SE vs S4(s) vs V8
Discussion
Hail lotus fans! 
Just getting opinions on the SE vs. S4(s) vs. V8 cars. I am considering getting back into an Esprit (sold my 88 few months back), but wanted to move up to a SE at least this time around.
I like the fact that the S4 has the power steering, but am not as crazy about the mid-wing design and the wheels. Of course, the S4s is uber-nice, but they are still pretty high (40kish?) on the totem. V8's look very good IMHO, but I'm concerned with the 4cyl vs V8 when it comes to service time. One good thing the V8 has going for it is my fav color.. Azure Blue
The SE is one of the best looking cars to me, but doesn't seem as "finished" as the newer cars (been hanging around ferrari's too long).
Overall, what is the best car for the money at the current time? What kind of performance would one expect from an SE over the older non-intercooled cars? V8 performance greater overall than the S4?
Thanks! Happy Lotusing.
James
Just getting opinions on the SE vs. S4(s) vs. V8 cars. I am considering getting back into an Esprit (sold my 88 few months back), but wanted to move up to a SE at least this time around.
I like the fact that the S4 has the power steering, but am not as crazy about the mid-wing design and the wheels. Of course, the S4s is uber-nice, but they are still pretty high (40kish?) on the totem. V8's look very good IMHO, but I'm concerned with the 4cyl vs V8 when it comes to service time. One good thing the V8 has going for it is my fav color.. Azure Blue
The SE is one of the best looking cars to me, but doesn't seem as "finished" as the newer cars (been hanging around ferrari's too long).
Overall, what is the best car for the money at the current time? What kind of performance would one expect from an SE over the older non-intercooled cars? V8 performance greater overall than the S4?
Thanks! Happy Lotusing.
James
I went through this same analysis about six months ago. Of course an S4S would be the Holy Grail, but they are hard to find and nearly as expensive as an early V8.
I don't like the S4 midwing either, but the interior more than makes up for it. At least it is semi-modern.The handling is supposedly better than an SE which is of course a great plus, but hard to tell on test drives. SE does push I have found out over the last few months, and I plan to correct that with the S4 struts/shocks.
I also compared SEs to the few non-SE turbos here in the US. I did find the performance difference significant; more so than the difference between (in 0-100 driving) a V8 and an S4. I ruled out the non-SEs.
As this was my first Esprit, I decided that a combination of price and performance would make a late SE the best choice. If I decided I am REALLY into these cars after living with it for a while, I would search out an S4S (which I prefer a bit over the V8s). Price sealed the deal. You can get good SEs for as low as mid-20s. I bought a pristine 93.5 with the cool black revolution wheels for $30k and the C service thrown in. I'm very happy. In a few years, I may seek out an S4S as I do love the cars, but for me this was about a perfect find.
Jeff
I don't like the S4 midwing either, but the interior more than makes up for it. At least it is semi-modern.The handling is supposedly better than an SE which is of course a great plus, but hard to tell on test drives. SE does push I have found out over the last few months, and I plan to correct that with the S4 struts/shocks.
I also compared SEs to the few non-SE turbos here in the US. I did find the performance difference significant; more so than the difference between (in 0-100 driving) a V8 and an S4. I ruled out the non-SEs.
As this was my first Esprit, I decided that a combination of price and performance would make a late SE the best choice. If I decided I am REALLY into these cars after living with it for a while, I would search out an S4S (which I prefer a bit over the V8s). Price sealed the deal. You can get good SEs for as low as mid-20s. I bought a pristine 93.5 with the cool black revolution wheels for $30k and the C service thrown in. I'm very happy. In a few years, I may seek out an S4S as I do love the cars, but for me this was about a perfect find.
Jeff
Good info, thanks! There is a 93.5 Black SE w/ the black rims on Ebay for 25K buy it now. Good deal? Assuming the record checked out and such.
My 88 was quick, but I think the SE/S4 cars 50+ extra HP and sustained boost levels will make it much quicker.
It's too bad they never made an Azure blue SE, or I'd buy one in a heart beat
James
My 88 was quick, but I think the SE/S4 cars 50+ extra HP and sustained boost levels will make it much quicker.
