Balancing carbs....
Balancing carbs....
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wedg1e

Original Poster:

27,011 posts

288 months

Sunday 21st March 2004
quotequote all
You know how it is: you get halfway through one job and another springs to mind!
I had a mate round and was showing him the workings of the Esprit. He thought the exhaust stank rather badly (which I've been thinking since I bought the car), which led rather smoothly to 'where did I put the mercury gauges and CO analyser?'.
Well, the gauges were easy enough, but the CO meter took some finding because I'd hurriedly stashed it somewhere safe and couldn't find it. The reason I couldn't find it was that every time I moved a certain thing to look for it, the certain thing covered up the bloody CO meter...
Anyway, once I'd stopped (next-door's cat was looking at me rather strangely), I setup the CO meter and identified the blanking plugs on the carbs for the gauge connections.
Started her up, and the mercury columns were all over the place. I've seen more stability in my ex-wives, and that's saying something
Now I'd had a quick ransack of the internet, and found a couple of versions of setting-up the Dellortos.
I tried following both of them, but although I got the airflows more even, it seemed that adjusting one screw could be compensated by adjusting another!



I fiddled for a while, mixing the gauge readings with assessing what the engine sounded like it was doing, and left it at that for now.
CO is reading around 1.1%, idle speed is a lumpy 800 rpm, the airflows aren't great but they're a lot better:



And the damned exhaust still stinks...

Ian

Edited to rotate picture of gauges! Doh...

Edit: Dammit, the picture hasn't rotated... I give up...


>>> Edited by wedg1e on Sunday 21st March 21:44

dr.hess

837 posts

273 months

Sunday 21st March 2004
quotequote all
I dunno how the Dellortos get balanced, but back when I had my TC Europa with 40 DCOE's, I would balance it with a Unisyn and I had to twist the throttle shaft until the air flow balanced from one throat to another within each carb, then balance the two carbs to each other with the adjusting screw on the linkage. Then you can fiddle with mixtures.

Dr.Hess

wedg1e

Original Poster:

27,011 posts

288 months

Sunday 21st March 2004
quotequote all
dr.hess said:
I dunno how the Dellortos get balanced, but back when I had my TC Europa with 40 DCOE's, I would balance it with a Unisyn and I had to twist the throttle shaft until the air flow balanced from one throat to another within each carb, then balance the two carbs to each other with the adjusting screw on the linkage. Then you can fiddle with mixtures.

Dr.Hess


Yeah, that's pretty much the same. Probably much the same physical contortions to reach in there, too...

Ian

lotusguy

1,798 posts

280 months

Sunday 21st March 2004
quotequote all
Ian,

Set-up and tuning Dellortos is about the easiest carb work out there, much more so than webbers.

There are basically 4 steps to the process; (1.) check/set float heights (2.) adjust each barrel for optimum performance (3.) balance each carb (4.) balance the pair of carbs.

Using a Unisync tool isn't the best way to go about it as the Unisync goes into and affects the very airflow you are trying to adjust.

A CO meter isn't really very good either. There are two reasons for this; First, tuning for performance vs CO are usually two different things. Secondly, because the CO meter samples the exhaust, it is sampling the net result of all 4 carb barrels and cylinders. You could have two opposing errors cancel each other out, achieve a proper CO reading and still have lousy running carbs. In other words, you may be adjusting one carb barrel to compensate for the maladjustment of another putting them both out of whack, with the CO meter totally oblivious to it all.

The best way to tune Dellortos is by using a 4 column manometer, which I see in your pictures. I used to use an Hg manometer, but several years ago I switched to a mechanical manometer, because it is less inconvenient (smaller) and there's no Hg to worry about. It's made in the UK by Mogan and is called the CarbTune II, an excellent quality tool.

First set the float heights according to spec., 14mm I believe. Pull the carb covers, the floats are attached to the underside. Hold the carb top perpendicular to the ground, allowing the float arm to just contact the needle valve, then measure the gap between the top of the float and the underside of the carb cover, make sure to allow for the thickness of the gasket in your measurements. Adjust to the proper gap by gently bending the float arms. Be sure to check the gap on both floats.

Once the floats are properly adjusted, secure the carb covers (take care not to disturb the float heights).

Start the car and let it come to operating temp.
Then, hook up your manometer to all 4 test ports.

Start the car and set the idle at 900 using the idle speed screw to adjust the engine speed.

Close (turn clockwise all the way) all 4 air adjustment screws. Take care not to agressively tighten down, you want to avoid 'grouching' these needle screws. Note, there should only be one screw open on each carb, if not, they were previously improperly adjusted.

