Shimano Alfine weight vs derailleur?

[Watchman]

The Shimano Alfine 11 is stated as being 1.6Kg. On paper that looks horrible but then if you look at a hub, 9-10 speed cassette and derailleur, I bet there's not much in it.

Anyone got a view on the weight of a traditional derailleur setup including an average alloy wide-flanged disc-ready hub?

[Rouleur]

Have you tried picking up a bike with one fitted? I lifted a CX bike with an Alfine hub in my LBS and thought I'd picked up the stand with it it was that heavy at the back!

According to this http://road.cc/content/review/27971-shimano-alfine... they weight a lot more than stated too...

[Watchman]

Oh really? Mmm... OK I had a horrible feeling it would be like adding a dead-weight but started to justify it by looking at the bits I'd be taking off.

Fair enough - and thanks.

[shalmaneser]

It's in a funny place on the bike too, derailleur system weight is more evenly spread out.

Hub gears will have their day, just not yet i reckon.

[anonymous-user]

shalmaneser said:

It's in a funny place on the bike too, derailleur system weight is more evenly spread out.

Hub gears will have their day, just not yet i reckon.

Bottom Bracket gears will take over.

http://pinion.eu/

[Watchman]

OneDs said:

Bottom Bracket gears will take over.

http://pinion.eu/

I like that for a roadbike but for an MTB with rear sus, mounting the drive sprocket higher up makes a lot of sense. I saw this in a thread a few weeks ago. Like it a lot:

http://www.zerode.co.nz/index.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=e1lKG6yzHx...

[shalmaneser]

OneDs said:

Bottom Bracket gears will take over.

http://pinion.eu/

True...what i meant was that derailleur gears will eventually die out - to be replaced with a sealed system. Really, having all that interlocking metal exposed to the elements is frankly stupid, can you imagine a car's gearbox being unsealed?

Just got to wait for the materials technology to catch up.

[anonymous-user]

shalmaneser said:

True...what i meant was that derailleur gears will eventually die out - to be replaced with a sealed system. Really, having all that interlocking metal exposed to the elements is frankly stupid, can you imagine a car's gearbox being unsealed?

Just got to wait for the materials technology to catch up.

I'm amazed we still have dérailleurs and gears and brake blocks rubbing against wheel rims on road bikes. You spend ££££s on a bike and although the frames are made out of materials from the future, the components and braking systems are really much the same as those 20/30 years ago.

[Watchman]

Honda built their RN-01 foir racing but never made any to sell (shame). It started out with a trick gearbox but switched to a centrally-mounted derauilleur gearbox with the freewheel inside the gearbox housing, and a fixed sprocket on the rear wheel. It was said to be reliable and relatively lightweight, and you could change gear while coasting (but not if stopped).

However, in the pics I've seen, they have not take the opportunity to locate the swing arm pivot as high as on the Zerode which seems like an opportunity missed.

Very interesting design though. I can only assume that despite the internet being awash with people expressing interest to buy, they couldn't produce them at a viable cost to sell.

[anonymous-user]

the advantage of the alfine is the reliability. my rear mech got completely snagged in mud and stuff at the weekend so i was off the bike every mile or so poking the mud and grass out of it to keep it operational.

for some the extra weight is worth the reliability in sticky conditions.

[anonymous-user]

el stovey said:

I'm amazed we still have dérailleurs and gears and brake blocks rubbing against wheel rims on road bikes. You spend ££££s on a bike and although the frames are made out of materials from the future, the components and braking systems are really much the same as those 20/30 years ago.

Not that much has changed in 100 years, just goes to show what a great design the bicycle is. Some would argue that the latest frame materials are not that much of an advance, but thats a different discussion...
My next bike will be Alfine equipped(or similar, modern day Sturmey Archer?) The marginal weight gain is not a high priority for the riding I do, I'm not aiming to win any TDF stages!

[a11y_m]

pablo said:

the advantage of the alfine is the reliability. my rear mech got completely snagged in mud and stuff at the weekend so i was off the bike every mile or so poking the mud and grass out of it to keep it operational.

for some the extra weight is worth the reliability in sticky conditions.

I'd agree with that mostly. Apart from the problem being my Alfine 8sp is knackered after 2 years of MTB use: a plastic bearing race inside the hub disintegrated and Shimano won't sell a replacement part (which would cost pounds if not pennies), only a full hub internal at approx £100. I'd be cheaper buying a new hub.

I started using my geared hardtail MTB for winter rides but it always gets gunked up with mud/grass/etc very quickly, particularly the front mech (I'm debating converting to 1x9 for winter purely so I can lose the front mech). I really miss the external simplicity of the Alfine.