It's too bad they never made an Azure blue SE, or I'd buy one in a heart beat
James
I haven't spoken with the seller of the 93.5 on ebay, BUT, my advice to you is run far far away...
I am in the same boat as you. I have secured the money and I am looking high and low and trying to decide exactly what I want vs what I can afford. That car on ebay was listed last week also, and I was intrested. Has the interior of the the S4 (nice), exterior of SE (nice, but would prefer the rounded look of the S4), and has larger SE style wing (better than the mid wing, but not as nice as the S4s). They didn't list a buy it now price then, so I was unsure of how high the bid would go. I ran a Carfax on it and found that it was issued a salvage title in Utah after two months of its first sale! It was then authorized a rebuild title, that it carries now.
The car looks nice, but I can not see paying that price for the car. The last auction ended basically at the bid it is at right now, $20,600. I don't know what happened in the end. I had looked at it 10 hrs before the close and it hadn't changed. I come in a day or two later and see it listed again...
Just my bit of advice. I have the Carfax if you want a link to it.
Mike
P.S. Hold off a couple of weeks before you buy. It is hard enough finding the car I want without people competing with me! (just kidding)
I am in the same boat as you. I have secured the money and I am looking high and low and trying to decide exactly what I want vs what I can afford. That car on ebay was listed last week also, and I was intrested. Has the interior of the the S4 (nice), exterior of SE (nice, but would prefer the rounded look of the S4), and has larger SE style wing (better than the mid wing, but not as nice as the S4s). They didn't list a buy it now price then, so I was unsure of how high the bid would go. I ran a Carfax on it and found that it was issued a salvage title in Utah after two months of its first sale! It was then authorized a rebuild title, that it carries now.
The car looks nice, but I can not see paying that price for the car. The last auction ended basically at the bid it is at right now, $20,600. I don't know what happened in the end. I had looked at it 10 hrs before the close and it hadn't changed. I come in a day or two later and see it listed again...
Just my bit of advice. I have the Carfax if you want a link to it.
Mike
P.S. Hold off a couple of weeks before you buy. It is hard enough finding the car I want without people competing with me! (just kidding)
I went through this whole issue last year when I made my purchase. I would've been happy with an SE but when I found out I could afford the S4, that is what I went for. Go for what you can afford. I have seen S4s go for high 30s, USD. Not too bad if you got that kind of scratch. The SE and S4 are comparable in performance. Performance shouldn't come into play here though since anything can be made faster. Exhaust, chips, intake, turbos, you can make anything fast/handle well/brake better. Afford the best base you can start with. The S4 has the rounded edges and power steering over the SE and while many do not like the mid wing, I do. I think the interior is sweet as hell, love the carbon fiber and updated interior of the S4. Mine has the Nardi wheel installed and V8 shifter which is a nice touch as well. I definitely prefer the rims of the S4 over the SE rims and actually do not like the 5 star S4s rims... just me but I feel the S4s rims don't quite "fit", but that is, again, replaceable and/or upgradable and open to one's own opinion.
If I had the money for a V8, I would bypass it for the S4s. I am a 4 cylinder guy at heart and while the V8 is nice, the S4s is "it" for me. It is "the" Esprit in my eyes and has it all. The V8 is nice and fast and beautiful but the S4s holds a special place in my heart. I can sit here and say that in a few years I may upgrade to one but I'd be lying. I am really, REALLY happy with my S4 and think I will keep it for a long, long time.
>> Edited by NJGSX96 on Wednesday 25th February 03:46
If I had the money for a V8, I would bypass it for the S4s. I am a 4 cylinder guy at heart and while the V8 is nice, the S4s is "it" for me. It is "the" Esprit in my eyes and has it all. The V8 is nice and fast and beautiful but the S4s holds a special place in my heart. I can sit here and say that in a few years I may upgrade to one but I'd be lying. I am really, REALLY happy with my S4 and think I will keep it for a long, long time.
>> Edited by NJGSX96 on Wednesday 25th February 03:46
I wanted an Esprit for more than 20 years, and watched eBay (among other places) for nearly 3 before I found mine last year. Luckily, it was located nearby, and it was an S4S at what I thought was a good price. The only thing I didn't get was the my ideal color...azure blue. I agree with Kylie, it's the best looking color of them all. There's an azure blue 2003.5 at the dealer in Scottsdale that I would love to have, I just wouldn't love the payments! Ernest, if you're watching...love that car of yours man!
