Lotus must make the 'all new' esprit compete.....
Discussion
......with cars like the lambo mercialago and zonda pagani if they want people to take it seriously. the current mk2 esprit is great but most people i know slag it off for its top speed of only 175mph and 0-60 in 4.8secs - that's very fast/quick but disappointing compared to most ferraris and tvrs.
I don't neccesarily agree. In order to survive, Lotus is going to have to produce a supercar that will be affordable (relatively speaking.) Also, in order to retain Lotus loyalists, the car will have to conform to the Chapman doctrine.
A beast like the Murc, while a gem for sure, does not fit the bill. It is heavy as hell, and Lotus owners demand a lightweight nimble car.
Lotus finds themselves in an interesting niche.
They do not have (nor ever will) the instant name recognition of Ferrari or Lambo. Therefore, no matter how stellar the car is, most people won't consider it in the same class. But for those who know the difference, Lotus will continue to be a player.
But for general consumption, if Lotus puts out a Murc beater, it is gauranteed to cost nearly the same. That won't sell in the US, because the name recognition (and therefore the prestige) isn't there. And if it doesn't sell in the US, Lotus will get hit hard.
I think Lotus will produce a gem, but it won't be a Murc beater. It will be an exotic supercar, and hopefully be very Lotus-like. And I imagine the price tag will hover around the 100K mark...and won't exceed it.
Mike
A beast like the Murc, while a gem for sure, does not fit the bill. It is heavy as hell, and Lotus owners demand a lightweight nimble car.
Lotus finds themselves in an interesting niche.
They do not have (nor ever will) the instant name recognition of Ferrari or Lambo. Therefore, no matter how stellar the car is, most people won't consider it in the same class. But for those who know the difference, Lotus will continue to be a player.
But for general consumption, if Lotus puts out a Murc beater, it is gauranteed to cost nearly the same. That won't sell in the US, because the name recognition (and therefore the prestige) isn't there. And if it doesn't sell in the US, Lotus will get hit hard.
I think Lotus will produce a gem, but it won't be a Murc beater. It will be an exotic supercar, and hopefully be very Lotus-like. And I imagine the price tag will hover around the 100K mark...and won't exceed it.
Mike
madmike, you made some very good and interesting points.
I don't see why cars in the lambo mercialago and zonda pagani league have to be "heavy as hell". the ferrari f40 was amazingly light with [i think] just a 2.9cc engine, and managed over 200mph. There's no reason why the "all new" esprit can't be lightweight and still give the lambo and zonda a run for their money.
I want to see esprit amaze people again with it's performance, as it did in the 80s and early 90s. i remember people saying things like, "wow, over 160mph with just a tiny 2litre engine!!" During that time the esprit was so amazing you'd think you could driving all the way to the moon and back.
I don't see why cars in the lambo mercialago and zonda pagani league have to be "heavy as hell". the ferrari f40 was amazingly light with [i think] just a 2.9cc engine, and managed over 200mph. There's no reason why the "all new" esprit can't be lightweight and still give the lambo and zonda a run for their money.
I want to see esprit amaze people again with it's performance, as it did in the 80s and early 90s. i remember people saying things like, "wow, over 160mph with just a tiny 2litre engine!!" During that time the esprit was so amazing you'd think you could driving all the way to the moon and back.
Don't forget that Esprits in the eighties easily beat ferraris of the era with respect to acceleration and handling. And the trends now tend to lean toward smaller engine, turbocharged, light cars, like the Esprit was, and the new one probably will be. I expect the introduction of the wonderful Elise in America to drum up interest for Lotus here, and increase interest in the Esprit. Of course, this is all dependant on Lotus getting the classic Chapman formula right 
Dan
Dan
I think £100k is too much for the next Esprit. I really think Lotus desperately need a new hi-performance car in the £50-60k bracket, that still eats £100k rari's like they used to.
A bigger Elise chassis with a bigger engine in the back (why do they seem not to want to use their own V8 in a new car?) seems perfect. Mourn for the M250.
Lotus was everything to me as a kid. Now I find myself with the money to buy and the Esprit hasn't really changed over those intervening 20 years, but the rest of world has. The Elise is just too slow in a straight line, so my money has gone TVR's way for the moment.
Cheers
Maf
A bigger Elise chassis with a bigger engine in the back (why do they seem not to want to use their own V8 in a new car?) seems perfect. Mourn for the M250.
Lotus was everything to me as a kid. Now I find myself with the money to buy and the Esprit hasn't really changed over those intervening 20 years, but the rest of world has. The Elise is just too slow in a straight line, so my money has gone TVR's way for the moment.
Cheers
Maf
The Espit and Elise are two different cars.
The Elise goes back more to the roots of Lotus. A light nimble car well handling car, not so much high end speed but, but quick and bit more Spartan (I belive excellent autocrosser).
The Esprit is a heavier better appointed GT (road course) car. High end speeds that is more than a match except for the fastest of cars.
