Discussion
I am considering taking the plunge and buying a proper triathlon bike. Budget is around £2k, criteria is simply that function is better than form. For me, technical excellence is beauty.
Short list:
Giant Trinity Composite 2
Cannondale Slice 105
Scott Plasma
Cervelo P2 (secondhand)
I know that Planet X and Ribble offer bikes with remarkable specs for the money, but I want something a little special and (forgive me) there is an element of bargain basement with them in my mind.
I like the ideas behind the P2, the design is clever but it is now 6 years old and I'm wondering if other manufacturers have caught up and passed yet?
Any comments/suggestions?
Short list:
Giant Trinity Composite 2
Cannondale Slice 105
Scott Plasma
Cervelo P2 (secondhand)
I know that Planet X and Ribble offer bikes with remarkable specs for the money, but I want something a little special and (forgive me) there is an element of bargain basement with them in my mind.
I like the ideas behind the P2, the design is clever but it is now 6 years old and I'm wondering if other manufacturers have caught up and passed yet?
Any comments/suggestions?
personally i think you are mad to discount planet x because of the image but its your call. if its good enough for Ian Cammish, its good enough for you ... and for £2K you will get a killer bike, just have a look how many you see at duathlons, tts and triathlons! You seem to contradict yourself, your criteria is simply that function is better than form. For me, technical excellence is beauty Function: for £2k, places like planet x are the best way of achieving this. Technical Excellence: at £2K you are just scratching the surface of technical excellence. If you really want function over form on a budget of 2k, forget about looks and the recognisable name on the side and dont waste your money on an off the peg bike.
TT bikes, more than any other bikes, have really poor spec for the purpose, the slice 105 is a good example, why try to impress the punter with 105 groupset and then fit R500 wheels (which retail at less than £100) on a bike that is designed to spend most of its time north of 20mph. i appreciate that often a shop will tell you that a carbon frame is the same on the entry level model as it is on the highest priced model and its just the spec that changes as you go up in value but thats normally b
ks, the design might be the same, the geometry might be the same but the quality of carbon fibre will be different. as an example the high modulous cannondale slice frame is totally different to that on the 105 model.
Quite simply, (ok, in my humble opinion) the manufacturers have cottoned on to the current triathlon craze and pump out fancy looking bikes that are poorly spec'd. a tt bike should have the best frame/wheel combo you can afford, then you worry about the rest of the bike.
Valuing function over anything else, consider getting a good frame and building something up yourself using the online stores like ribble and crc for the components. If it were me and I had £2k to drop on a tt bike, i'd build something really nice using the Dolan Stryke frame
http://www.dolan-bikes.com/tt-triathlon/frame-sets... using a mix of components and some 50mm Gigantex carbon clinchers from Wheelsmith. see http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/road-wheels-prices for details, gigantex carbomn clinchers on novatec hubs are a million times better than the shimano r500s on the slice 105 and this is where the difference on a tt bike matters.
by my basic maths, that leaves you about £650 from your £2K budget to finish the build which is easy. Ribble sell the 105 groupset for £400 http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/groupset.asp?action=... (without sti shifters, groupsets are surprisingly cheap!)so you will need brake levers, bars, stem and saddle for £250.
ok it wont be top quality but the Deda stuff from ribble is fine as an example. Give it all to a local bike shop if you arent keen on bolting it together yourself, although its really not that hard (find the shop the local roadie club are sponsored by/recommend) and they should build it for less than a £100. then upgrade the componenets as you need to but you already have the basis of a very good bike that I promise is a lot better than dropping £2k on the slice
alternatively, have a look at www.timetriallingforum.co.uk for advice and a good classifieds section.
