Hard shifting at speed...
Discussion
Sorry in advance for any typo's... its late...
I'm looking for anyone that has had this problem or has a suggestion for a cure:
At speed, say around 5,000 RPM+/-, I am having trouble shifting - especially 3rd. This is not the usual red hose issue, the car has a stainless line (?). My first thought is that the sycros could be played out, but in my years playing with race cars and street cars, I have never had them all go out at the same time? The clutch engages in the correct spot with no difficulty.
I'm hoping that the shifter is out of adjustment as the cross gate cable was WAY WAY out when I bought the car. It drives okay until I really want to go...
ANY ideas out there?
>>> Edited by autocross7 on Saturday 21st June 06:39
I'm looking for anyone that has had this problem or has a suggestion for a cure:
At speed, say around 5,000 RPM+/-, I am having trouble shifting - especially 3rd. This is not the usual red hose issue, the car has a stainless line (?). My first thought is that the sycros could be played out, but in my years playing with race cars and street cars, I have never had them all go out at the same time? The clutch engages in the correct spot with no difficulty.
I'm hoping that the shifter is out of adjustment as the cross gate cable was WAY WAY out when I bought the car. It drives okay until I really want to go...
ANY ideas out there?
>>> Edited by autocross7 on Saturday 21st June 06:39
Hi,
I don't suspect the crossgate cable as this is much more of a 1/2 - 5/R thing. There's not usually much effect on the 3/4 shift.
Check to see that the bushings on the translator are in good order. Also, what gear oil are you using? Most owners report that switching to RedLine MT90 solves many of their issues, including the high speed shift. Hope this helps. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
I don't suspect the crossgate cable as this is much more of a 1/2 - 5/R thing. There's not usually much effect on the 3/4 shift.
Check to see that the bushings on the translator are in good order. Also, what gear oil are you using? Most owners report that switching to RedLine MT90 solves many of their issues, including the high speed shift. Hope this helps. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
Hi there, This might be a silly question but is your problem under speed or acceleration? It's only a thought but I had similar problems but changing from 1st to 2nd.
Adrain Mugridge gave me some advise which I thought was dumb at first, but he asked me to make sure that my foot went ot the floor.
It's surprising how lazy or out of time we get under acceleration. Well anyway this helped my problem much better.
The other thing that helped was my clutch master cyclinder went last week. With the new one, my gear change is a lot better now. No more crunching the gears. It could have even been the new flued that was also changed.
BTW it only ever happened when I floored it and the revs went over 5000RPM.
I must point out that Iam a novice here and you probably have ruled these things out already.
It's probably something more technical.
Cheers,
Dave Walters
Adrain Mugridge gave me some advise which I thought was dumb at first, but he asked me to make sure that my foot went ot the floor.
It's surprising how lazy or out of time we get under acceleration. Well anyway this helped my problem much better.
The other thing that helped was my clutch master cyclinder went last week. With the new one, my gear change is a lot better now. No more crunching the gears. It could have even been the new flued that was also changed.
BTW it only ever happened when I floored it and the revs went over 5000RPM.
I must point out that Iam a novice here and you probably have ruled these things out already.
It's probably something more technical.
Cheers,
Dave Walters
It occurs at speed only. At the suggestion of a friend with a Ferrari, I put some Z-Max in the gear box. It is made with Linkite and i used to put in aircraft engines... Anyway, it seems to have helped. I am still planning to put some MT-90 in when it arrives...
>> Edited by autocross7 on Sunday 29th June 01:31
>> Edited by autocross7 on Sunday 29th June 01:31
Hi,
Personally. I'm not a fan of additives for the engine or the gearbox. There are several reasons for this. First, there are many companies out there selling essentially snake oil remedies. These are often merely heavier weight oils which mask the symptoms of other problems. To the uninitiated, the noise goes away, so it must be fixed. A prime example of this was the old STP which was so popular in the '60's and '70's. All it was was a 90wt. motor oil and it did quiet down the engine etc., but the engine continued to degrade because all the STP did was mask the symptoms.
