something i dont want to give up yet. The car is so fast that I often get into a "holy cow" situtaion and although the ABS is kinda crap, i have definetly used the ability to still steer. i never fool around in traffic (city streets) without a spare lane around, it it way to risky!!
I think that driver training is still the best go-fast money you can spend.
Bruce
Overall the system does work well. But when ABS is going to kick in you better be ready to move your leg, the pedal jumps half an inch to the floor and if you dont follow the pedal down, you suddenly have no brakes at all... and you speed forward. It takes some getting used to and probably increases the stopping distance. To stop quickly you have to really throw your foot into it and then it is OK. That is if you reach the threshold. If you can keep from locking then the system is great. But the ability to steer if you reach the slip condition is something i dont want to give up yet. The car is so fast that I often get into a "holy cow" situtaion and although the ABS is kinda crap, i have definetly used the ability to still steer. i never fool around in traffic (city streets) without a spare lane around, it it way to risky!!
I think that driver training is still the best go-fast money you can spend.
Bruce
How do you disable it? I would think that the best option since Jeff's car sees track duty regularily. I imagine that we could pull all that mess and replace it with a regualr cylinder from just about anywhere. I'll be happy to help you give it a go. I like the styling of the newer cars better than my SE, but I do not like the ABS nor the power steering. Both, IMHO, are not needed on a car such as this.
Ron
Ron
Guys, thanks. Jim, I agree with you on ABS, mostly. If you can't threshold brake, then ABS is a huge safety plus if you have the presence of mind to steer. I think for trucks and things with no weight on the rears, ABS is probably a really good thing.
I have also driven MANY BMWs over the years that had ABS and had great pedal feel. In fact, I've driven Mazdas, Nissans, Toyotas, even Dodges that had ABS and better pedal feel than my Esprit.
So, while I agree with you that ABS is dumbed down braking, there has got to be a way to make the system work properly and deliver decent feel. What I've got right now is not so much spongy pedal but rather a noticeable delay in actual braking from the time I hit the pedal to the time the car actually starts slowing down. Doesn't sound like an accumulator problem to me.
I'm perplexed. Ron, I might just rip the damn thing off. Your brakes felt great.
I have also driven MANY BMWs over the years that had ABS and had great pedal feel. In fact, I've driven Mazdas, Nissans, Toyotas, even Dodges that had ABS and better pedal feel than my Esprit.
So, while I agree with you that ABS is dumbed down braking, there has got to be a way to make the system work properly and deliver decent feel. What I've got right now is not so much spongy pedal but rather a noticeable delay in actual braking from the time I hit the pedal to the time the car actually starts slowing down. Doesn't sound like an accumulator problem to me.
I'm perplexed. Ron, I might just rip the damn thing off. Your brakes felt great.
bojangles said:
...Since the ABS system controls the pressure you step on the pedal then it barely moves, as you apply pressure the pump boosts the pressure also and you get the feeling that the pedal has not moved at all.... Great for heel and toeing and keeping your position behind the wheel.
Bruce, how do you get to heel and toe on your Esprit? Mine and every other S4s I have ever tried has the pedals setup such that the brake pedal is lower than the throttle. I try to contort myself to reach the throttle with my heel while braking, but due to its position, I cannot keep control of braking pressure. Trying to use the side of the foot for blipping the throttle is also useless since the pedal is too far away and too high to make this possible.
Has anybody been able to adjust the pedals to make this possible?
Hmmm...I heel n toe mine all the time but just sitting here, I have no idea how.
[runs outside]
The women at the business below us think I'm crazy now.
Ball of foot square on brake pedal. Roll foot to right and catch gas pedal with the side of my shoe right about at the middle between the toe and heel. If I'm in bare feet, I twist my leg and use my heel. That's much easier.
Regardless, it's awkward. I crack off crisp, clean downshifts with our '91 BMW 318is and find myself doing it all the time because the pedals are set up perfectly.
[runs outside]
The women at the business below us think I'm crazy now.
Ball of foot square on brake pedal. Roll foot to right and catch gas pedal with the side of my shoe right about at the middle between the toe and heel. If I'm in bare feet, I twist my leg and use my heel. That's much easier.
