Bikeability,has dumbing down gone too far?
Discussion
My daughter is doing her cycling proficency training this week courtesy of Bikeability.Today she called me to say they are not teaching her properly as instead of the waved right arm to indicate slowing down and pulling in to the kerb she has been taught to turn and make eye contact with the driver of the vehicle behind and point to the kerb.As she said "its not in the Highway Code Daddy".Intrigued I phoned the school and spoke to the council staff responsible the reply amazed me."We dont teach them that as some drivers may not understand it".Well last time I checked a test was needed to prove your competance to be on our roads,they then carried on to say that "Some children wobble a bit when they give that signal".I asked why deviate from the Highway Code and was told,"Some people thought it was a good idea".Apparently it is being discussed later in the year.So there we have it dont teach the rules just teach what you think is a good idea.
PS I applaud the training but they cant dumb down the rules of the road.
PS I applaud the training but they cant dumb down the rules of the road.
shalmaneser said:
Did they also teach her about paragraphs?
Either way I'm with the school on this one, waving a hand up and down while trying to brake with the remaining (unwaving) hand is tricky for an experienced cyclist, let alone a child.
I do not disagree that the signal described may be a better signal,but it needs to be put in the Highway Code before it is taught.Either way I'm with the school on this one, waving a hand up and down while trying to brake with the remaining (unwaving) hand is tricky for an experienced cyclist, let alone a child.
I am actually interested to gather opinions on this.My only issue was they are teaching something that is not currently a recognised signal and the reason given being other drivers may not recognise it.
P.S Sorry about the paragraph issue.
shalmaneser said:
I'm with the school on this one, waving a hand up and down while trying to brake with the remaining (unwaving) hand is tricky for an experienced cyclist, let alone a child.
Whereas looking over your shoulder and making eye contact with the driver is easy? That's a recipe for swerving into the traffic.If you're in a car, and you make contact with another driver, and then point to the kerb, I'm pretty sure they won't imagine that you're just telling them that you're slowing down. Why would it work on a bike?
To pass a driving test, the driver has had to read the Highway Code. If the waving your arm thing is in there (and it was the last time I looked), then that's the signal that should be used and understood. Making up something else is sheer madness.
I'm not saying that the accepted wisdom shuld never change; just that getting pre-teenagers to lead the charge (by getting the attention of strangers in cars and inviting them to pull over) isn't the way to do it.
My opinion: The school is acting irresponsibly and unnecessarily.
Doofus said:
Whereas looking over your shoulder and making eye contact with the driver is easy? That's a recipe for swerving into the traffic.
If you're in a car, and you make contact with another driver, and then point to the kerb, I'm pretty sure they won't imagine that you're just telling them that you're slowing down. Why would it work on a bike?
To pass a driving test, the driver has had to read the Highway Code. If the waving your arm thing is in there (and it was the last time I looked), then that's the signal that should be used and understood. Making up something else is sheer madness.
I'm not saying that the accepted wisdom shuld never change; just that getting pre-teenagers to lead the charge (by getting the attention of strangers in cars and inviting them to pull over) isn't the way to do it.
My opinion: The school is acting irresponsibly and unnecessarily.
I'm envisaging a glance over the shoulder and then a finger pointed to the kerb - maintaining eye contact all the way seems unnecessary. Much more obvious what is going on than an arm flailing about to the majority of car drivers. I certainly didn't know that that was the relevant signal till reading this thread.If you're in a car, and you make contact with another driver, and then point to the kerb, I'm pretty sure they won't imagine that you're just telling them that you're slowing down. Why would it work on a bike?
To pass a driving test, the driver has had to read the Highway Code. If the waving your arm thing is in there (and it was the last time I looked), then that's the signal that should be used and understood. Making up something else is sheer madness.
I'm not saying that the accepted wisdom shuld never change; just that getting pre-teenagers to lead the charge (by getting the attention of strangers in cars and inviting them to pull over) isn't the way to do it.
My opinion: The school is acting irresponsibly and unnecessarily.
Eye contact is absolutely essential to a cyclist, and to be honest I'm impressed that they're teaching it to children. The over the shoulder look is both a lifesaver and an important bit of Non Verbal communication between road users.
