Lotus: Giver of Horrendous Paint Jobs
Discussion
I was at a British Car Day today (Chateau Élan, Georgia) -- nice car Karl, Brain, et al -- and while examining the Lotus' a persistent worry become an unfortunate water shed -- Lotus gives their cars horrendous paint jobs. Whether its because the fiberglass isn't sanded sufficiently before or after spraying, there exists no smoothness to the surface of the cars and light reflects off of them as it does off of previously crumbled aluminum foil.
Who agrees with me?
If so, my questions are these:
What's up with $90K cars receiving $2K paint jobs?
Who has done something about it (repaint) and how did it result? Costs?
I admit: I'm anal about paint. But the Lotuses I saw -- including an Élan and new Elises' -- all had paint jobs whose lack off attention to detail rivals that of the frugally painted adolescent driven rice rocks I see at their shows. Seriously.
Disappointed,
Luke.
Who agrees with me?
If so, my questions are these:
What's up with $90K cars receiving $2K paint jobs?
Who has done something about it (repaint) and how did it result? Costs?
I admit: I'm anal about paint. But the Lotuses I saw -- including an Élan and new Elises' -- all had paint jobs whose lack off attention to detail rivals that of the frugally painted adolescent driven rice rocks I see at their shows. Seriously.
Disappointed,
Luke.
Yes I agree unfortunately 
Seen a few myself, but thought cause I work in the industry I had an evil eye.
Fibreglass has a tendency to flex and constantly on the move in worst cases causing stress fractures. I have the impression Lotus designers where using it for its strength, light weight and long term durabilty qualities. Which in this case wins hands down over steel panels.
Appearently its very difficult acheiving the perfect surface using these high performance chemicals/materials.
My car has very tiny little cracks and dimples in the paint in some parts. If you look very closely under the right light you can see the chopped mat strand shapes through the surface. Most people wouldn't even notice this at all, but shows up nicely on black cars.
Anyway my baby still looks very tidy despite this and I hope she's blocking her ears.
KS
>> Edited by kylie on Sunday 18th May 06:07
Seen a few myself, but thought cause I work in the industry I had an evil eye. Fibreglass has a tendency to flex and constantly on the move in worst cases causing stress fractures. I have the impression Lotus designers where using it for its strength, light weight and long term durabilty qualities. Which in this case wins hands down over steel panels.
Appearently its very difficult acheiving the perfect surface using these high performance chemicals/materials.
My car has very tiny little cracks and dimples in the paint in some parts. If you look very closely under the right light you can see the chopped mat strand shapes through the surface. Most people wouldn't even notice this at all, but shows up nicely on black cars.
Anyway my baby still looks very tidy despite this and I hope she's blocking her ears.
KS
>> Edited by kylie on Sunday 18th May 06:07
I would have thought that they also continued with fibreglass due to cheaper production costs, which is more important to Lotus than other considerations.
These days would not aluminium have be a better choice, if cost was not the major concern?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Regards,
Nicholas
These days would not aluminium have be a better choice, if cost was not the major concern?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Regards,
Nicholas
Kylie,
You make the situation sound hopeless. I've had lots of fiberglass body parts adorn my cars and I have found that when ones paint turns out poorly it was always the result of minimal labor, pre and post paint.
My body man is quite adept at working with 'glass and I'd expect that if enough time is spent sanding, a Lotus could be given a smooth paint job. Do you not agree?
Luke.
Luke,
They do suck. I backed out of an 02 Esprit after finding several paint runs, nicks, chips, dings, etc in the paint. Back in the 80s, Lotus spent hundereds of hours preping the bodys before paint. The paint on my 85 Esprit was flawless (when new).
After GM purchased Lotus, they started "Generallly accepted quality" practices. When GM sold Lotus, GM improved, Lotus did not. One of the problems that Lotus had in the recent past is that in their production of the Vauxhall, GM would only allow three problems before the car failed QC. That included paint issues. They had a lot of failures at first...
I just purchased a new body clam for my Exige and it was shipped from the Factory. It looked like something a 10 year would do. The body shop spent a lot of time smoothing out the glass before paint...
It's a shame.
Roy
They do suck. I backed out of an 02 Esprit after finding several paint runs, nicks, chips, dings, etc in the paint. Back in the 80s, Lotus spent hundereds of hours preping the bodys before paint. The paint on my 85 Esprit was flawless (when new).
