I can't believe it.

[cnh1990]

There was a sport 350 on ebay. Number 8 of 8 in the USA. The dealer did not know this and I confimed the VIN through Clyde at Lotus USA.

Someone told the dealer and he reset the auction with a higher price. The auction only had a day to go with a low buy it now price.

If it was some know it all type person that brought it to the dealers attention that he made a mistake, that would be a bunch of cr*p. How disgusting is that.

Ernest letting us know is one thing (which is a good thing), some big mouth contacting the dealer and killing a good deal that might possibly might have gone lower in negotiations is another.

Calvin

>>> Edited by cnh1990 on Thursday 4th September 19:57

[lotusguy]

cnh1990 said:

There was a sport 350 on ebay. Number 8 of 8 in the USA. The dealer did not know this and I confimed the VIN through Clyde at Lotus USA. Someone told the dealer and he reset the auction with a higher price. The auction only had a day to go with a low buy it now price. If it was some know it all type person that brought it to the dealers attention that he made a mistake, that would be a bunch of cr*p. How disgusting is that. Ernest letting us know is one thing (which is a good thing), some big mouth contacting the dealer and killing a good deal that might possibly might have gone lower in negotiations is another. Calvin >>> Edited by cnh1990 on Thursday 4th September 19:57

Calvin,

That sucks. But, I am against notifying the list of anything which is currently on eBay. My reasoning is this: Bargains, deals and rarities can often be found by those who are diligent and they are rewarded for their efforts by getting a favorable price for their merchandise. The playing field is level for all who make a trip to the list, everyone has an even chance.

But, once some know-it-all (your words), broadcasts an item to the list, a bidding frenzy often ensues, unleveling the playing field and biasing it well in favor of the seller, who often gets much more than the part or item is worth or should fetch. It removes any reward or incentive for those who regularly put in the work by visiting the auction regularly.

It's as if these persons act unwittingly on the seller's behalf by supplying a whole rank of bidders who would have otherwise not been party to the auction at all. I have seen the price of some items and parts exceed their normal retail price as a result of these announcements.

People may think they are helping fellow owners, but most assuredly they are hurting many more. I have personally suffered as a result of this practice numerous times and have also tracked the bidding times relative to an item's disclosure time to the list. The correlation of these times between when the announcement is made and the increase in number of bids and price is uncontestable.

I realize we live in an argueably unrestricted and free society, so there is no way to prevent people from doing this. I simply wish they would keep it to themselves for the reasons I have stated, and consider the harmful effect it has to others. If you spot an item you need/want on eBay or similar auction, bid on it, if you don't want it, keep it to yourself and preserve the bargain nature of this auction system. Happy Motoring!...Jim'85TE

>> Edited by lotusguy on Friday 5th September 13:59

[sanj]

lotusguy said:

That sucks. But, I am against notifying the list of anything which is currently on eBay.

I'm with Jim on this one 100%. All you're doing bringing it to the list's attention is widening the competition. As far as the Sport 350 goes, maybe the dealer saw the posting. Hmm....

Cheers,
Sanj

[ErnestM]

sorry gang. I shall repent and sin no more.



ErnestM

[lotusguy]

ErnestM said:

sorry gang. I shall repent and sin no more. ErnestM

Ernest,

I wasn't singling you out on this, just trying to get my point across to the list at large. I know that people's intentions are benign in giving this kind of info to the list, but, in point of fact, it's often not benign at all, but unintentionally hurtful.

'Course I'm just waiting for the day when some mechanic or his wife gets on the list and chastises me for the technical advise I sometimes give, saying I'm taking food from their children's mouths... Oh well, child obesity is an ever increasing problem anyway ...Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE

[ErnestM]

No harm, Jim. I understand. I thought maybe there was something wrong with the car and somebody on the list might know about it. It didn't help my suspicions when I clicked on the "free car fax report" and it came up as a Porsche

ErnestM

[cnh1990]

ErnestM said:

No harm, It didn't help my suspicions when I clicked on the "free car fax report" and it came up as a Porsche ErnestM

I did the same thing and went to the dealer website and they had a correct link for the carfax. It is indeed a correct car.

Calvin

[chrislotusatl]

It is kind of ironic though that everyone feels compelled to write a million emails when the add is innocently erroneous by pure accident but now you are saying that you would not do the converse? I just wonder why you would be so willing to "help" a dealer with telling him his car is not what he says it is but when the dealer unknowingly has something special you try to hide it. Oh well, not a big deal but I just found that a little bit odd. I am sure someone is going to jump down my throat for this but I just wanted to ask the question. Hope everyone is well.

Chris

[emiller1]

I would stay completely away from this car, unless you want to start an expensive restoration project. If you want the details, contact Harry at Viking Motorsports (www.vikingmotorsports.com). This car has not had stellar history...I wanted the car and began to do research on it, but I'm staying clearly away form it. IMOHP, this car is probably worth no more than $30k.

[madmike]

I disagree with Jim and Sanj on this one.

