Clutch is slipping

[NJGSX96]

Well, sooner than I thought, my clutch has started to slip. Took the carout today and for some reason she felt so much better than usual. Boost hit 1.2bar nice and quick, sustained it for what seemed like forever and the car just moved. As soon as I hit the highway, it happened. Every gear as soon as the boost passed 1 bar, the revs shoot up and the car goes no where, regardless of what gear I am in. First time it happened I thought the wheels were spinning but the car didn't slide and the tires didn't squeel so I did it again. Yep, nothing again, must be the clutch. The previous owner had just replaced it when I bought it so, being new, I figured it would last me a little longer than a year and a little more than 5000 miles. I guess the hi-tq chip followed by the 330hp chip will kill a stock clutch in no time. So it looks like I will be getting an upgraded clutch. The car is still driveable and slips only in high boost applications but it is now less fun to drive knowing I am limited so the sooner this gets replaced, the better. Sucks that the Euro is kicking the US dollar's ass, but what's done is done. Now, to my question...

I did a search but came up empty as far as rants or raves. Can anyone who has installed one of the upgraded PUK clutches comment on it? Is there an alternative, short of installing a S4s clutch/flywheel? The PUK clutches look good and I am buying one but I was just curious if anyone had an opinion on them.

Thanks. Rich

[cnh1990]

Did you check JAE?

[lotusguy]

Hi,

Drive it lovingly and sparingly until you replace the clutch. If not, you can virtually double the cost of repair by adding a flywheel to the parts list because of the one you'll heat temper, which could not be refaced, from overheating it with the slipping friction disk. Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE

[techspy]

I replaced mine with all S4s parts, IE: flywheel etc, and love it. I purchased mine from JAE and paid a total of just over $1100 for parts, the most of which was the flywheel. I remember at the time that JAE was much cheaper than other places for the flywheel. Like half the price. Also, Jim is correct, if you continue driving it, be careful if you intend on using the same flywheel. Overheat it and it is done.

John
94 S4
http://hometown.aol.com/oneshotcop/myhomepage/profile.html

[NJGSX96]

lotusguy said:

Hi, Drive it lovingly and sparingly until you replace the clutch. If not, you can virtually double the cost of repair by adding a flywheel to the parts list because of the one you'll heat temper, which could not be refaced, from overheating it with the slipping friction disk. Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE

Exactly. Until I get the parts I need, I plan to drive it as little as possible and if I do, no boost for me

Does JAE sell upgraded clutches as well?

About the flywheel. I read somewhere that someone mentioned it could not be resurfaced. Tell me this isn't true.

Second, is it at all possible to successfully replace the clutch without dropping the trans completely? More of a curiosity than anything else.

And finally, the trunk... how much is involved in removing it. When I did the axle seals I only unbolted it and lifted it up. For this, it just seems easier to completely remove it. Is it that much more work to remove it? i.e. disconnecting hoses, cables, etc?

As always, thanks for all the info guys.
Rich

[lotusguy]

Hi,

You can most definitely reface the flywheel, provided it's not all blued from heat tempering as I mentioned before. Once this happens, the clutch could literally shatter, either on the lathe, or worse, once re-installed in the car, and usually at high RPM.

Refacing the flywheel is a necessary part of any clutch rebuild (although it amazes me the number of people who don't do it). It allows a rough surface for the new friction disk to bed-in as well as allowing for even wear maximizing the life of the new disk.

In addition to refacing, the flywheel should be balanced, as should the disk, pressure plate and flywheel together, bolted up as a unit. This will significantly reduce vibration and the wear this can cause to both the engine and gearbox.

If rebuilding the clutch, you should also replace the rear crank seal in the engine, as it's right there and will never be easier. Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE

[bojangles]

Not sure how heating a piece of steel very hot ( maybe red hot, but by then the smell would be ovwhelming of burned clutch....) can harden it. If you could cool it quickly maybe it would harden but likely it would soften. Heat tempering is correct, it would be tempered meaning softer .. So no shattering, but just me being picky, myths are hard to fight. for sure you dont want to turn the flywheen blue then reuse it. Just dont be afraid of flying metal bits..