To have both type available would be nice.
Calvin
The Elise goes back more to the roots of Lotus. A light nimble car well handling car, not so much high end speed but, but quick and bit more Spartan (I belive excellent autocrosser).
The Esprit is a heavier better appointed GT (road course) car. High end speeds that is more than a match except for the fastest of cars.
To have both type available would be nice.
Calvin
Maf said:why do they seem not to want to use their own V8 in a new car?
Because the Esprit V8 engine itself costs about £10k
Too expensive for a new car.
They need to get it down to around £3k to £4k for a V8 to be interesting.
For instance the 1.8 K-series in the Elise costs around £1k to £1.5k new and complete.
Bye, Arno.
Arno said:
Because the Esprit V8 engine itself costs about £10k
Too expensive for a new car.
They need to get it down to around £3k to £4k for a V8 to be interesting.
Bye, Arno.
Not sure I understand this. Also not sure what kind of business schools Lotus managers went to.
Seems to me that since the investment in the 918 V8 was already made, and it didn't manage to sell to outside buyers in the volumes Lotus designed it for, surely they should not waste it by ditching it in favour of an outside engine? Especially as it has such good development potential and is the first completely Lotus engine to grace a Lotus car.
If they don't use it, and go for a bought in engine, they can kiss goodbye to many sales. The prestige of the brand will seem to be going backwards rather than improving.
I certainly wouldn't buy the next car if it doesn't use a Lotus motor. It's enough that gearboxes/switchgear/electronics are borrowed, but if the engine also goes, than all that's left is the chassis, I'd be better off buying a car from someone else that Lotus has engineered in its consultancy work, like the AM Vanquish.
Nicholas
......with cars like the lambo mercialago and zonda pagani if they want people to take it seriously. the current mk2 esprit is great but most people i know slag it off for its top speed of only 175mph and 0-60 in 4.8secs - that's very fast/quick but disappointing compared to most ferraris and tvrs.
I think that the new Esprit will be...
1. Competitive with the Lambo Gallardo, F 360 replacement, (and it's main US competition) the Ford GT. It will be priced less.
2. It will probably make use of the extruded aluminium bonding process or possibly a carbon fibre monocoque (considering that CF is becoming more available these days)
3. The engine will most likely be a forced induction 6 cylinder (a la the Noble)
4. The handling will be without par out the factory door.
To me, it's not who makes the parts, it's how the parts are assembled. The Noble uses a Ford duretech as it's base - but it doesn't make the car a Ford
. Lotus will be Lotus - acceleration and performance through low weight and good torque. I'm with Madmike though, give me an eye pleaser Lotus...
ErnestM
Ye Olde Esprit said: Seems to me that since the investment in the 918 V8 was already made, and it didn't manage to sell to outside buyers in the volumes Lotus designed it for, surely they should not waste it by ditching it in favour of an outside engine?
Don't get me wrong.. I like the engine (can't afford an Esprit, but that's a different story), but there are realities that make it highly unlikely it's life is extended.
Keeping on using it also means they have to keep building replacement parts and such. This puts quite a strain on the company. I can imagine that they will actually outsource the current parts supply as the Esprit is wrapped up.
It's also a liability for them to use in a new car if they want to sell it in bigger volumes, because every engine pretty much gets built by hand and as such the production process does not scale.
Setting up a new engine factory is simply way outside of Lotus' meagre financial capabilities at the moment and I suspect Proton is 'not interested' in the V8 for their cars either.
Remember, Lotus-Cars is pretty much losing money on all area's and they simply can't afford much.
Buying a V6 or V8 from another big manufacturer means that the cost starts relatively low and if the model does become a big seller then prices are likely to go down further as volumes increase.
'servicability' of the car gets much better as well as many mechanics will already know the engine used and repairs can be done with mostly off-the-shelf parts at your local car-part shop.
The Elise already proved that as it can be maintained by anyone familiar with the bog-standard K-series. One of it's nice features is the fact that servicing costs are just like a 'regular' car for the most part.
It also automatically benefits from any further engine developments/improvements done by the engine manufacturer.
As to it not being a 'real' lotus if it got a different engine... Hmm.. The Esprit along with a few of it's siblings are the only models that even got a full Lotus engine.
In it's past Lotus has always worked with lots of different engines in it's cars (and many of those were not even originally built by Lotus like the Cortina, Sunbeam and Carlton). They work miracles on chassis design and handling but generally don't grok engine design as well.
Bye, Arno.
Arno said:
As to it not being a 'real' lotus if it got a different engine... Hmm.. The Esprit along with a few of it's siblings are the only models that even got a full Lotus engine.
I never actually said it wouldn't be a real Lotus if it didn't use their own engine.
What I meant was that having come this far, and built a good V8 already, they should not go backwards and start using outside engines, especially on a car of this importance.