An Esprit is well worth the wait! (easy for me to say now)
Good luck with your search!
Bill
'95 S4S
An Esprit is well worth the wait! (easy for me to say now)
Good luck with your search!
Bill
'95 S4S
Hi,
I think performance really should be a very small consideration. Anyone here who has put SE or above against each other will know that in the real world there is not a fat lot in it. An SE will certainly not be flagging behind a V8, one bad gear change could make the difference in the running!
For me, I seem to find myself dissagreeing with most about the S4 spoiler - I think the mid mounted spoiler is the best of the lot - hence why I bought an S4.
My next Esprit will be an S4s with S4 spoiler and the sport 350 wheels - that will be the perfect combination for me.
I am a 4 banger at heart, however I do love the V8's - it's purely personal preference.
If I had the money - I'd have both!
I still like the fact that when people ask what size the engine is and you say 2.2, there face drops... until you tell them that "little" 2.2 can hit 60 in well under 5 seconds and kicks out over 300bhp as standard....
JC
I think performance really should be a very small consideration. Anyone here who has put SE or above against each other will know that in the real world there is not a fat lot in it. An SE will certainly not be flagging behind a V8, one bad gear change could make the difference in the running!
For me, I seem to find myself dissagreeing with most about the S4 spoiler - I think the mid mounted spoiler is the best of the lot - hence why I bought an S4.
My next Esprit will be an S4s with S4 spoiler and the sport 350 wheels - that will be the perfect combination for me.
I am a 4 banger at heart, however I do love the V8's - it's purely personal preference.
If I had the money - I'd have both!
I still like the fact that when people ask what size the engine is and you say 2.2, there face drops... until you tell them that "little" 2.2 can hit 60 in well under 5 seconds and kicks out over 300bhp as standard....
JC
When I was looking for an Esprit last year I wanted to get an S4 or S4s. After awhile I became "enlightened" from a friend and started looking for SE's or S4s. For me the interior styling was fine across the board and the exterior was too. All I wanted was a good solid foundation to start working with, driving, and enjoying the car through tinkering with it etc.
So, I ended up getting an SE in good condition and working with it. For much less money you can get a solid car and with a little money it can outperform an S4s easily and run with V8s. Brakes, turbos, chips, exhaust, etc. are relatively inexpensive, especially if you do the wrenching. Plus, I didn't want power steering, just something else to work on, and the early SE's became even more attractive.
Having said that I now like the S4s/V8 look a lot but not enough to change. My only negative, and it isn't that bad, comment on the SE is I don't like the glass rear. I prefer the rear with no glass, as in S4, but it isn't that big of a deal. In fact, as mentioned here on this board it can easily be corrected with a little bit of body work if one were so enclined.
No matter - jump in and get one - you'll enjoy it and welcome to the group!
R
So, I ended up getting an SE in good condition and working with it. For much less money you can get a solid car and with a little money it can outperform an S4s easily and run with V8s. Brakes, turbos, chips, exhaust, etc. are relatively inexpensive, especially if you do the wrenching. Plus, I didn't want power steering, just something else to work on, and the early SE's became even more attractive.
Having said that I now like the S4s/V8 look a lot but not enough to change. My only negative, and it isn't that bad, comment on the SE is I don't like the glass rear. I prefer the rear with no glass, as in S4, but it isn't that big of a deal. In fact, as mentioned here on this board it can easily be corrected with a little bit of body work if one were so enclined.
No matter - jump in and get one - you'll enjoy it and welcome to the group!
R
I enjoyed my 88 Esprit Turbo (black/tan, bosch injected), but I had some fitment issues with it. I was all geared up to buy a new momo wheel, even machined the adaptor plate to bring it 1" away from my knees (which is all I needed to be a perfect fit). But alass... the 88's column is different than the 89+ cars, so that was scrapped.
Then I got the bosch system tuned up. I dislike bosch systems, after working on Ferrari and then my Lotus. I wished at that point I had moved up to an GM EFI car just because I am very familiar with "modern" efi and would have had a much easier time.
