S3 steering...

[wedg1e]

Quick one for the knowledgeable: I'm trying to source track rod ends for my '83 S3. I've been through stacks of ends at the local motor factors, working on the assumption that it would be a Triumph/Rover/BL derivative (since the steering arms that the ends fit are Triumph AFAIK). However most of those that are supposed to be Triumph, are too small (pin diameter).
Now the thread on my rack is 1/2" x 20 UNF, which rules out the metric ends I can find that DO have the right taper, and the rack itself is only marked 'BIRMAL' which I think is 'Birmingham Aluminium', where it was cast. One or two folk have suggested it's a Ford rack, but in my experience, Ford like to placard their logo wherever they can. Similarly with Standard-Triumph, they put 'Stanpart' wherever they could.
Current state of play is that we are guessing wildly at SAAB 99. Reasons: it's the right thread and the 99 was in production at the right time and was a large enough car to have the sort of sized pin that this steering arm takes... so we've ordered one in from the suppliers to try.

Am I barking up the wrong creek? Did Lotus have a special made, or is the Triumph arm machined to take a different taper, or what? What IS the rack? I've never had this much grief before, and I've owned two TVRs...

Ian

[Brub]

Hi Wegie,

Thanks for your help with my S3 clutch. I've just seen your not re the steering. Before I read your request I thought that the rack and track rod ends were Triumph as well. As well as the S3 I also have a Triumph 2000 rally car and also had a TR7 rally car. I've got a selection of racks and track rod ends so I'll have a look in the garage and see if they match the S3. I also happen to have a rally friend who used to be a SAAB dealer so if the Triumph connection doesn't work, I'll have a word with him.

I won't be able to do this until Wednesday evening - unfortunately I have to work as well but will get back to you later.

[kevin-84turbo]

Hi there

As a previous Triumph owner of most of their models there were 3 main tierod ends. Spit/Herald, 2000/TR6 and Pwer steer Stag, I dont think its any of those but havent checked the Stag one out!

I couldnt find any that matched on any BL cars here in New Zealand. So I ordered mine from Bell and Colville in Britain.

The rack could very well be Ford, BUT my local rack rebuilder had never seen anything like it when he rebuilt it so probably not a common Ford that came to NZ. However the rack bushes were marked FOMOCO(Ford) so that may be a further clue.

Best of luck
Kevin

[wedg1e]

Ah, a slight complication.
Just realised there's a Lotus part number on one of the steering arms... suggesting maybe they were specials for Lotus. In which case the track rod end could well be something odd... incidentally we did try several Ford ends, none of which would fit.
Some of the BL ones weren't in stock, so we couldn't try them, but we did find one or two cross-referred to another type which we DID have, but which didn't fit.
So that rules out quite a lot of possible vehicles....

I'm sure I did have an exploded drawing for a rack that looked like this one, but I'm damned if I can find it. Think it was the TR7 one...
One possibility that has occurred, since I was looking in one of the parts catalogues, is that this is actually a left-hand drive rack, mounted the other way round. Depending on the 'original' vehicle mountings this would work... but it doesn't help!

Ian

[wedg1e]

Well, I'd like to report some progress... but I can't

It does appear that the S3 rack is from a Ford (says so on the mounting rubbers - I missed it before!). The track rod threads are 1/2" x 20tpi UNF... quite a common size, and one that was used on a lot of Fords.
BUT... the taper pin size of the Lotus steering arm is too large for the parts book suggested track rod ends.
The Triumph equivalents also are too small.
In an effort to get rid of me , my local motor factors allowed me to open all the boxes they had in stock. I could find the right thread, but not the right pin. Or, I could find a pin that would fit, but the thread was wrong (there are only about 5 or 6 different thread sizes at most, and maybe three that suit 90%+ of all cars).
They had got me two in to try: one was ex-SAAB 99; wrong thread and wrong pin (the book said it was the correct thread). The other was (IIRC) Morris Marina - right pin, wrong thread... again, the book said it should be right.
Of all the boxes I opened, I only found one that 'looked' to be 100%, but closer examination revealed it was a fine-pitch Metric thread, too small by a midgie's part. Oh, it was off a Subaru...