Next, using the idle mixture screws, adjust each barrel on a single carb (doesn't matter which) to produce the highest column on the manometer. In this entire process, the values graduated on the manometer are meaningless, you are seeking the highest column regardless of value. Take care to mind the RPMs during this process and continually adjust them back to 900RPM using the idle speed screw. Do this for all 4 individual carb barrels. All 4 air adjustment screws must remain closed for this process.

Once all 4 barrels are set to yield the highest level possible on the manometer, you will synchronize the barrels of each carb to their 'mate'. First, select a carb to balance. Note which of the two barrels produced the highest manometer column. This is the barrel you will adjust. In small increments, open the the air adjustment screw of the strongest barrel until it's column drops to match that of it's 'mate'.
Be sure to give the engine about 5 sec. between each adjustment to allow it to adapt to the new setting.

You use the stronger of the two barrels because you can weaken it, but you cannot strengthen the weaker one. Do this for each carb. When done, you will have only 1 air adjustment screw open per carb, and each carb will have two matching columns, although they will most likely not match the columns of the other carb. Again, be mindful to hold engine speed to 900RPMs throughout this entire adjustment.

Finally, you are going balance the two carbs to each other. This is done using the carb balance screw on the linkage between the two carbs, engine running at 900 RPMs. Once again, you must weaken the stronger carb to match the weaker one. You turn the balance screw in whatever direction is necessary to drop the column levels on the stronger carb to match the weaker one. Again, allow 5 sec. for the engine to respond, and maintain 900RPM throughout the process. When done, you will have all 4 columns equal.

Voila, your're finished!

If you still have poor performance and/or idle, things to check are;

Clogged Carburettor fuel filters - Dellortos possess a fuel filter (a simple screen filter) attached to the underside of the needle valve seat. If these become clogged or varnished, they will affect carb performance.

Leaks in the carb mounting insulators - Check these by holding a propane torch to each intake runner, open the torch valve releasing some propane, if engine revs differ, you have a leak. Replace rubber insulators, do not merely tighten them down as these are set to 'float'. If tightened down, engine vibration will cause foaming of the fuel in the carb bowls.

Worn air adjustment or idle mixture screws - Check to see that their 'needle' points are not 'grouched', if so, replace.

Clogged jets - Remove the jet access cover on top of the carbs, unscrew the jet tubes and place in a solvent, such as Tolulene a couple minutes to dissolve any varnish and blow dry using compreseed air. You can also buy canned pressurized carb cleaner to do this job.

Worn Carbs - The carbs may simply require a rebuild. A broken spring or leaking accelerator diaphram, varnish build-up, or failed gaskets and seals may be to blame.

Fuel Pressure Regulator - misadjusted or faulty, this will also affect the carbs performance.

Fuel Pump - in the extreme, this may be faulty.

Hope this helps. Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE

wedg1e

Original Poster:

27,011 posts

288 months

Monday 22nd March 2004
quotequote all
Jim:
Thanks for that; it does clarify what I'd found on the net (and improves on it as well!)
I realise the CO meter is not the best way to set 4 barrels up: usually I use it on the injected V8 in my TVR but I thought it might be a quick pointer to a too-rich mixture or similar. As you know, the trends of rising and falling CO can be an indicator of more-or-less correct fuelling (ie richens under acceleration then eases back, etc.) - that's what I was looking for.
I did notice a tendency for the range of adjustment to differ between the barrels of one carb (differing column heights, with more potential for adjustment on one or the other): I was trying to get each pair the same and then balance between both carbs. What I did notice was that a blip of the throttle would give a faster drop in one pair of columns than the other; I wondered whether this was irrelevant or indicative of a problem somewhere. For the moment I was just interested to see whether I could improve on the settings I had... as I say, the columns were wildly different to start with and the engine runs noticeably smoother already, so time well spent, I think.
I will have another session, with your method, in the not-too-distant future, and report back!
I did also intend to do a compression check just to rule out leaking valves, stuck rings etc. (this car has stood for 2 years) but time was against me. As it is now, in fact: must get to bed!



Ian

Edit: Forgot to say - obviously I didn't check the float heights either...



>> Edited by wedg1e on Monday 22 March 02:12

DrieStone

74 posts

264 months

Monday 22nd March 2004
quotequote all
I'm new to the whole carb balancing/tuning thing, and I know my Esprit needs a serious tuning in the next month to try and pass emissions here in CT. I bought an LM-1 datalogger which includes a wide-band O2 sensor to check my A/F.

Anyway, cut to the chase. There is no surefire way to make sure you'll not lean in some cylinders and rich in the others right? I mean your best bet is to make sure that all of your adjustment screws are turned the same amount. There's no other "tricks" right? I assume that you won't be wildly rich or lean in any of the cylinders.