Right now, I was looking at buying a Ferrari 550 (99-00). Biggest problem is that I enjoy tinkering with cars and moding them. I'd be affraid to do too much to a 550 LOL! My house that I am building has 7 bays worth of garage space (with lift), and I really enjoy working on my cars. Plus, I could buy another Viper and nice Lotus, and still have a ton of coin left in my pocket over the 550! But, only time will tell.
I need to go for a ride in someones SE. I'm in the Greenville, SC area, and I know Brian in atlanta is looking for someone right now willing to give me a quick run
James
Then I got the bosch system tuned up. I dislike bosch systems, after working on Ferrari and then my Lotus. I wished at that point I had moved up to an GM EFI car just because I am very familiar with "modern" efi and would have had a much easier time.
Right now, I was looking at buying a Ferrari 550 (99-00). Biggest problem is that I enjoy tinkering with cars and moding them. I'd be affraid to do too much to a 550 LOL! My house that I am building has 7 bays worth of garage space (with lift), and I really enjoy working on my cars. Plus, I could buy another Viper and nice Lotus, and still have a ton of coin left in my pocket over the 550! But, only time will tell.
I need to go for a ride in someones SE. I'm in the Greenville, SC area, and I know Brian in atlanta is looking for someone right now willing to give me a quick run
James
solar said:
s4s may be quicker than an 03v8 too.
the holy grail of esprit
I have the honor of owning a piece of the Holy Grail. I will tell you that it's amazing. I flat out love it and I have no V8 envy (although the gearchange on the 98MY-On is much better).
Lotus employees agree. Ask them what the best Esprit they built was and the majority will tell you it was the S4s. Its performance is equal or better than the V8 and is better balanced.
A few years ago I predicted that the S4s would be one of the most collectible Esprits. If you look at the market now you will see that this is becoming a reality. Part of this has to do with the limited production numbers. Well over 3 times as many V8's were built than S4s'.
It is now a recognized fact that the Esprits that hold their value the most are the Sport300, X-180R, and the S4s. If you get an opportunity to own any one of these great cars I highly recommend it.
Hi,
I have the honor of owning a piece of the Holy Grail...
I will 2nd Karl's statement.
I was at the factory 3-4 years ago and the employee giving the factory tour asked when I was getting a V8. I only had my '79 JPS at the time. I told him that the V8 was out of my price range and he quickly said, "get the S4s then, it's the best we ever made."
Also, at his past LOG gathering in NY, I talked to the 2 British Lotus reps attending (one was Tony Shute & I can't remember the other's guy's name) and separately they both told me that their favorite was the S4s which they also felt was their best.
Rich Flowers
'95 S4s ...SHF63000
'79 JPS #040
I have the honor of owning a piece of the Holy Grail...
I will 2nd Karl's statement.
I was at the factory 3-4 years ago and the employee giving the factory tour asked when I was getting a V8. I only had my '79 JPS at the time. I told him that the V8 was out of my price range and he quickly said, "get the S4s then, it's the best we ever made."
Also, at his past LOG gathering in NY, I talked to the 2 British Lotus reps attending (one was Tony Shute & I can't remember the other's guy's name) and separately they both told me that their favorite was the S4s which they also felt was their best.
Rich Flowers
'95 S4s ...SHF63000
'79 JPS #040
I cannot comment on the V8, but I have owned an '89 SE and currently have a '95 S4s (in Azure Blue!)
SE - Feels more urgent, has more character. More angular if you like the '80s feel! Brakes suitable only for road use. Lots of niggly problems. Parking is hard work without the power steering. I personally liked the glass back.
S4s - Quicker, but doesn't feel it. Slightly roomier interior. Power steering, Brembo brakes etc. Far, far more reliable than the SE. Looks and feels more like a luxury car (though the Germans needn't worry).
Martin,
'95 S4s.
SE - Feels more urgent, has more character. More angular if you like the '80s feel! Brakes suitable only for road use. Lots of niggly problems. Parking is hard work without the power steering. I personally liked the glass back.
S4s - Quicker, but doesn't feel it. Slightly roomier interior. Power steering, Brembo brakes etc. Far, far more reliable than the SE. Looks and feels more like a luxury car (though the Germans needn't worry).
Martin,
'95 S4s.