TT bikes, more than any other bikes, have really poor spec for the purpose, the slice 105 is a good example, why try to impress the punter with 105 groupset and then fit R500 wheels (which retail at less than £100) on a bike that is designed to spend most of its time north of 20mph. i appreciate that often a shop will tell you that a carbon frame is the same on the entry level model as it is on the highest priced model and its just the spec that changes as you go up in value but thats normally b
ks, the design might be the same, the geometry might be the same but the quality of carbon fibre will be different. as an example the high modulous cannondale slice frame is totally different to that on the 105 model. Quite simply, (ok, in my humble opinion) the manufacturers have cottoned on to the current triathlon craze and pump out fancy looking bikes that are poorly spec'd. a tt bike should have the best frame/wheel combo you can afford, then you worry about the rest of the bike.
Valuing function over anything else, consider getting a good frame and building something up yourself using the online stores like ribble and crc for the components. If it were me and I had £2k to drop on a tt bike, i'd build something really nice using the Dolan Stryke frame
http://www.dolan-bikes.com/tt-triathlon/frame-sets... using a mix of components and some 50mm Gigantex carbon clinchers from Wheelsmith. see http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/road-wheels-prices for details, gigantex carbomn clinchers on novatec hubs are a million times better than the shimano r500s on the slice 105 and this is where the difference on a tt bike matters.
by my basic maths, that leaves you about £650 from your £2K budget to finish the build which is easy. Ribble sell the 105 groupset for £400 http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/groupset.asp?action=... (without sti shifters, groupsets are surprisingly cheap!)so you will need brake levers, bars, stem and saddle for £250.
ok it wont be top quality but the Deda stuff from ribble is fine as an example. Give it all to a local bike shop if you arent keen on bolting it together yourself, although its really not that hard (find the shop the local roadie club are sponsored by/recommend) and they should build it for less than a £100. then upgrade the componenets as you need to but you already have the basis of a very good bike that I promise is a lot better than dropping £2k on the slice
alternatively, have a look at www.timetriallingforum.co.uk for advice and a good classifieds section.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 23 June 15:11
AyBee said:
Pablo, why would you not go the whole hog and just get this with SRAM Red?
I'd be very tempted by this with enough left over to get some new aero wheels.
good call!, that stryke is a bargain, i dont need a tt bike, i havent got £2K but i'm seriously tempted!, at that price its almost theft...the canyon is lovely too, to be honest, the cosmic elites would be fine for a season or two but yes, with a £2K budget, thats a nice set of 50mm aeros on top! I'd be very tempted by this with enough left over to get some new aero wheels.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 23 June 15:14
el stovey said:
IroningMan said:
Tough to beat a Plenet-X Exocet at £2k. 82/101 wheelset plus an Aerojacket.
The OP thinks they're too "Bargain basement" for him.
At the end of the day, it's the OP's money and he's free to spend it as he wishes; would be a shame to discount Planet X though. Hope you find a bike that's right for you.
T350 Al said:
My 'bargain basement' Stealth Pro Carbon went pinging past a fair few Cervelos, Time Machines and an S-Works at the Scottish Champs last week!
At the end of the day, it's the OP's money and he's free to spend it as he wishes; would be a shame to discount Planet X though. Hope you find a bike that's right for you.
I know a couple of guys on PX's who run 20-21 min 10 mile TT'sAt the end of the day, it's the OP's money and he's free to spend it as he wishes; would be a shame to discount Planet X though. Hope you find a bike that's right for you.
The bikes performance isnt in question but I can totally understand the 'want' for something a bit different.
Gosh I seem to have incensed some people here. Let me explain my rational.
Take the Cervelo P2 - that frame has been designed to an incredible level, every inch of it has been seemingly considered and it represented huge levels of innovation. That is the kind of 'function' I talk about.
Now with the Planet X, I can't see how it's been designed to the same level. It's a cheap frame made in China, and forgive me but I don't see the innovation. But it looks good. I appreciate that may cone across as very damning, but I don't mean it as so. In car terms, I guess they are like TVR - the end result is ultimately the same but it lacks the development and finesse of say a Ferrari. Yes both do 0-60mph in 4 secs but one is a big budget supercar built on F1 principles in a windtunnel and the other was built in a shed in Blackpool.