The list is more than just a random bunch of dudes...a lot of people have made legitimate friends through this board and the Yahoo list.

And I for one, would not be driving the fantastic car I do today had Ernest not jammed his nose into my business and pointed out that a car was about to go up for sale.

Often times when people bring eBay items to the lists attention, it isn't just about getting the deal, it's about finding an item or car, period. Yes, Jim, I sympathize if you are one of the folks who constantly scan eBay for bargains. But many of us don't have the time for that, so we should be left out in the cold when our friends know we're looking for something?

I just don't see it that way.

And another point, often the notices about eBay items are about verifying quality and accuracy. And it is also a great tool to evaluate the worth of our cars.

If everyone starts getting Sport350s cheap only because noone noticed they were for sale, it would impact other cars. However, if more bidders show up, and a bdding war ensues, that can only help to reverse the trend of rampant devaluation of Lotus in general.

My two cents.

[ErnestM]

emiller1 said:

I would stay completely away from this car, unless you want to start an expensive restoration project. If you want the details, contact Harry at Viking Motorsports (www.vikingmotorsports.com). This car has not had stellar history...I wanted the car and began to do research on it, but I'm staying clearly away form it. IMOHP, this car is probably worth no more than $30k.

That's the sort of thing I was looking forward. I don't want somebody's first Lotus to be a financial nightmare. It soils the reputation of the marque when somebody pronounces "all Lotus (es) are crap" just because the one that they purchased was not checked out good ahead of time...

...I certainly do understand the other point of view as well. Suffice to say, if it was just a set of wheels or something, I probably would have just emailed somebody direct (if I knew they were looking), but on something this big, I just wouldn't want anyone to buy something like that and throw money away...

ErnestM

[sanj]

madmike said:

I disagree with Jim and Sanj on this one. The list is more than just a random bunch of dudes...a lot of people have made legitimate friends through this board and the Yahoo list.

I don't have an issue with someone pointing out an auction to a friend, if it is done privately. Telling another 1200 people really only helps the seller.

Tipping the list off to a potential problem car is a different matter, of course.

As far as the Sport 350 goes, I don't personally feel they are worth much more than another V8, given that the US cars are *not* really Sport 350's anyway, thus IMHO it made no difference whether or not the dealer knew what he had. From what I've learned about this particular car, everyone is lucky the price got jacked up, now hopefully none of our little band of dudes will buy it.

Cheers,
Sanj

{edited for a typo}

>> Edited by sanj on Friday 5th September 19:20

[sanj]

cnh1990 said:

There was a sport 350 on ebay. Number 8 of 8 in the USA. The dealer did not know this and I confimed the VIN through Clyde at Lotus USA. Someone told the dealer and he reset the auction with a higher price. The auction only had a day to go with a low buy it now price.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he only added $1000 to the Buy It Now price and updated the description and some of the hype, not that big a deal...

Cheers,
Sanj

{edited for a typo}

>> Edited by sanj on Friday 5th September 19:34

[billsport350]

Well there are no more differences now, because everything that was on the sport350 was incorporated to the regular lineup. But it did originally have the better brake setup, different interior, better rims, and higher torque ECU as well as the few visual differences. I only write this because I own one of the eight and would like to feel a little priveledged(sp?). Anyway, mine is nowhere near stock anymore so it really doesn't matter.

My take on the ebay is I would rather someone mention something because I am looking at ebay everyday or for that matter each and every week. Sometimes it is better to use the buy now option and then again you can also email the seller off line. So keep those posts coming. If you end up spending more than what its worth, whose fault is that? Also the fact that there is more demand will keep the prices up which is good to the rest of us owners

[madmike]

Here here.

BTW, this was the only time I disagreed with Sanj

Have I told you lately how absolutely fantastic your 330HP chip and BOV have been performing?!?! I just got back from driving her home from work...astounding. I don't imagine ever going back to the S4s chip.

Great stuff, man (or, dude, if you prefer )

[sanj]

billsport350 said:

Well there are no more differences now, because everything that was on the sport350 was incorporated to the regular lineup. But it did originally have the better brake setup, different interior, better rims, and higher torque ECU as well as the few visual differences. I only write this because I own one of the eight and would like to feel a little priveledged(sp?)

You *should* feel privileged, I didn't mean to put down the 350 in any way. It is still special, even stock, I was really just questioning whether the dealer's knowledge or lack thereof should make that much difference in the asking price, as the original poster suggested. I'll shut up now...

Cheers,
Sanj

[billsport350]

I was only joking SanJ Every Esprit is special and anyone who has one should feel honored and priveleged.

[sanj]

billsport350 said:

I was only joking SanJ Every Esprit is special and anyone who has one should feel honored and priveleged.

Hi Bill,

I feel privileged that now I know 3 of the owners of the 7 remaining Sport 350's in the US!