I am in the process of dealing on a 95 S4s and you guys are gonna make me wet my pants! It sounds great!
My only question (perhaps better suited to another thread) will be who's chip to buy which will be simplest to make work on a stock car. The 330hp number and continuous boost sure sound nice!
Thanks! I can't wait to be in the club.
Wes
My only question (perhaps better suited to another thread) will be who's chip to buy which will be simplest to make work on a stock car. The 330hp number and continuous boost sure sound nice!
Thanks! I can't wait to be in the club.
Wes
f1ace said:
I am in the process of dealing on a 95 S4s and you guys are gonna make me wet my pants! It sounds great!
My only question (perhaps better suited to another thread) will be who's chip to buy which will be simplest to make work on a stock car. The 330hp number and continuous boost sure sound nice!
Thanks! I can't wait to be in the club.
Wes
Hi Wes, is this your first Esprit? If so, I'd seriously consider not wasting your money on a chip upgrade initially.
I know of several people who have driven "performance cars" with similar or higher HP and think this will be the same. Personally I found it to be unbelievably differenct to things I'd driven perviously.
What I'm trying to say is that they never built an underpowered Esprit! Unless as I say, you are already driving Esprits and you are just upgrading, I'd still advise taking your time about changing the chip.
You'll get 10 times as many performance gains by learning how to drive the car properly than you ever will by bolt on bits. After a while sure, it's always nice to give it more of an edge than what you are used to. From my experience I'd say it would take a pretty extrodinary driver to take a modern Esprit to it's limit.
After a year of owning my Esprit - it was at LEAST twice as fast as when I bought it. Not because of any fancy mods, but because of the experience I'd gained in it. The only limiting factor on the car by the time I sold it - was still the driver. I did about 15k in mine and was still very much learning.
I'm all for modding your Esprit - I know I did, but if I had an S4s now, I wouldn't be rushing out to get it chipped - it really doesn't need it.
It's very easy to get sucked into "modding" your Esprit - everyone seems to be doing it, but the reality of it is that with our without mods the Esprit is still a phenomenally quick and able car.
This ofcourse is just my 2 euros, but I'd probably not mod my next Esprit too much. Maybe a brake upgrade and I think that would do me for a while.
Either way, it'll be your car and whether you upgrade or not, you'll no doubt enjoy it.
Just didn;t want to see you wasting money on something you may well not get the benefit out of for a while....
And if I'm honest.....I'm a little jealous...
JC
I think you're generally right, the stock HP will keep me entertained and your idea is better, it gives me something to spice things up AFTER I've become accustomed to this car.
What does tempt me now is I don't like the idea of boost cutting out after a few seconds. Perhaps in practice it won't come into play much, but it sounds like it could be irritating.
Also, the 330HP bragging rights really sound great! I mean Corvettes and Camaros around me have a lot of power, so 330HP gives me a bit more breating room.
But I think you're right, I'll drive it and learn it first. It took a while till I learnt how to make my XJS-v12 look fast too.
So what color is your S4S?
Thanks!
Wes
85 XJS
63 Ferrari 250 GTO Replica
What does tempt me now is I don't like the idea of boost cutting out after a few seconds. Perhaps in practice it won't come into play much, but it sounds like it could be irritating.
Also, the 330HP bragging rights really sound great! I mean Corvettes and Camaros around me have a lot of power, so 330HP gives me a bit more breating room.
But I think you're right, I'll drive it and learn it first. It took a while till I learnt how to make my XJS-v12 look fast too.
So what color is your S4S?
Thanks!
Wes
85 XJS
63 Ferrari 250 GTO Replica
mcurbo: I am going to look at the 93.5 Esprit that was on eBay today (black/tan). Seller ended auction early at my request. There is no physical damage to the car, but it did have an engine fire due to a fuel line break back when it was new. Insurance totaled the car, $15K was spent rebuilding the engine compartment, seller has all receipts, pictures of damage, and complete history, along with all service manuals, and a few upgrades...including a new steal braided fuel line Everything works on the car, according to the seller, except a window relay is out on the drivers side...rolls down, but not up. I don't know about you, but my opinion is, this may be a really great car for not a lot of money...I am taking some $$$ with me just in case. At 27K miles, 2-owner history, and receipts...a previous salvage title means nothing to me since the car was not wrecked, especially considering the rarity at less than 140 in the US. I will know more by tomorrow and will post detailed information.