How many people know what the flapped arm is? Only those who've done cycling proficiency themselves and remember it. I'll wager most motorists think it's a rubbish "I'm turning right signal", or else an admonishment: "You slow down you madman" or simply don't have a clue.
If you think you can teach your daughter better, why don't you?
How many people know what the flapped arm is? Only those who've done cycling proficiency themselves and remember it. I'll wager most motorists think it's a rubbish "I'm turning right signal", or else an admonishment: "You slow down you madman" or simply don't have a clue.
If you think you can teach your daughter better, why don't you?
I passed my Cycling Proficiency Test, under the instruction of our
local policeman back in the mid-60s when I was 7 years old. We had
to carry out all the hand signals whilst maintaining a straight course
and, no wobbling.
Most UK drivers, I'm sure, would recognise the arm signals indicating
left, right, slowing down.
local policeman back in the mid-60s when I was 7 years old. We had
to carry out all the hand signals whilst maintaining a straight course
and, no wobbling.
Most UK drivers, I'm sure, would recognise the arm signals indicating
left, right, slowing down.
Long Drax said:
Most UK drivers, I'm sure, would recognise the arm signals indicating
left, right, slowing down.
They certainly should do, and that's my point. If there's a fear that most drivers don't know the correct signals, then educate them. Changing the signal to something 'unofficial' is just going to cause greater confusion.left, right, slowing down.
Until this thread, if a cyclist had looked over their shoulder at me, and then pointed to the kerb (with which hand, incidentally?), I would genuinely have had no idea what they were trying to tell me.
Is also maintain that riding a bike with one hand whilst looking backwards is going to make you unstable - particularly in the case of a child.
Looking at the driver? Pointing to the kerbside? Commuting in London that would lead to only one thing... FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!! 
Whilst a lifesaver is a good idea, especially with regards to learning how to do so without ending up under the front of a bus, highway code signals are there for a reason and should be utilised, if it is out of date then it should be updated then the new technique applied - it's bad enough as it is with all sorts of drivers not knowing what road signs mean nevermind hand signals. Bringing in new interpretations outside of the acknowledged "standard" is daft.
Whilst a lifesaver is a good idea, especially with regards to learning how to do so without ending up under the front of a bus, highway code signals are there for a reason and should be utilised, if it is out of date then it should be updated then the new technique applied - it's bad enough as it is with all sorts of drivers not knowing what road signs mean nevermind hand signals. Bringing in new interpretations outside of the acknowledged "standard" is daft.
And another thing: Waving your right arm up and down is likely to attract the attention of a driver behind you.
Glancing over your shoulder (perhaps at the same moment that the driver is blinking, or looking at his speedo or something), and then pointing to the kerb with your left hand, presumably is, I would have said, quite likely to go completely unnoticed by said driver.
Glancing over your shoulder (perhaps at the same moment that the driver is blinking, or looking at his speedo or something), and then pointing to the kerb with your left hand, presumably is, I would have said, quite likely to go completely unnoticed by said driver.
I know what the HC prescribes, and it's good of her to pick up on it, but why would you ever do either of these things?
Using a signal primarily intended for cars without functioning indicators/brake lights which hardly anyone understands is a recipe for trouble. Getting eye contact and pointing at the kerb is bizarre and even less likely to be understood.
It's only occasionally necessary to do anything, but signalling left, pulling in and stopping pedalling should suffice.
Using a signal primarily intended for cars without functioning indicators/brake lights which hardly anyone understands is a recipe for trouble. Getting eye contact and pointing at the kerb is bizarre and even less likely to be understood.
It's only occasionally necessary to do anything, but signalling left, pulling in and stopping pedalling should suffice.
Why worry about the school teaching the cycling proficiency? When I was at school the only reason for it was to be allowed to use my bike to get to school without it no permit to park in the school sheds. I already knew how to use the road.
If you want your kid to be safe on the road, take her out and teach her what she needs to know yourself.
Then you know she is safe rather than relying on some teacher who may not even ride a bike to sign off that they think your nearest and dearest is safe, when they are dealing with 20+ other kids who can't really be bothered to listen or already think they know.