If I tune to .8% CO (about 14.1:1 A/F I think) I should be able to pass emissions (after failing with a 7% CO.) The engine was rebuilt a couple years ago by the PO and I think the mechanic just tuned to ear, so I'm sure everything is out of whack (and the cat is probably clogged and the cylinders probably have a lot of carbon build up.)

lotusguy

1,798 posts

280 months

Monday 22nd March 2004
quotequote all
DrieStone said:
I'm new to the whole carb balancing/tuning thing, and I know my Esprit needs a serious tuning in the next month to try and pass emissions here in CT. I bought an LM-1 datalogger which includes a wide-band O2 sensor to check my A/F.

Anyway, cut to the chase. There is no surefire way to make sure you'll not lean in some cylinders and rich in the others right? I mean your best bet is to make sure that all of your adjustment screws are turned the same amount. There's no other "tricks" right? I assume that you won't be wildly rich or lean in any of the cylinders.

If I tune to .8% CO (about 14.1:1 A/F I think) I should be able to pass emissions (after failing with a 7% CO.) The engine was rebuilt a couple years ago by the PO and I think the mechanic just tuned to ear, so I'm sure everything is out of whack (and the cat is probably clogged and the cylinders probably have a lot of carbon build up.)


Hi,

As I mentioned above, tuning a set of carbs for a favorable CO content in the exhaust is not the same thing as tuning as tuning for maximum performance. Using a CO meter measures an exhaust sample which is a composite of all cylinders. Consequently, a high CO level coming from one or more cylinders can be offset from an equal amount of low CO emission from one or more other cylinders. While the net result is a CO reading which may be within parameters, the car's performance may be poor and it may run/idle roughly.

Additionally, an older engine design, such as the 9XX engine, is going to be a polluter as compared to a more modern engine design. The only ways to mitigate this in an engine which lacks the dynamic adjustability of a Computer Engine Management system (ECU), are to either detune the engine at the fuel source (carbs), or add on lots of post combustion devices (air injection, catalytic converter, etc.) or a combination of both.

Turning the mixture screws out in equal amounts does not necessarily guarantee that all cylinders will neither run rich or lean. Remember, that the fuel is basically metered by the jets, with some fine tuning adjustment available by the mixture screws in the idle circuit. Once the engine is 'off idle', the jets are pretty much solely responsible for the fixed amount of fuel supplied to the engine. This is not entirely true on Dellortos, or on Dellortos on an Esprit, as they also have an accelerator pump circuit, and on the Esprit, a dynamic fuel pressure regulator does increase fuel pressure to the carbs once the car comes on boost. A rich/lean condition is almost always the product how far in/out you have the air balance screws turned, because as I said, fuel is mostly in a fixed metered situation. You can really add significantly more fuel by turning the mixture screws. To accomplish that, you really need to re-jet.

Individually tuning each barrel for maximum performance as I described above, assuming you don't have any leaks from the isolators on the mounts, pretty much assures that if anything, you'll be slightly rich, which is not a bad thing with a turbo. Too rich, and you'll smell the difference as all the fuel can't be burned by the engine's demand.

If I were in a State which had emissions testing, personally, I would tune the carbs using a CO meter to pass my inspection, then I would retune them using the method/tools I describe above for the period in-between inspections for a better running/performing engine. If you maintain the engine properly, swapping plugs and changing oil and filters on schedule, you'll most likely be cleaner burning than if you tuned for CO, but didn't keep the engine in top form. Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE

DrieStone

74 posts

264 months

Wednesday 24th March 2004
quotequote all
lotusguy said:
You can really add significantly more fuel by turning the mixture screws. To accomplish that, you really need to re-jet.


Should that read "You can't really..."?

I'm a little confused here though (so you might have to excuse the ignorance here.) So if my carbs are stock with the stock jets I shouldn't need to adjust the mixture at all? It sounds like if I'm really rich then I have an issue that doesn't pertain to just turning screws for performance (and I really didn't need to buy a $500 data logger.) Are you saying there is no way to change the mixture for anything but idle?

Could improper float levels be causing a rich condition? I ask because the engine was rebuilt in 97 by a mechanic of the PO. So I tend to doubt the pistons are the issue, but I don't see a record of the carbs ever being rebuilt. If I took it on myself to rebuild the carbs, how long should that take for your average backyard mechanic?

Right now the car is running at more than 7x the state allowed CO level so I need to get that level down soon before the state starts threatening me.

As a second note, I've tried to learn from research online, but have yet to completely understand some of the concepts of carburetors. Mainly, I'm wondering if the circuits are additive so is the idle circuit always providing fuel to the engine?

lotusguy

1,798 posts

280 months

Wednesday 24th March 2004
quotequote all
DrieStone said:


lotusguy said:
You can really add significantly more fuel by turning the mixture screws. To accomplish that, you really need to re-jet.