After GM purchased Lotus, they started "Generallly accepted quality" practices. When GM sold Lotus, GM improved, Lotus did not. One of the problems that Lotus had in the recent past is that in their production of the Vauxhall, GM would only allow three problems before the car failed QC. That included paint issues. They had a lot of failures at first...
I just purchased a new body clam for my Exige and it was shipped from the Factory. It looked like something a 10 year would do. The body shop spent a lot of time smoothing out the glass before paint...
It's a shame.
Roy
karmavore said:
Kylie,
You make the situation sound hopeless. I've had lots of fiberglass body parts adorn my cars and I have found that when ones paint turns out poorly it was always the result of minimal labor, pre and post paint.
My body man is quite adept at working with 'glass and I'd expect that if enough time is spent sanding, a Lotus could be given a smooth paint job. Do you not agree?
Luke.
No not completely hopeless. You do need lots of time making the perfect plug. So when your taking a mould off it and pumping out a few hundred panels its gotta be good and with good research you will work out where the stress points are. (car flexing areas) The other thing, you can only take so many positives from a mould before it faintly starts going crappy. I would be interested in what Lotus's QC did here. Lots and lots of bogging and sanding is required.
The other question I ask myself. Did Lotus test the cars two years later after it had been tracked, everyday use etc for these things to show up? Perhaps they did?
I was put off a very low mileage 1987 G shape Esprit in British Racing Green.
The car was in amazing condition, better than new, but the paintwork was as wrinkly as my granny, and she died in 1989.
Eventually I stumbled across a Monaco White car. The panels are just as wrinkly, but the colour hides a multitude of sins and I can just about live with it.
I have seen a few faultless paintjobs on restoration cars, particularly baby Elans, but the factory finish is often dreadful. Choosing colours like pearlescent midnight blue is only asking for trouble.
Here's mine, which just about passes muster.
The car was in amazing condition, better than new, but the paintwork was as wrinkly as my granny, and she died in 1989.
Eventually I stumbled across a Monaco White car. The panels are just as wrinkly, but the colour hides a multitude of sins and I can just about live with it.
I have seen a few faultless paintjobs on restoration cars, particularly baby Elans, but the factory finish is often dreadful. Choosing colours like pearlescent midnight blue is only asking for trouble.
Here's mine, which just about passes muster.
Hi I spoke to one of the chemists today as apparently he helped do some work for Lotus in the Elan era, that was towards the end of the 70's. Seems like I was just a pup then He said their laminating techniques were a little shoddy back then and the fact that technology was evolving quickly there were lots of changes. They also never used gelcoat in the moulds. They just put down a series of laminates in the mould then sanded them back like nothing on earth and finally put layers of paint on them. So hence the problems everyone is seeing. Post curing was also a biggy esp with black/dark coloured cars as the outside temp gets piping hot so lots of bubbling was a prob.
Unfortunately he dosent know what resins and gelcoat if any are used today, but sure is interesting. Would love for someone here to post some stuff if they know anything about the techniques they use. I only know the moulding methods, how they did it up until 89.
I have a crap load of info on identifying paint problems that I will post soon.
>> Edited by kylie on Monday 19th May 06:01
He said their laminating techniques were a little shoddy back then and the fact that technology was evolving quickly there were lots of changes. They also never used gelcoat in the moulds. They just put down a series of laminates in the mould then sanded them back like nothing on earth and finally put layers of paint on them. So hence the problems everyone is seeing. Post curing was also a biggy esp with black/dark coloured cars as the outside temp gets piping hot so lots of bubbling was a prob. Unfortunately he dosent know what resins and gelcoat if any are used today, but sure is interesting. Would love for someone here to post some stuff if they know anything about the techniques they use. I only know the moulding methods, how they did it up until 89.
I have a crap load of info on identifying paint problems that I will post soon.
>> Edited by kylie on Monday 19th May 06:01
kylie said: Hi I spoke to one of the chemists today as apparently he helped do some work for Lotus in the Elan era, that was towards the end of the 70's. Seems like I was just a pup then
Unfortunately he dosent know what resins and gelcoat if any are used today, but sure is interesting. Would love for someone here to post some stuff if they know anything about the techniques they use. I only know the moulding methods, how they did it up until 89.
I have a crap load of info on identifying paint problems that I will post soon.
>> Edited by kylie on Monday 19th May 06:01
Kylie,
I can't say for the post-'87 cars, but prior to that, going all the way back to the Elite, Lotus shot the moulds with Glass Strand and Resin through a scatter gun. Gelcoat was introduced to correct the inherent imperfections of this technique.