Additives containing PTFE (polytetraflouroethylene), better known by it's trade name TEFLON® is the worst additive you can put in a car. Linkite® contains PTFE. TEFLON® has a wonderful friction coefficient and makes a good lubricant. But the claims by the various manufacturers about it's virtues are pure BUNK. First, they claim it bonds to engine parts. TEFLON® is so slippery, that it doesn't want to bond with anything. The truth is that TEFLON® does not bond to a surface without the aid of a special primer. Also, at the extreme temps present at critical engine components, TEFLON® will 'flow' away from the desired area. Also, TEFLON® is classified as a NON-WETTABLE DRY LUBRICANT. This means that it actually repels oil preventing the oil from reaching and adhering to critical engine parts (just try pouring a little cooking oil into your TEFLON® fry pan to see what I mean). And as we all know, in theory, there should be no metal to metal contact of internal components such as the crankshaft to the bearing shells. The crank actually 'floats' on a thin layer of oil. TEFLON® cannot provide such a layer for long. Finally, clearly 60% of your engine cooling is performed by the oil, not the anti-freeze. Again, TEFLON® does not have the ability to absorb this heat and dissipate it away from the engine.
You mentioned that you used Linkite® in aircraft engines before. This is one area where additives containing PTFE are attractive, not because they work any better, but because they can provide sufficient time, should the lubricating system fail, to allow the pilot to land the aircraft before the engine or transmission seizes. I could go on as I've learned more about PTFE (when I was 10 years old),than I ever wanted to know. You see, my father is one of the three signatories on the Patent for TEFLON II® (which was subsequently sold to DuPont) and helped develop the first additives for aircraft engines and transmissions, yet they never envisioned or recommended their use in automobiles for the reasons I have stated.
If you haven't yet used the additive, don't. Return it for a refund and wait for the MT-90 to arrive. If you have, you'll never get it all out without a total stripdown of the tranny, but I would recommend draining the gearbox and running Valvoline or Valvoline Synthetic for 500 mi., then draining it before adding the MT-90, this will help get most of the PTFE out. Also, don't preclude that your synchros aren't going south or your pilot or throwout bearing for that matter. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
Personally. I'm not a fan of additives for the engine or the gearbox. There are several reasons for this. First, there are many companies out there selling essentially snake oil remedies. These are often merely heavier weight oils which mask the symptoms of other problems. To the uninitiated, the noise goes away, so it must be fixed. A prime example of this was the old STP which was so popular in the '60's and '70's. All it was was a 90wt. motor oil and it did quiet down the engine etc., but the engine continued to degrade because all the STP did was mask the symptoms.
Additives containing PTFE (polytetraflouroethylene), better known by it's trade name TEFLON® is the worst additive you can put in a car. Linkite® contains PTFE. TEFLON® has a wonderful friction coefficient and makes a good lubricant. But the claims by the various manufacturers about it's virtues are pure BUNK. First, they claim it bonds to engine parts. TEFLON® is so slippery, that it doesn't want to bond with anything. The truth is that TEFLON® does not bond to a surface without the aid of a special primer. Also, at the extreme temps present at critical engine components, TEFLON® will 'flow' away from the desired area. Also, TEFLON® is classified as a NON-WETTABLE DRY LUBRICANT. This means that it actually repels oil preventing the oil from reaching and adhering to critical engine parts (just try pouring a little cooking oil into your TEFLON® fry pan to see what I mean). And as we all know, in theory, there should be no metal to metal contact of internal components such as the crankshaft to the bearing shells. The crank actually 'floats' on a thin layer of oil. TEFLON® cannot provide such a layer for long. Finally, clearly 60% of your engine cooling is performed by the oil, not the anti-freeze. Again, TEFLON® does not have the ability to absorb this heat and dissipate it away from the engine.
You mentioned that you used Linkite® in aircraft engines before. This is one area where additives containing PTFE are attractive, not because they work any better, but because they can provide sufficient time, should the lubricating system fail, to allow the pilot to land the aircraft before the engine or transmission seizes. I could go on as I've learned more about PTFE (when I was 10 years old),than I ever wanted to know. You see, my father is one of the three signatories on the Patent for TEFLON II® (which was subsequently sold to DuPont) and helped develop the first additives for aircraft engines and transmissions, yet they never envisioned or recommended their use in automobiles for the reasons I have stated.