I'm now almost exclusively using my singlespeed 29er for winter rides and only using the geared bike for longer rides and/or drier (ha!) rides this winter.

[Watchman]

I don't know to what extent but the 11-speed Alfine is supposed to be a radical redesign compared with the 8-speed.

[anonymous-user]

What does a goodish rear mtb wheel weigh? 800g-1kg excluding tire/tube, so you take the hub off -300g and replace that with a 1.6kg hub, you'll probably need beefier spokes so add another 100g, your now running 2.4kg rear wheel, all 2.4kg as rotating mass.

I agree that external derailers are old school subceptable in certain conditions, hub gears do provide a solution to this problem, but it's completely the wrong place to put a significant amount of mass on a bike.

I'd look into the various frame mounted alfine options if I was determined to get something now or go single speed/1x9(10), otherwise I'd wait for the pinion or (shimano/sram version of) to become more mainstream when buying a new bike.

[Watchman]

OneDs said:

What does a goodish rear mtb wheel weigh? 800g-1kg excluding tire/tube, so you take the hub off -300g and replace that with a 1.6kg hub, you'll probably need beefier spokes so add another 100g, your now running 2.4kg rear wheel, all 2.4kg as rotating mass.

I agree that external derailers are old school subceptable in certain conditions, hub gears do provide a solution to this problem, but it's completely the wrong place to put a significant amount of mass on a bike.

I'd look into the various frame mounted alfine options if I was determined to get something now or go single speed/1x9(10), otherwise I'd wait for the pinion or (shimano/sram version of) to become more mainstream when buying a new bike.

You're not just removing a hub though - you're losing the derailleur and a cassette too.

And I see no reason why you'd need beefier spokes - the frame holds the hub just the same, and the rim is just the same. If anything, you end up with shorter spokes because the hub is larger in diameter.

Rotational mass becomes more of an issue towards the circumference. There will be a difference but (without calculating it) I don't believe it will be significant.

[Beyond Rational]

I can't see why you'd need stronger spokes, if anything, spoke weight would go down very slightly due to them being shorter. It also looks like less or no dishing, so it should be stronger.

Hub rotational mass isn't the end of the world but I see your point - not good if it is on a full suspension bike though.. The weight of chain will be slightly less than a mech setup.

ETA: was writing that at the same time as the above, apologies for the repetition!

[rhinochopig]

a11y_m said:

pablo said:

the advantage of the alfine is the reliability. my rear mech got completely snagged in mud and stuff at the weekend so i was off the bike every mile or so poking the mud and grass out of it to keep it operational.

for some the extra weight is worth the reliability in sticky conditions.

I'd agree with that mostly. Apart from the problem being my Alfine 8sp is knackered after 2 years of MTB use: a plastic bearing race inside the hub disintegrated and Shimano won't sell a replacement part (which would cost pounds if not pennies), only a full hub internal at approx £100. I'd be cheaper buying a new hub.

I started using my geared hardtail MTB for winter rides but it always gets gunked up with mud/grass/etc very quickly, particularly the front mech (I'm debating converting to 1x9 for winter purely so I can lose the front mech). I really miss the external simplicity of the Alfine.

I'm now almost exclusively using my singlespeed 29er for winter rides and only using the geared bike for longer rides and/or drier (ha!) rides this winter.

I run a 1x9 on my winter bike; xtr mech, Sram cassette - the one with redally spider centreas i find it clears mud the best, and kcnc jockey wheels. I've never had problem with mud; and it's always wet and muddy here all year round.

[shalmaneser]

Jimboka said:

Not that much has changed in 100 years, just goes to show what a great design the bicycle is. Some would argue that the latest frame materials are not that much of an advance, but thats a different discussion...
My next bike will be Alfine equipped(or similar, modern day Sturmey Archer?) The marginal weight gain is not a high priority for the riding I do, I'm not aiming to win any TDF stages!

SA still has a long way to go before it's as good as Alfine!

[Ironballs]

I run a lightweight full suss with derailleur for summer riding and then a Nicolai full suss with Rohloff and a hardtail with Alfine for wet and winter riding. You can of course feel the weight of the hub gears but it's not excessive and on the hardtail it's inconsequential, the hubs also build into very strong wheels that almost never need truing.

The benefits of the hub gears in filthy, gritty weather far outweighs any weight issues, no missed shifts, no skipping, no graunching, no replacing worn out gear parts and crappy middle rings. Occasionally they will get a wash and a lube and that's it.

Get me a BB located gear box with trigger shift and I'd be in heaven

[Watchman]

Ironballs said:

Get me a BB located gear box with trigger shift and I'd be in heaven

That has to be the future.