Consider also that Lotus already has a history of building great motors for other people. Most we don't know about because the work is secret consultancy. But there are many known examples that I won't go into because I'm sure we all know them by now. So then, if Lotus could build a V12 back in the early '80s, a top V8 in the late 80's early 90's, and then their 918 V8 after that, I see no reason why I should be deprived the enjoyment of a Lotus car with an engine and chassis from the marque. That for me would sell the car. I'm sure I'm not alone. The other bits can be sourced from who ever they please, but the main character of the car is in half in the engine, half in the car... it matters.
The Elise is a fab car, I wanted one. I didn't buy it becaue of the rover motor/box. The M100 Elan before it was the greatest handling front drive car ever made, and looked superb then, and still looks great when I see them whizz by me today; the Isuzu drivetrain ruined the prestige. Many bought aftermarket cam covers to hide the origins of the engine. It was a political issue that it went in their rather than a Toyota that had been preferred. This sort of thing is what keeps Lotus from being taken seriously as a prestige marque and keeps sales lower than they could be.
As for the Esprit being a V6, if it is, they may as well ditch it now.
BTW - anyone know who is designing the shape of the car? Is it the inhouse team again?
Nicholas
As much as I love my Esprit, I could definately live without worring about the rubber Timing belt or the common leaking piston liner (mine went at 23Kmiles). I truly wouldn't mind an Audi/Mercedes/BMW or Toyota engine in my Esprit if it meant knowing I could never worry about belt changes, leaking engine, or mileage over 200K .... The true reason for spending my money on my 2000V8 was the amazing chassis design and handling, the exterior design and the racing heritage. I can't wait to drive the all new Esprit with a 400HP 6cyl engine that is good for 200K+ miles with a CHAIN belt.
BTW- Isn't the XJ220 a 6cyl Supercar?
Ed-
BTW- Isn't the XJ220 a 6cyl Supercar?
Ed-
Ye Olde Esprit - I agree with many points of yours. Especially Lotus not being taken seriously due to using parts from other manufactureres. I believe it is time they step up and start to build their own image. They CAN do it. I can only hope the next generation Esprit is with better build quality. Even it is the sub $100,000 mark. That is still a great value.
Reading some of the posts though here in this topic, I see somehting about 400hp 6 cylinder? Is this a hypothetical or did someone read this somewhere?
V8's are good, but I kind of like the idea of a small engine that rockets the lightweight Esprit. I wouldnt be so quick to discredit a high performance 6 engine.
Reading some of the posts though here in this topic, I see somehting about 400hp 6 cylinder? Is this a hypothetical or did someone read this somewhere?
V8's are good, but I kind of like the idea of a small engine that rockets the lightweight Esprit. I wouldnt be so quick to discredit a high performance 6 engine.
Personally I can't see the next Esprit being a V-6. The only reason they took the original from 4 to 8 cylenders was market pressure...supercar folks wouldn't take a 4cylendar seriously. Stupid yes, but a market reality.
Nor will they accept a V-6. Not when the least of the Ferrari cars sports 8. It's just an image/conception thing. Lotus won't do it, they know all the press wil be about "why no V-8 power" before the car first ships. If they went with a V-6, V-8 comparable performance wouldn't do...the 6 stats would have to be simply mind bending in order to draw customers to the showroom.
As for the Esprit having a Lotus engine or other marquee, I'm torn. I agree it would be great to have Honda reliability. But then again, I would have bought an NSX if that was a major factor.
In the end tho, I still get down to the ownership pride of aving a hand built supercar. If it's a sourced motor, I think it loses that touch. OK, so I'm not so torn after all...I'd prefer a Lotus engine.
Let's just hope that they don't opt for so many cheap ass components this time around...plastic tubes and sh*tty gearboxes and the like.
Mike
Wanted to add, the Esprit follow on doesn't have to be wildly successful...it really just needs to be a stellar big brother to the Elise that sells out it's stock. The Elise in the US will make or break Lotus, not the new Esprit.
Nor will they accept a V-6. Not when the least of the Ferrari cars sports 8. It's just an image/conception thing. Lotus won't do it, they know all the press wil be about "why no V-8 power" before the car first ships. If they went with a V-6, V-8 comparable performance wouldn't do...the 6 stats would have to be simply mind bending in order to draw customers to the showroom.
As for the Esprit having a Lotus engine or other marquee, I'm torn. I agree it would be great to have Honda reliability. But then again, I would have bought an NSX if that was a major factor.
In the end tho, I still get down to the ownership pride of aving a hand built supercar. If it's a sourced motor, I think it loses that touch. OK, so I'm not so torn after all...I'd prefer a Lotus engine.
Let's just hope that they don't opt for so many cheap ass components this time around...plastic tubes and sh*tty gearboxes and the like.
Mike
Wanted to add, the Esprit follow on doesn't have to be wildly successful...it really just needs to be a stellar big brother to the Elise that sells out it's stock. The Elise in the US will make or break Lotus, not the new Esprit.
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