So, none the wiser.
In the meantime, I have been blasting and painting the various suspension/ steering parts. Have extracted the lower link bushes and got one replacement started, but I need to bolt my large vice to a bench so I can get a better heave at it! Owing to the dust in the workshop (and the poor temperatures - British summertime my arse) I've been painting in the kitchen and the fumes are.... wow, look at all those green elephants man, I'm really tripping...

Ian

[scoots]

An idea that may or may not be worth investigating...

Is it possible to get a tie rod end (what we call these things in Australia - it connects the end of the rack to the ball joint on the steering arm) that has the correct taper to go onto the steering arm and a slightly smaller thread size (eG: 12mm or 7/16")?

If so, buy a tap the same pitch and diameter as the rod end and tap out the hole in the tie rod end to the required thread size and problem solved.

Hope that this helps....

cheers,

Ian....

[maigret]

Have you tried getting your old balljoints refurbished. There are places that can take your old one and fit a new ball and seat, reusing the housing.

I am currently getting Dads' car fixed. It needs a new lower suspension joint which is no longer available.

[B16 RFF]

wedg1e said:

Quick one for the knowledgeable: I'm trying to source track rod ends for my '83 S3. I've been through stacks of ends at the local motor factors, working on the assumption that it would be a Triumph/Rover/BL derivative (since the steering arms that the ends fit are Triumph AFAIK). However most of those that are supposed to be Triumph, are too small (pin diameter). Now the thread on my rack is 1/2" x 20 UNF, which rules out the metric ends I can find that DO have the right taper, and the rack itself is only marked 'BIRMAL' which I think is 'Birmingham Aluminium', where it was cast. One or two folk have suggested it's a Ford rack, but in my experience, Ford like to placard their logo wherever they can. Similarly with Standard-Triumph, they put 'Stanpart' wherever they could. Current state of play is that we are guessing wildly at SAAB 99. Reasons: it's the right thread and the 99 was in production at the right time and was a large enough car to have the sort of sized pin that this steering arm takes... so we've ordered one in from the suppliers to try. Am I barking up the wrong creek? Did Lotus have a special made, or is the Triumph arm machined to take a different taper, or what? What IS the rack? I've never had this much grief before, and I've owned two TVRs... Ian

Hi, Ian.

I know it's probably a point of principle with you, but is there any reason why you don't just get new TREs from a Lotus dealer?

Paul (Ex 1982 S3 owner)

[PatHeald]

Have you tried SJ Sportscars?

Pat.

[B16 RFF]

PatHeald said:

Have you tried SJ Sportscars? Pat.

In my (limited) experience of SJ, they will take weeks to send you the goods, if at all.
Paul

[wedg1e]

Pat, Paul:
Yes, they are available from SJ.

At £30 a pop. Plus VAT. Plus carriage

Now I don't mind giving Steve my business, but I do think there is a limit to what a trackrod end is worth... and £40-ish it isn't. The thread and the taper are both standards, just the combination of the two is proving the difficulty. As it happens the joints aren't sloppy, it's just that the boots are split. I've actually managed to superglue one of them as an experiment, but the other is a bit of a raggy tear and Fat John may have no difficulty spotting it at MOT time
I find it hard to believe that Lotus, having used so many off-the shelf parts, would then decide to have a 'special' for the TRE. I'm fairly cetain that one or more of the joints I've already tried were actually in the wrong boxes, as they'd obviously already been opened, and didn't match the threads that the book said they should have. It seems odd that the book would be wrong on precisely the joints that I ordered.
I seem to recall that my mate had trouble identifying the diff. on his Lotus Elite (inboard drums ), and finally tracked it down to a milkfloat, so it's not entirely improbable that the Esprit TRE isn't from somewhere similar...