Bruce

[NJGSX96]

Exaclty what I wanted to hear. I have changed the clutch regularly on my last couple cars which I tracked and always resurfaced the flywheel with every change. Just wasn't sure as I recall someone saying the Esprit flywheel could not be resurfaced. Glad to hear it can be.

Mine shouldn't be blued, I hope, as it only slipped ~3 times and that was it. I wish it was the tires breaking loose instead of the clutch slipping but it will all work out in the end when I got the good/stronger clutch in there and, hopefully, won't have to worry about it for awhile.

[autocross7]

I recenty replaced my clutch. Not a hard job, but I must recommend JAE. I replaced parts for about a third of the Lotus cost... beauty here was that the numbers and identifiers on the parts were the same (except for the slave cylinder wich was their own manufacture. It was not an "upgrade", butI would call and see what they have to offer.

I'm not sure you really need an upgrade unless you are really going to put in some track time? I upgraded my MX-5 and it took some getting used to for the daily drive as the clutch became a switch (in or out)... I got used to it quikly, but I'm not sure I needed it. My fly wheel all was shine - looked new! But, I had a pressure plate getting weak coupled with a slave cylinder that was near dead and corrected it well before any real slipping occured. Resufaced it and replaced everything else...

Good luck!
Drive topless!!1
Cameron

[NJGSX96]

autocross7 said:

I recenty replaced my clutch. Not a hard job, but I must recommend JAE. I replaced parts for about a third of the Lotus cost... beauty here was that the numbers and identifiers on the parts were the same (except for the slave cylinder wich was their own manufacture. It was not an "upgrade", butI would call and see what they have to offer. I'm not sure you really need an upgrade unless you are really going to put in some track time? I upgraded my MX-5 and it took some getting used to for the daily drive as the clutch became a switch (in or out)... I got used to it quikly, but I'm not sure I needed it. My fly wheel all was shine - looked new! But, I had a pressure plate getting weak coupled with a slave cylinder that was near dead and corrected it well before any real slipping occured. Resufaced it and replaced everything else... Good luck! Drive topless!!1 Cameron

I am contacting JAE tomorrow to see what the have. Their prices and service just can't be beat but I can't replace it with a stock unit. The clutch in there was brand new (from JAE) almost exactly one year ago. One year and 5000 miles later and it is slipping under high boost with the 330HP chip running 1.2 bar of boost. If I am going to replace it, I would prefer un upgraded and stronger unit because I don't want to do it again. I actually prefer the on/off feel in a clutch. My Eagle Talon, which is my daily driver, has an ACT 2600 (2600lb pressure plate) to accomodate the more than doubling of the HP and is on/off and has a heavier feel than the stocker in the Lotus. I am just so used to it. I don't like the "slippy" feel a stock clutch has and rather have that on or off action with a heavier pedal feel. I would love to track the car and eventually I plan to upgrade the turbo as well but not until the stock unit kicks it. Upgrading the clutch now should save me some trouble later.

[rlearp]

I've found what autocross7 found to be true. Lotus doesn't make clutches, etc but Borg Warner and PBR do. Find the right part number. Then, you can typically go to a good auto parts store and say I have clutch #435356 from BG, what upgraded parts are available? Works for me most times. I've got to do my clutch again too and when I do I'm going to try this route first.

[cnh1990]

You can upgrade to the S4s clutch but the master has to changed to a larger one for the extra travel distance of the S4s clutch set up. I don't think the slave needs to be changed from what I recall. If Sanj see this post maybe he can comment on this subject.
Calvin

[NJGSX96]

I ended up purchasing the +35% stronger clutch upgrade from PUK. It is a very affordable upgrade and should hold whatever I throw at it. Marcus has always done me right and while I am sure I could find a comparable part with some leg work for probably less, it is worth it for the least amount of hassle and all the great info and deals he has given me. I have no problem giving him my business. I will post up a review of it when it goes in. I don't recall seeing one done.