If you haven't yet used the additive, don't. Return it for a refund and wait for the MT-90 to arrive. If you have, you'll never get it all out without a total stripdown of the tranny, but I would recommend draining the gearbox and running Valvoline or Valvoline Synthetic for 500 mi., then draining it before adding the MT-90, this will help get most of the PTFE out. Also, don't preclude that your synchros aren't going south or your pilot or throwout bearing for that matter. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
Hi Jim, thanks for the info. I did put the Z-max in, but I have since drained and refilled the gear box with Castrol full systhetic. I plan to fill with the MT-90 in a couple weeks. I just decided that I really didn't know what was in the gear box, and I wanted to know. I run Castrol full synthetic in my Miata, RX-7, Austin Healey, and with great results in a Formula Ford that some friends and I race for fun from time to time. The shifting issues seem to have gone away at this point (?). The clutch is brand new and was installed by a Lotus Dealer so I ruled that out pretty quick... I'll keep up the posting regarding the addition of the MT-90. I hope the shifting will get even better (although I know the Renault gear box is known for being "knotchy"). Thanks again for the info...
Cameron
Cameron
Hey!!! My MT90 finnally arrived!!! I drained the Castrol and put in the Red Line this afternoon. The shifting is a bit easier now at high rev. It feels as good as the "notchy" shifter ever will I guess (at least it is very close to another Lotus I drove a while back and a friends 308GTS feels about the the same (but its a little tighter). Thank you all for the suggestion!!!
QUESTION: The "fill plug" on the side of the gear box... I am assuming that this (like most British cars) is the actual "fill" level for the transmission. Should the Esprit drip from this hole (not poor but drip) when the transmission is at the correct level like my Austin Healy? If so, it would appear that the user manual is incorrect with regards to the amount of gear lube to poor in by about .5 (+/-)of a quart. The manual I have states 4.8 pints (or 2.4 quarts)...
Thanks again!
QUESTION: The "fill plug" on the side of the gear box... I am assuming that this (like most British cars) is the actual "fill" level for the transmission. Should the Esprit drip from this hole (not poor but drip) when the transmission is at the correct level like my Austin Healy? If so, it would appear that the user manual is incorrect with regards to the amount of gear lube to poor in by about .5 (+/-)of a quart. The manual I have states 4.8 pints (or 2.4 quarts)...
Thanks again!
autocross7 said:
...
QUESTION: The "fill plug" on the side of the gear box... I am assuming that this (like most British cars) is the actual "fill" level for the transmission. Should the Esprit drip from this hole (not poor but drip) when the transmission is at the correct level like my Austin Healy? If so, it would appear that the user manual is incorrect with regards to the amount of gear lube to poor in by about .5 (+/-)of a quart. The manual I have states 4.8 pints (or 2.4 quarts)...
Thanks again!
Hi,
The Manual's stated capacity is correct, your tranny is not filled to the proper level.
On the Citroen C-35 transmission, a 5th gear was added to what was originally a 4 speed box. To accomodate the extra gear, the primary shaft was lengthened and the 5th gear synchronizer and the gear itself 'live' on this shaft in an extension housing which is bolted on the rear of the original gear case.
A large roller bearing supports the primary shaft and seals the extension from the main box. This is an open (as opposed to sealed) roller bearing to allow the gear lube to enter the extension housing. As such, it takes several minutes to both drain and fill this housing as the fluid can only migrate in/out through the spaces between the ball bearings.
What you need to do is fill the gearbox 'til gear lube drips out the level port. Then wait 5-10 minutes and top it off again. At this point, it will take the extra .5 qt. of lube.
Too many Esprit owners are ignorant of this fact and are driving around with only a partial fill of lube in their transmissions. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
lotusguy said:
What you need to do is fill the gearbox 'til gear lube drips out the level port. Then wait 5-10 minutes and top it off again. At this point, it will take the extra .5 qt. of lube.
Too many Esprit owners are ignorant of this fact and are driving around with only a partial fill of lube in their transmissions. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
I didnt know that, Yet again you come up with a stunning Gem. Do you have site or page with these tit bits on them as they are priceless.