As previously mentioned by you, this method will produce sterling results if the prep and finish work are done correctly. The 'G' cars had very good finishes and paint, but it must be remembered that Lotus did so at a time when environmental impact was not the concern it is today and so had paints and materials which were developed solely with the end result in mind rather than the many compromises introduced to limit the environmental effects of the painting method.
Also, as has been mentioned, fit and finish suffered somewhat during the GM reign. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
Thanks Luke.The bubbling/blistering through thing was one of the points that crossed my mind.The other thing I am worried about is the effect of oven temperatures on the glue that holds the top and bottom half of the car together.I think cellulose paint doesn't need baking.Would this be a better paint to use?
Colin '89 SE
Colin '89 SE
powercam said: I am having a bit of a makeover done soon on my Esprit SE.The people I am using assure me that the car will be fine in a low bake oven.I am not so sure.I seem to recall that the heat in the spray oven can do harm to fiberglass.What do you think please
Colin '89 SE Pacific Blue
Hi Colin, Karmavore and all.
If the right techniques have been applied in the first place while laminating, the glass should be very stable. Unless the glass is contaminated with dirt or something anything could be possible. Slow curing thixotropic polyester resins usually have a exotherm temperature anything around 30 - 60 deg C. If Lotus used more expensive resins like vinyl ester, it has an even higher exotherm (100deg C), low shinkage, with better resistance to heat distortion. So another words they do a series a post curings at temperatures higher than a finished painted car would be exposed to.
They should also allow for shrinkage in the early stages as this proper curing will elimate most of these issues of bubbling etc afterwards.
The gelcoat surface before painting can look very distorted if using polyester resins. It looks kinda shrunken in, so when they are happy that it isn't going to shrink or move any further the hard preparation work begins of sanding and bogging!!
Most people do further curings of the final layers of paint.
In a perfect world the person doing your respray thats if its the same colour, would leave the car out in the sun (sounds terrible) and let it cook in the sun for a while. They would use their infra red technology to take a reading of the heat on the car. He/she would then adjust the bake oven to minimun 15 deg c higher than recorded temp.
So hence if you have a white car and the temperature off it reads an average of 50deg C at the hottest spot, you would assume that they cook it at 60deg C plus. A dark surface reflects images better, revealing the fibre prominence more than a light coloured car. Dark absorbs more sunlight energy, achieving a higher temperature which creates more postcure. I beleive black cars can get up to over 80 deg C!!! So if its done by pros you will end up with a pretty good chance of success.
So ya bored yet?
>> Edited by kylie on Wednesday 21st May 06:49
>> Edited by kylie on Wednesday 21st May 06:51
Ye Olde Esprit said: ...These days would not aluminium have be a better choice, if cost was not the major concern?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Absolutely correct, except aluminium is heavier, has more restictions on surface profile in manufacturing and has limited panel size.
You want to pay extra for a heavier, slower, worse handling Lotus which is more expensive to insure but has slightly shinier paint?
What would Chapman think?
Absolutely correct, except aluminium is heavier, has more restictions on surface profile in manufacturing and has limited panel size.
You want to pay extra for a heavier, slower, worse handling Lotus which is more expensive to insure but has slightly shinier paint?
What would Chapman think?
I don't think Chapman would really care much; remember that all initial Lotus cars had metal bodies.
Anyway, I have it on good authority that Lotus is exploring the possibility of using an aluminium body on the '06MY Esprit.
Cheers,
Karl-Franz :-)
www.espritfactfile.com
Kylie, Thank you for the information.Having read what's involved I don't think the bodyshop I had selected would be up to the job.I am not that far away from the Lotus factory so I think I'll find out what their bodyshop would charge.££££$$$$ I'm sure! but I'll give it a go.Failing that,there is a cruiser boat builders not far away - I'm sure they would have the right sort of expertise.Thanks.
Colin '89 SE
Colin '89 SE
There is a chap moniker "Bodyman" on the site.
His company does Lotus and TVR body repairs and paintshop. Send him a email, he should be able to advise you.
Their website is at
www.tvrbliss.co.uk/ewelme_lotus/
His company does Lotus and TVR body repairs and paintshop. Send him a email, he should be able to advise you.
Their website is at
www.tvrbliss.co.uk/ewelme_lotus/
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