[techspy]

"You can upgrade to the S4s clutch but the master has to changed to a larger one for the extra travel distance of the S4s clutch set up. I don't think the slave needs to be changed from what I recall. If Sanj see this post maybe he can comment on this subject.
Calvin"

You may need to change the master in a pre S4 car, but I definatlty didn't have to change it with my S4s clutch upgrade.

John
94 S4
http://hometown.aol.com/oneshotcop/myhomepage/profile.html

[MikeyRide]

You should take a few minutes and check the linkage adjustment. The clutch is hydraulic, of course, but there's still a mechanical adjustment to keep the it from wearing to the point that it ruins the flywheel. In my case, it turned out that I had another mm of adjustment left. Not very much but enough that I can continue to enjoy driving the car while I clear the garage of other projects.

>> Edited by MikeyRide on Monday 10th May 19:21

[autocross7]

I did forget to mention... When I replaced my clutch, I took the friction plate to a local clutch products shop here in town. They were able to strip the OEM material off and reline the friction plate. They used a semi-ceramic material (or something) that "should be better than the OEM stuff". It feels pretty good and does have a bit of an on off feel to it (as I said above this really does not bother me now)...

This may be an option fopr you as well depending on where you live and what is available. It cost me about $110.00 USD...

Drive topless!!!
Cameron

[JK1]

NJGSX96 said:

Exaclty what I wanted to hear. I have changed the clutch regularly on my last couple cars which I tracked and always resurfaced the flywheel with every change. Just wasn't sure as I recall someone saying the Esprit flywheel could not be resurfaced. Glad to hear it can be.

Rich,

The problem with refacing the flywheel is you have to be sure that you maintain the step in the face of the flywheel to factory specs. If it is off only a few thousandths it will cause the clutch to wear out prematurely.

This could be why your recently replaced clutch is now in need of replacing again. It may not be the upgraded chip at all.

Just be sure whoever does the machine work is aware of this.

Jim

[NJGSX96]

I know all too well about the flywheel steps thanks to the DSM days of old. The limited choice of clutches avilable to us back then had stricter tolerances than stockers and the ones available today.

Looking at the records of the PO, there is no note of resurfacing the flywheel. There is a charge for the swap, but no charge for the resurface. While I think he could have bundled it in with the swap charge, I doubt it since he went as far as to charge 4 cans of brake kleen at $3.61 a piece so I would assume he wound write down the extra charge for resurfacing.

This kind of scares me that these so called "specialists" do not go as far as to resurface the flywheel and make sure it is within spec. Almost 75% of those I spoke with mentioned just swapping in the clutch disc as long as the flywheel "looked OK". Are you kidding me? I have changed clutches every other year for the past couple years in my Talon and every time I have either resurfaced the flywheel or replaced it with another resurfaced unit. I wouldn't think twice about whether it needs doing or not. I only hope I don't need a new one, although if it is possible to re-line it and make it better, that may be the better way to go.

What a great thread, some great replies and great help. Thank you to everyone!

>> Edited by NJGSX96 on Tuesday 11th May 05:32

[Lotusacbc]

NJGSX96 said:

This kind of scares me that these so called "specialists" do not go as far as to resurface the flywheel and make sure it is within spec. Almost 75% of those I spoke with mentioned just swapping in the clutch disc as long as the flywheel "looked OK". What a great thread, some great replies and great help. Thank you to everyone! >> Edited by NJGSX96 on Tuesday 11th May 05:32

I agree, any 'specialist' should know how imperative it is to resurface a flywheel. I didnt even think it was a question of maybe. Some specialist!

[autocross7]

Hey, I thimk 'specialist' is a rather loose term. A Lotus dealer was the last to put a clutch in my Esprit (before the one I just replaced)...

Hmmmm....
(C5 box)
No nylon washer
No steel sleeve on the input shaft
and a Pilot that was installed backwards!


You know what they say...
Want it done right...


Drive topless!!!
Cameron