Steve
89 Turbo (off to 'fill' the gearbox)
Sorry for the typo's. Its is Saturday morning after a Friday night ;o)
>> Edited by unity1 on Saturday 19th July 10:45
unity1 said:
What you need to do is fill the gearbox 'til gear lube drips out the level port. Then wait 5-10 minutes and top it off again. At this point, it will take the extra .5 qt. of lube.
Too many Esprit owners are ignorant of this fact and are driving around with only a partial fill of lube in their transmissions. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
I didnt know that, Yet again you come up with a stunning Gem. Do you have site or page with these tit bits on them as they are priceless.
Steve
89 Turbo (off to 'fill' the gearbox)
Sorry for the typo's. Its is Saturday morning after a Friday night ;o)
>> Edited by unity1 on Saturday 19th July 10:45
Steve,
I'm not sure that this advise applies to you as you have the Renault gearbox. The Citroen C-35 box was
discontinued in '89 and the Renault put in it's place.
Still, there's every possibility that something similar may be going on w/ the Renault tranny as well. Are you having difficulty adding the specified amount of fluid?
If so, waiting a few minutes after filling to the level port and trying to add more may validate this line of thinking for the Renault gearbox as well. Nothng lost in trying it. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
unity1 said:
I didnt know that, Yet again you come up with a stunning Gem. Do you have site or page with these tit bits on them as they are priceless.
Steve
89 Turbo (off to 'fill' the gearbox)
Sorry for the typo's. Its is Saturday morning after a Friday night ;o)
>> Edited by unity1 on Saturday 19th July 10:45
Steve,
Thank you for your kind words. As much as I may know about the Esprit, I am equally ignorant of Computers, web pages, sites and the like.
I'd love to have a web page, if only I knew how to go about doing it. Any advise? Please be very basic, assume nothing, I'm really not all that bright. Thanks...Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
Hi Jim, I'm in I.T. (For my sins. Well their must be some price to pay for owning an Esprit) and specialise in Internet Apps and Security. I'd be more than willing to guide through the wonders of creating web pages, advise on software to use and even setup the basic site and templates for you.
If you are interested then mail me off list.
How do you gain internet access at the moment. Is it through a private ISP account and do you get web space. If not its no big deal as you always use a hosting service which also give you email etc. Expect to pay around £20/$35 for 500Mb with cgi/FrontPage etc per year.
Of course if you only wish to publish a few documents you could create them in word or what ever you want mail them to me and I'll host them for you.
Steve
If you are interested then mail me off list.
How do you gain internet access at the moment. Is it through a private ISP account and do you get web space. If not its no big deal as you always use a hosting service which also give you email etc. Expect to pay around £20/$35 for 500Mb with cgi/FrontPage etc per year.
Of course if you only wish to publish a few documents you could create them in word or what ever you want mail them to me and I'll host them for you.
Steve
Hi Jim,
and thanks again for the info... I have had another Lotus fan educate me as to the 5th gear addition to the Citroen box (he also agreed that it is "somewhat knotchy" to shift as the later Renault). So I pre-mesured the gear lube amount, drained the box (and left it on level ground with the plug out for about 4 hours), and filled it. I replaced the "level plug" and left it overnight. The next morning I removed the level plug - expecting no dripping - but the gear lube dripped as before (???). I drove have driven it a day or two at this point, and when the level plug is removed... a slight drip occurs. I am afraid to overfill it...
Could be I simply miss measured... Whats your opinion of Slightly overfilled vs. slightly underfilled?
Thanks again,
Cameron
PS...and Steve... I am also in IT (for clinical software applications). I was wonder if you could answer a question:
WHAT, WHAT, did we do in past lives for this work??? I started off at the age of 5 wanting to be a beach bumb with a great car collection!!! Hahahaha...
Drive topless!!!
>> Edited by autocross7 on Monday 21st July 01:36
and thanks again for the info... I have had another Lotus fan educate me as to the 5th gear addition to the Citroen box (he also agreed that it is "somewhat knotchy" to shift as the later Renault). So I pre-mesured the gear lube amount, drained the box (and left it on level ground with the plug out for about 4 hours), and filled it. I replaced the "level plug" and left it overnight. The next morning I removed the level plug - expecting no dripping - but the gear lube dripped as before (???). I drove have driven it a day or two at this point, and when the level plug is removed... a slight drip occurs. I am afraid to overfill it...