This way kiddie learns two lessons, one to ride a bike properly with you, and two that some things are done in life to get a tick in a book, once we have passed we can learn properly. Be good for when she learns to drive a car. :-)
If you want your kid to be safe on the road, take her out and teach her what she needs to know yourself.
Then you know she is safe rather than relying on some teacher who may not even ride a bike to sign off that they think your nearest and dearest is safe, when they are dealing with 20+ other kids who can't really be bothered to listen or already think they know.
This way kiddie learns two lessons, one to ride a bike properly with you, and two that some things are done in life to get a tick in a book, once we have passed we can learn properly. Be good for when she learns to drive a car. :-)
It doesnt seem to have been said.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Sincerley, making sure your daughter knows how to cycle safely on the road instead of just releasing her to get on with it like so many parents do. Bikeability will teach her valuable lessons in staying safe on the roads, not upsetting motorists and give you a little peace of mind.
I am pretty sure most motorists know the signal for slowing down, if they dont it is time for them to get a licence instead of using the back of a cornflakes box. Even if they dont understand the signal then that is no reason that your child should not know the correct way of doing things.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Sincerley, making sure your daughter knows how to cycle safely on the road instead of just releasing her to get on with it like so many parents do. Bikeability will teach her valuable lessons in staying safe on the roads, not upsetting motorists and give you a little peace of mind.
I am pretty sure most motorists know the signal for slowing down, if they dont it is time for them to get a licence instead of using the back of a cornflakes box. Even if they dont understand the signal then that is no reason that your child should not know the correct way of doing things.
um, in the highway code the left-turn signal for push/motor bikes and horses is sticking your left arm out - the circular one is only there because your left arm's going to be invisible to followers in a car (what about left hand drive?), although on a push bike etc I'm sure both are acceptable.
Either way, I'd teach what works over what's legally correct anytime - jonathan hay etc. Can't see what's wrong with a normal left turn signal (i.e. left arm out) though - top marks whoever suggested the pointing motion = FIGHT!
Either way, I'd teach what works over what's legally correct anytime - jonathan hay etc. Can't see what's wrong with a normal left turn signal (i.e. left arm out) though - top marks whoever suggested the pointing motion = FIGHT!
Anyway daughters test was completed on Friday,she did challenge the instructors about the signal not being in the Highway Code and said she wanted to use the correct signal to which she was told she would lose points! So using the correct rather than a concocted signal in a test of road safety will lose you points.What a bizzare situation.
I was musing as well what would happen should a child that had been taught to use the non Highway Code pointing signal be unfortunate enough to be involved in an accident because of giving that signal.I think West Sussex County Council should consult there legal dept,you can see a compensation claim coming a mile away if this situation should arise.
Anyway the training has been of value other than this issue.
I was musing as well what would happen should a child that had been taught to use the non Highway Code pointing signal be unfortunate enough to be involved in an accident because of giving that signal.I think West Sussex County Council should consult there legal dept,you can see a compensation claim coming a mile away if this situation should arise.
Anyway the training has been of value other than this issue.
What trashbat and paranoid airbag said.
If a signal is needed I don't see what's wrong with just pointing left.
I don't think waving a right arm is appropriate for cycles. Secondary is the issue that the kids' right hand will be off the front brake for the signal when they are supposed to be slowing surely.
If a signal is needed I don't see what's wrong with just pointing left.
I don't think waving a right arm is appropriate for cycles. Secondary is the issue that the kids' right hand will be off the front brake for the signal when they are supposed to be slowing surely.
I'm with Paranoid Airbag - the waving your arm things seems to be largely irrelevant to cyclists. I've just flicked through the Code and think that just indicating left makes more sense, both common sense and in relation to the Code. Waving your arm up and down is for situations when you are going to stop and subsequently cause some sort of obstruction - not what they are showing your daughter. Waving your arm round and round is for car drivers since you don't have a left arm 8 feet long to stick out of the passenger window to show you are moving left. One situation where a cyclist might do the up and down signal is if some ducks were crossing the road and you wanted to stop in the middle of the carriage way and not have cars overtake.
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