Should that read "You can't really..."?

I'm a little confused here though (so you might have to excuse the ignorance here.) So if my carbs are stock with the stock jets I shouldn't need to adjust the mixture at all? It sounds like if I'm really rich then I have an issue that doesn't pertain to just turning screws for performance (and I really didn't need to buy a $500 data logger.) Are you saying there is no way to change the mixture for anything but idle?

Could improper float levels be causing a rich condition? I ask because the engine was rebuilt in 97 by a mechanic of the PO. So I tend to doubt the pistons are the issue, but I don't see a record of the carbs ever being rebuilt. If I took it on myself to rebuild the carbs, how long should that take for your average backyard mechanic?

Right now the car is running at more than 7x the state allowed CO level so I need to get that level down soon before the state starts threatening me.

As a second note, I've tried to learn from research online, but have yet to completely understand some of the concepts of carburetors. Mainly, I'm wondering if the circuits are additive so is the idle circuit always providing fuel to the engine?



Hi,

You are quite correct, I did intend to say can't in the passage above.

The idle mixture screw merely fine tunes the fuel quantity determined by the size of the idle jet. Once the carbs transition to the mains, the main jets, which have no finer adjustment available determine fuel quantity. There is a way to change the mixture, by changing the jets. But, realize the A/F mixture can also be changed by introducing more air since this is a ratio of air to fuel. If your carbs are very dirty (varnished) this may actually be your problem.

Why do you assume the jets are stock? These are cheap and easy to swap. On these cars, there are very few stock rebuilds, most will want to upgrade performance where possible, so I am inclined to think there's a good possibility that the jets are not stock. To check, remove the jet access cover on top of the carbs, the idle and main jets are accessible. Unscrew the air/jet tubes and check the jet sizes which are stamped on the exterior of the jet. The Air tubes are also graduated and their value is also stamped on them.

Improper float level can cause a rich condition by not shutting off the fuel supply to the carbs.
There are three concerns with Floats. Float height, Float weight and Float integrity.

Float height is determined by measuring the gap between the top of the Float and the inside of the carb top, allowing for the thickness of the gasket, with the Float arm just touching the needle valve. You adjust this gap by bending the Float arms gently until the proper gap is achieved.

Float weight is set by the manufacturer and stamped on the side. But, there are two kinds of Floats, Brass and Foam. The Brass Floats are multi-piece affairs which are lead soldered together and hollow inside. The Floats on Dellortos are rigid closed cell foam. As such, they are not hollow inside. A proper Float weight on the Dellortos DHLA 45M carb is 8gms. Examine them for deterioration and weigh them. If in doubt, replace them.

In regard to Float integrity, on Brass Floats, the lead solder can deteriorate allowing fuel to enter, in which case the Float won't (float that is). On foam Floats, the foam can deteriorate and lose material, or breakdown and become saturated with fuel, making them heavier and less boyant.

There is no mystery to rebuilding carbs and the Dellortos are some of the easiest to rebuild. A rebuild consists of diassembly, cleaning and replacing a myriad of gaskets and 'O' rings, then reassembly and tuning. With two carbs, you have the benefit of doing one at a time, leaving the other as a comparison should you become confused.

A rebuild kit is available, but does not include new needle valves and seats, carb filters or accelerator pump diaphrams which must be purchased separately, but which should nonetheless be included. It is also a good idea to replace the carb mount insulators (rubber doughnuts) at the same time. You will also want a can of carb cleaner (I prefer the 3M cleaner in a pressurized spraycan) and an old clean toothbrush. Due to the number of small parts involved, I find it helpful to buy an aluminum Turkey roasting pan, which will contain all the parts, yet be large enough to work in and is impervious to the cleaning fluid. For all your Dellorto needs, contact Eurocarb in the UK (www.dellorto.com) contact Matthew Cooper and he'll get you all set. Parts take about 3 days.

For the uninitiated, figure an afternoon to complete both carbs. You start by removing the plenum, fuel lines and linkage. Then unbolt the carbs from the intake manifold and lift them out as a pair. Do one carb at a time, disassembling it in the turkey pan and clean each part to remove varnish build-up. Use the pressurized cleaner to clean all the passages in the carb body. Then replace any of the 'O' rings and reassemble. Do the other carb. Change the rubber doughnuts and re-install. Replace the linkage, fuel lines, throttle cable and tune. Contact me offlist for tuning procedures.

As far as carb operation, they are all slightly different. Some have independent idle circuits and some are additive, they stay active while transitioning to the mains. The Dellortos are additive which is what makes them more streetable than Webers (which are not) and better idling. Hope this helps. Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE

>> Edited by lotusguy on Thursday 25th March 05:14