Could be I simply miss measured... Whats your opinion of Slightly overfilled vs. slightly underfilled?
Thanks again,
Cameron
PS...and Steve... I am also in IT (for clinical software applications). I was wonder if you could answer a question:
WHAT, WHAT, did we do in past lives for this work??? I started off at the age of 5 wanting to be a beach bumb with a great car collection!!! Hahahaha...
Drive topless!!!
>> Edited by autocross7 on Monday 21st July 01:36
Hi Guys!
According to Lotus the reccomended oil for the Renault Alpine gearbox on the Esprit is Castrol TAF-X 95W/90. Considering that the final drive is incorporated in the box I asked why a GL-5 oil isn't required (TAF-X is GL-4). I suggetsed that mabye Castol SAF-X 90W/140 would be better. According to them the TAF-X is the oil tested to work best in this application. We have to remember that the oil should not only support lubrication and cooling of the gears but also to support good performance of the syncs. Personally I have no sync problems, specially on 3,4 & 5:th gears where the syncs are of a diffeternt type (Borg-Warner) than those on the 1 & 2:nd gears (inverted-cone). Originally the ONLY oil approved for the Renault transmission was the Mobil SHC 630M. However this oil is no longer available and the 630 without the "M" is not compatible.
Are you absolutly sure that your clutch is operating correctly? An easy test is to push down the clutch and engage the reverse (car standing still), there may be saome noise if you don't engage another gear first. The reason for using reverse is that it is unsynced. If you do this using for instance the 1:st gear instead it is possible that the sync will do the job and stop the movment of the axis. Reverse, however, will immediatly reveal if there is a problem. Disengage the reverse but do not lift the pedal and wait for a few seconds, then engage reverse again. If you get noise from the gearteeth now you have a rotating primary shaft i.e. the shaft is beeing driven by the clutch even though you disengaged it. In this case the reason can be either:
1. Air in the clutch-system (disaster for correct operation).
2. Wrong adjusted input-shaft to the master cylinder either preventing a full travel of the plunger alt. not releasing fully.
3. Wrong adjusted shaft on the slave-cylinder preventing a full travel of the plunger.
4. Bad conditioned rubber sealings in the master/slave cylinders. Specially the seal towards the oil reservoir in the master cylinder is critical).
5. "Red-hose"-problem (The hose expanding instead of transfering the movement from master to slave cylinder)
If your car is 10 years old and the cylinders are never overhauled it's probably time to do so.
As lubricant for the Renault-Alpine gearbox on the older Esprit I strongly recommend Castrol SAF-X 90W/140. This is a GL-5+ transmission oil that superseeds the requirements for this gearbox. Syncing also works perfect.
Volumes: The volume of oil in the Renaul-Alpine gearbox should be approx 3 litres. Fill through the hole in the side as described above. If the oil isn't like syrup it fills the whole box instantly and there will be no need for topping up later. Take caution to not overtightening the filler/drain plugs. The threads are conical and the plug will go a little further into the casting for every time it is tightenig. Don't use any sealing or threadlock since the desigt is "self-sealing". You will only curse yourself the next time you will change oil and can't get th plug out.
Best regards /Lasse, Esprit Turbo SE
>> Edited by Lasse on Monday 21st July 14:07
>> Edited by Lasse on Monday 21st July 14:10
According to Lotus the reccomended oil for the Renault Alpine gearbox on the Esprit is Castrol TAF-X 95W/90. Considering that the final drive is incorporated in the box I asked why a GL-5 oil isn't required (TAF-X is GL-4). I suggetsed that mabye Castol SAF-X 90W/140 would be better. According to them the TAF-X is the oil tested to work best in this application. We have to remember that the oil should not only support lubrication and cooling of the gears but also to support good performance of the syncs. Personally I have no sync problems, specially on 3,4 & 5:th gears where the syncs are of a diffeternt type (Borg-Warner) than those on the 1 & 2:nd gears (inverted-cone). Originally the ONLY oil approved for the Renault transmission was the Mobil SHC 630M. However this oil is no longer available and the 630 without the "M" is not compatible.