Cheers,
Sanj

>> Edited by sanj on Saturday 6th September 02:16

[lotusguy]

madmike said:

I disagree with Jim and Sanj on this one. The list is more than just a random bunch of dudes...a lot of people have made legitimate friends through this board and the Yahoo list. Agreed, but then, the information should be shared offlist so as not to alert a cadre of price driving bidders, which is almost always the case. You may have another friend on the list who, unbeknown to you is watching an item and you unwittingly hurt them by broadcasting the info on the list. There is some sense of irresponsibility to this. There are many more lurkers on this list than active contributors, but when you address one of the more active, you're speaking to them all. After the announcement, several bidders place a single bid and then drop out of the auction, only to have raised the price for more serious bidders. This only benefits the seller, no one else. And I for one, would not be driving the fantastic car I do today had Ernest not jammed his nose into my business and pointed out that a car was about to go up for sale. Again, Fantastic, but an offlist msg. will serve this purpose without starting a bidding frenzy which only aids the seller. Often times when people bring eBay items to the lists attention, it isn't just about getting the deal, it's about finding an item or car, period. Yes, Jim, I sympathize if you are one of the folks who constantly scan eBay for bargains. But many of us don't have the time for that, so we should be left out in the cold when our friends know we're looking for something? Well again, offlist messaging serves the desired purpose. And, if you are too busy, lazy or whatever to stay in touch with what's current on eBay, yes, you should be left out. That is the choice you made by not visiting the auction. I check the offerings every 3 days or so, takes five minutes, your excuse is pretty lame I think. Also, I do not chase an item beyond what I think I will have to pay to win it from the outset. If/when the price exceeds this pre-set amount, I drop out. Also, I do not bid until the final day, so I may be watching an item and none of my friends know this. When a bidding frenzy occurs, I simply do not bid. If someone legitimately outbids me, then of course the item should go to them. An example of the damage of a bidding frenzy was the westfield 11 which sold a week or so ago. They go for between $8k-$10k, there were two others for sale at other sites the same time which fell into that range. I know the seller and his reserve was set at $8k. Due to announcements on several lists, a bidding frenzy ensued and the car went for $19k..!! Great for the seller, but the others went for their normal $8-$10K. The buyer will have to pass the car down to an heir before realizing a gain on the thing, just because he paid too much. Was he stupid, maybe, but the fact remains that the price should have never climbed so high and was raised artificially, not because of any value or rarity. If someone has a question about a specific car, they can either direct an offlist msg. to any number of frequent listers or risk starting a bidding frenzy on their 'own' item. Somewhat akin to shooting one's own foot I should think. I just don't see it that way. Obviously, either that or contrariness is just happening today And another point, often the notices about eBay items are about verifying quality and accuracy. And it is also a great tool to evaluate the worth of our cars. Don't follow this one at all. Why is it so important to find accuracy in an item you have no intention to bid on? Maybe a little less of that and you'd have those five minutes 2-3 times a week to stay current. The worth of these cars is determined by two factors, the loan value a bank places on them and the setpoint of a price which will secure a buyer, everything else is irrelevant. If everyone starts getting Sport350s cheap only because noone noticed they were for sale, it would impact other cars. However, if more bidders show up, and a bdding war ensues, that can only help to reverse the trend of rampant devaluation of Lotus in general. Huh...??? What School of Economics is that line of reasoning from? All commodities go for a range of prices which are determined much more by the supply/demand curve and how motivated the seller is. That is to say, do they need to liquidate the asset immediately or can they afford to wait for a buyer at a higher price. Also, the marketplace is strewn with people getting good deals on merchandise because the seller never knew what they had or the proper value of it. This does not depress the value of other gems, art, collectables or cars, why should a lotus be any different? My two cents.

Which you could have gotten for $0.01 if you'd been tracking eBay...lol Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE

[britten_mark]

I cant believe what I'm reading here. I thought this was the INFORMATION super highway! Once something's on the net, it's out there and fair game for people to do with as they wish.

I'm on EBAY a lot, and gazumping is just an occupational hazard. I'm sure if the boys complaining over this were selling something it would be a different matter altogether. Certainly I would not say anything to benefit some shark-nosed dealer, but anyone on Pistonheads or UKLotusEsprit is OK by me.

Keeping each other informed is what these forums are all about. When I was looking for my GT3 early this year, I posted a plea for information on the whereabouts of any suitable cars that met my criteria. I got quite a few replies, but when one of the very people that replied found the exact match at a bargain price he looked at it for himself (fair enough) but once he had decided against it did not alert me or other listers (not very fair). The end result was I ended up coughing £2500 more than I could have got it for, and the seller got £1000 less than he wanted when he offloaded it to the aforementioned Great White Garages & Co. The only winner? Mr. Basking, the sheepskin wearing proprieter.

Yes, we all have sour grapes somewhere, we all get scammed sometimes, but it's swings and roundabouts, isn't it? When I saw a set of GT3 seats on Ebay, I fancied them for myself but would still have alerted other listers. Only when I saw the only bidder was non other than fellow lister and email pen-pal Superdave did I decide to do neither. Its all about freedom and personal choice, this net thing.

Cheers
Mark