Everything works on the car, according to the seller, except a window relay is out on the drivers side...rolls down, but not up. I don't know about you, but my opinion is, this may be a really great car for not a lot of money...I am taking some $$$ with me just in case. At 27K miles, 2-owner history, and receipts...a previous salvage title means nothing to me since the car was not wrecked, especially considering the rarity at less than 140 in the US. I will know more by tomorrow and will post detailed information.f1Ace,
Welcome to the Brotherhood!...and Sister Kylie!
What you won't know until you've actually had some seat time is that an Esprit, any Esprit, is a completely different animal than any you've previously encountered.I know that sounds like a brash statement, but you'll soon discover how true it really is.
I own a 3rd generation Esprit (1985 MY Turbo), carburettors, no intercooler or ECU, less than 250HP. Yet, when I allowed my Bro. in Law, who owns a 400+HP Muscle Car, to drive it, his only comment was: "I cannot go into work on Monday and tell the guys about this car, they just won't get it. It's more car than I have ever driven in my life!"
The best advise is that a well sorted SE is gonna be a much greater experience for you than an 'Iffy' later Gen car. If actual driving time is even 85% of the total experience, than a reliable, well cared for, earlier car will bring you much more enjoyment than any later one which is constantly in need.
While numbers are limited, be sure to take your time, don't be in a rush, as there are really plenty of them out there. This year alone at least 25 SE's, 5 S4's and 5 S4s's have been on the market and it isn't even March yet. Make sure you have a car w/ preferably good history, low miles and good documentation. The Love, whichever model you choose, is essentially a given and will come as soon as you see it parked in your own driveway. Best of Luck! Happy Motoring!... Jim'85TE
>> Edited by lotusguy on Friday 27th February 14:50
Welcome to the Brotherhood!...and Sister Kylie
! What you won't know until you've actually had some seat time is that an Esprit, any Esprit, is a completely different animal than any you've previously encountered.I know that sounds like a brash statement, but you'll soon discover how true it really is.
I own a 3rd generation Esprit (1985 MY Turbo), carburettors, no intercooler or ECU, less than 250HP. Yet, when I allowed my Bro. in Law, who owns a 400+HP Muscle Car, to drive it, his only comment was: "I cannot go into work on Monday and tell the guys about this car, they just won't get it. It's more car than I have ever driven in my life!"
The best advise is that a well sorted SE is gonna be a much greater experience for you than an 'Iffy' later Gen car. If actual driving time is even 85% of the total experience, than a reliable, well cared for, earlier car will bring you much more enjoyment than any later one which is constantly in need.
While numbers are limited, be sure to take your time, don't be in a rush, as there are really plenty of them out there. This year alone at least 25 SE's, 5 S4's and 5 S4s's have been on the market and it isn't even March yet. Make sure you have a car w/ preferably good history, low miles and good documentation. The Love, whichever model you choose, is essentially a given and will come as soon as you see it parked in your own driveway. Best of Luck! Happy Motoring!... Jim'85TE
>> Edited by lotusguy on Friday 27th February 14:50
I agree with RyanSheldon. I think it's easy to tell someone to pass on a car but it's not like one can choose the year and color and just go out and buy one. I dealt with a single owner car owner and what a jerk, couldn't get any service history out of the guy, so just being a single owner isn't a silver bullet. Someone has to buy the repaired cars too, and I think the longer the new owner keeps the car the more the value goes up since the next owner can then ask you how the car's been.
I like the other comment about how they drive "The guys....they just won't get it." I just like the way that sounds. Fortunately I'm a very capable driver so I'm looking forward to scareing the crap out of a few of my passengers. I'll tell you if I get mine in about a week or two.
Wes
>> Edited by f1ace on Friday 27th February 20:56
I like the other comment about how they drive "The guys....they just won't get it." I just like the way that sounds. Fortunately I'm a very capable driver so I'm looking forward to scareing the crap out of a few of my passengers. I'll tell you if I get mine in about a week or two.
Wes
>> Edited by f1ace on Friday 27th February 20:56
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