Are you absolutly sure that your clutch is operating correctly? An easy test is to push down the clutch and engage the reverse (car standing still), there may be saome noise if you don't engage another gear first. The reason for using reverse is that it is unsynced. If you do this using for instance the 1:st gear instead it is possible that the sync will do the job and stop the movment of the axis. Reverse, however, will immediatly reveal if there is a problem. Disengage the reverse but do not lift the pedal and wait for a few seconds, then engage reverse again. If you get noise from the gearteeth now you have a rotating primary shaft i.e. the shaft is beeing driven by the clutch even though you disengaged it. In this case the reason can be either:
1. Air in the clutch-system (disaster for correct operation).
2. Wrong adjusted input-shaft to the master cylinder either preventing a full travel of the plunger alt. not releasing fully.
3. Wrong adjusted shaft on the slave-cylinder preventing a full travel of the plunger.
4. Bad conditioned rubber sealings in the master/slave cylinders. Specially the seal towards the oil reservoir in the master cylinder is critical).
5. "Red-hose"-problem (The hose expanding instead of transfering the movement from master to slave cylinder)
If your car is 10 years old and the cylinders are never overhauled it's probably time to do so.
As lubricant for the Renault-Alpine gearbox on the older Esprit I strongly recommend Castrol SAF-X 90W/140. This is a GL-5+ transmission oil that superseeds the requirements for this gearbox. Syncing also works perfect.
Volumes: The volume of oil in the Renaul-Alpine gearbox should be approx 3 litres. Fill through the hole in the side as described above. If the oil isn't like syrup it fills the whole box instantly and there will be no need for topping up later. Take caution to not overtightening the filler/drain plugs. The threads are conical and the plug will go a little further into the casting for every time it is tightenig. Don't use any sealing or threadlock since the desigt is "self-sealing". You will only curse yourself the next time you will change oil and can't get th plug out.
Best regards /Lasse, Esprit Turbo SE
>> Edited by Lasse on Monday 21st July 14:07
>> Edited by Lasse on Monday 21st July 14:10
autocross7 said:
Hi Jim,
and thanks again for the info... I have had another Lotus fan educate me as to the 5th gear addition to the Citroen box (he also agreed that it is "somewhat knotchy" to shift as the later Renault). So I pre-mesured the gear lube amount, drained the box (and left it on level ground with the plug out for about 4 hours), and filled it. I replaced the "level plug" and left it overnight. The next morning I removed the level plug - expecting no dripping - but the gear lube dripped as before (???). I drove have driven it a day or two at this point, and when the level plug is removed... a slight drip occurs. I am afraid to overfill it...
Could be I simply miss measured... Whats your opinion of Slightly overfilled vs. slightly underfilled?
Thanks again,
Cameron
>> Edited by autocross7 on Monday 21st July 01:36
Cameron,
I can only suspect that one of two things happened. Either you didn't have the box emptied completely (level ground is ok, but then a slight tilt forward is helpful in draining the rear extension) or as you say, perhaps your measuring wasn't accurate.
That having been said, the capacity is not identical for each of these gearboxes. Some contain more spacers than others etc. which do displace some volume, but certainly not 0.5Qt.
As far as overfilling/underfilling, Underfilling seems obvious. If underfilled, not enough lube can carry away the heat from the internals and in extreme cases, fail to provide thorough lubrication. Overfilling is serious only because the lube can 'foam' not allowing it to provide sufficient flow and can act as underfilling in that so much lube can be in suspension in the form of bubbles to leave insufficient amounts to perform properly. With the newer synthetics, this is less of a problem, but you don't want to overfill by too much. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
Hey... took the Lotus for a fun run last evening and she shifted fine (although not the toggle switch MX5). It was a BLAST! (more so than usual now that I can get her up to speed proper like!). The gear box still drips a bit from the level plug, but as the gear lube is not "pouring" out, I have opted to leave it at the level it is. It felt great shifting just before 6000RPM. Now its off to the alignment shop! She was just starting to get a bit squirly on the front around 110mph.
Thanks Jim (and everyone) for the input.
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
Thanks Jim (and everyone) for the input.
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
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