Ian

[B16 RFF]

wedg1e said:

Pat, Paul: Yes, they are available from SJ. At £30 a pop. Plus VAT. Plus carriage Now I don't mind giving Steve my business, but I do think there is a limit to what a trackrod end is worth... and £40-ish it isn't. The thread and the taper are both standards, just the combination of the two is proving the difficulty. As it happens the joints aren't sloppy, it's just that the boots are split. I've actually managed to superglue one of them as an experiment, but the other is a bit of a raggy tear and Fat John may have no difficulty spotting it at MOT time I find it hard to believe that Lotus, having used so many off-the shelf parts, would then decide to have a 'special' for the TRE. I'm fairly cetain that one or more of the joints I've already tried were actually in the wrong boxes, as they'd obviously already been opened, and didn't match the threads that the book said they should have. It seems odd that the book would be wrong on precisely the joints that I ordered. I seem to recall that my mate had trouble identifying the diff. on his Lotus Elite (inboard drums ), and finally tracked it down to a milkfloat, so it's not entirely improbable that the Esprit TRE isn't from somewhere similar... Ian

If it's any use, I managed to do a very effective repair to the rubber boot on my griffith's lower ball joint (completely unobtainable at the mo) using black windscreen sealant from Halfwits. Much more durable than silicon sealant, and passed an MOT.

Paul.

[wedg1e]

Well, it has occurred to me to buy a couple of cheap TREs from any old car, and swap the boots...

Still find it hard to believe that I'm the first person to want to locate an alternative source of supply other than the Lotus dealers.... methinks there may be too much money amongst Esprit owners...

Ian

[kevin-84turbo]

YO!

Why not try Bedford or Vauxhall's of the period, also could be from a Transit Van.

I heard that Colin Chapman used to sit up in bed at night going through commercial van parts manuals looking for bits to use. Apparently the commercial parts were cheaper and that would fit with Lotus maximising profits.

There is a process where-bye you can inject plastic into the rod end to take up wear, I used this on My Corvette on a ball joint and it was rubbish.

I think its worth finding THE alternative as then when one is in a hurry it may be able to be sourced locally, keep up the search!

cheers
kevin

[B16 RFF]

wedg1e said:

Well, it has occurred to me to buy a couple of cheap TREs from any old car, and swap the boots... Still find it hard to believe that I'm the first person to want to locate an alternative source of supply other than the Lotus dealers.... methinks there may be too much money amongst Esprit owners... Ian

I think most people would rather cough up the £30 odd and get on with the job, rather than go through the hassle that you have. If it is a Lotus-only part, that's not expensive for a junior supercar.
On the other hand, if you do find another application,
bloody well done for your perseverence, old chap.

Paul.

PS I learnt the hard way many years ago that trying to get Lotus parts cheaper elsewhere is full of pitfalls. Lotus often take a stock part and then change it in some way.
I had a +2 5-speed that needed a new clutch, which is an engine out job. Not being too keen on Lotus parts prices, I went to a factor and bought the clutch kit listed in the Borg & Beck catalogue. I knew that B&B were the OE suppliers, so everything should have been fine. When I got it all back together, I could only just get it in gear with the pedal fully down. It was driveable, so I decided to stick with it. After a year, I could stand it no more and took the engine out to investigate. Nothing was obviously wrong, so I took a deep breath and bought a new Lotus clutch assy.
Then it was obvious that the Lotus part, although the same B&B part no, had the centre boss of the plate machined down slightly. I fitted it and all was well.
Since then, I have always used genuine Lotus parts, unless I'm really certain that another source is OK.

PPS Anybody know where AHK 68L is today?
Or my S3 Esprit, PVK 596Y ?

>> Edited by B16 RFF on Tuesday 4th May 11:21

>> Edited by B16 RFF on Tuesday 4th May 11:23

>> Edited by B16 RFF on Tuesday 4th May 11:26