Regardless, it's awkward. I crack off crisp, clean downshifts with our '91 BMW 318is and find myself doing it all the time because the pedals are set up perfectly.
I do the same, and on my bmw it happens without thinking. With the lotus my brake pedal barely moves when i push on it and the harder i push the more the pump fights back and lifts my foot. The brake pedal position is very stable as you brake. The accelerator is exactly beside it at the same level. and if anything i over- rev the Lotus cause it has such a sensitive pedal. I have dont drivers schools in the BMW and the lotus and I think at the end of the day I was better in the Lotus. Thing just happened more quickly and less went wrong.
With the BMW i had to brake for longer, think for longer about the shift and hence screwed it up more..
Bruce
With the BMW i had to brake for longer, think for longer about the shift and hence screwed it up more..
Bruce
M3 is just about the perfect track car. I got eaten alive by a very well driven on at my last track event. Great brakes, lots of torque, decent top end (although as you know, on most tracks, our street cars never see more than 125 or so, so "top top" end is sort of irrelevant). A good handler stock, can be made into a great handler.
Also, Bojangles, it is one pump to a firm pedal with ignition on, car off in my 93.5 Esprit. Seems to me the accumulator is ok?
Also, Bojangles, it is one pump to a firm pedal with ignition on, car off in my 93.5 Esprit. Seems to me the accumulator is ok?
you should hear the abs pump come on when the accumulator needs charging
open the front hood and you should hear it..
just switch on the ignition and begin to pump the brakes..
if the pump cycles in less than 4 pumps the accum is dead.
mine was ever 3-4 pedal pumps.
new ( used ) accum now cycles every 7-8 pumps and the brakes are WAYYYYYYYYYY better.
I dont think anyone with the GM brakes can get more than 10 pumps without the abs pump coming on - let me know
ill go take a check now... I have not checked in a while.
open the front hood and you should hear it..
just switch on the ignition and begin to pump the brakes..
if the pump cycles in less than 4 pumps the accum is dead.
mine was ever 3-4 pedal pumps.
new ( used ) accum now cycles every 7-8 pumps and the brakes are WAYYYYYYYYYY better.
I dont think anyone with the GM brakes can get more than 10 pumps without the abs pump coming on - let me know
ill go take a check now... I have not checked in a while.
MikeyRide said:Part of the problem is that my Lotus Sport 300 drilled alloy pedal covers were setup such that there was a 2-3/4" gap between the brake and the throttle. This was too far of a reach for me even with my wide feet. I'm correcting that now by moving the pedal cover to the other set of holes, but the gap will still be about 2-1/4 inches.
Hmmm...I heel n toe mine all the time but just sitting here, I have no idea how.
Ball of foot square on brake pedal. Roll foot to right and catch gas pedal with the side of my shoe right about at the middle between the toe and heel. If I'm in bare feet, I twist my leg and use my heel. That's much easier.
The other problem is that when neither pedal is pressed, both the brake and throttle pedal are at exactly the same height (clutch pedal is much higher). When I press on the brake, this makes the pedal sit lower than the accelerator which makes it difficult to roll the side of your foot over.
The ideal setup for H&T should be for both pedals to be at the same height when the brake is being applied firmly and the accelerator is not pressed. This just does not happen with my Esprits or any other Esprits I have tried.
JeffYoung said:Jeff,
Mr. Bojangles, you were correct. Only one or two pumps before the pump came on. Is the accumulator a GM part? Do you have a part no. for it?
Thanks a bunch.
Jeff
You can get the accumulator from GMPartsDirect.com
The part number is 25528382. Price was about $87.
To install (15 minute job):
- de-pressurize the ABS (ignition off, firmly press brake pedal 40 times)
- place rags under the cannonball to catch all brake fluid that WILL spill
- unscrew the existing cannonball (watch your knuckles)
- lube the o-ring on the new cannonball with brake fluid
- screw in the new cannonball
- start ignition and press brake pedal to re-pressurize system
- make sure ABS pump only runs once every 5-7 presses of the pedal
Cheers
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