I personally prefer technical brilliance, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Regarding the comments about top level bikes with naff wheels, I too found that difficult to fatham. But I figure many people either already have race wheels or know what they want, by supplying a bike with training wheels then manufacturers are allowing people the choice.
Take the Cervelo P2 - that frame has been designed to an incredible level, every inch of it has been seemingly considered and it represented huge levels of innovation. That is the kind of 'function' I talk about.
Now with the Planet X, I can't see how it's been designed to the same level. It's a cheap frame made in China, and forgive me but I don't see the innovation. But it looks good. I appreciate that may cone across as very damning, but I don't mean it as so. In car terms, I guess they are like TVR - the end result is ultimately the same but it lacks the development and finesse of say a Ferrari. Yes both do 0-60mph in 4 secs but one is a big budget supercar built on F1 principles in a windtunnel and the other was built in a shed in Blackpool.
I personally prefer technical brilliance, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Regarding the comments about top level bikes with naff wheels, I too found that difficult to fatham. But I figure many people either already have race wheels or know what they want, by supplying a bike with training wheels then manufacturers are allowing people the choice.
pablo said:
Valuing function over anything else, consider getting a good frame and building something up yourself using the online stores like ribble and crc for the components. If it were me and I had £2k to drop on a tt bike, i'd build something really nice using the Dolan Stryke frame
http://www.dolan-bikes.com/tt-triathlon/frame-sets... using a mix of components and some 50mm Gigantex carbon clinchers from Wheelsmith. see http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/road-wheels-prices for details, gigantex carbomn clinchers on novatec hubs are a million times better than the shimano r500s on the slice 105 and this is where the difference on a tt bike matters.
by my basic maths, that leaves you about £650 from your £2K budget to finish the build which is easy. Ribble sell the 105 groupset for £400 http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/groupset.asp?action=... (without sti shifters, groupsets are surprisingly cheap!)so you will need brake levers, bars, stem and saddle for £250.
Interesting thought, thanks Pablohttp://www.dolan-bikes.com/tt-triathlon/frame-sets... using a mix of components and some 50mm Gigantex carbon clinchers from Wheelsmith. see http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/road-wheels-prices for details, gigantex carbomn clinchers on novatec hubs are a million times better than the shimano r500s on the slice 105 and this is where the difference on a tt bike matters.
by my basic maths, that leaves you about £650 from your £2K budget to finish the build which is easy. Ribble sell the 105 groupset for £400 http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/groupset.asp?action=... (without sti shifters, groupsets are surprisingly cheap!)so you will need brake levers, bars, stem and saddle for £250.
Edited by pablo on Saturday 23 June 15:11
TallTony said:
Gosh I seem to have incensed some people here. Let me explain my rational.
Take the Cervelo P2 - that frame has been designed to an incredible level, every inch of it has been seemingly considered and it represented huge levels of innovation. That is the kind of 'function' I talk about.
Now with the Planet X, I can't see how it's been designed to the same level. It's a cheap frame made in China, and forgive me but I don't see the innovation. But it looks good. I appreciate that may cone across as very damning, but I don't mean it as so. In car terms, I guess they are like TVR - the end result is ultimately the same but it lacks the development and finesse of say a Ferrari. Yes both do 0-60mph in 4 secs but one is a big budget supercar built on F1 principles in a windtunnel and the other was built in a shed in Blackpool.
I personally prefer technical brilliance, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Regarding the comments about top level bikes with naff wheels, I too found that difficult to fatham. But I figure many people either already have race wheels or know what they want, by supplying a bike with training wheels then manufacturers are allowing people the choice.
You could compare Ferrari and TVR or you could compare Ferrari and Pagani, I know which one I'd be getting. Planet-X have managed to produce the same performance, for less money, allowing you to spend more on the components and you'd rather have the same performance, pay more for it and then spend less on the components? Take the Cervelo P2 - that frame has been designed to an incredible level, every inch of it has been seemingly considered and it represented huge levels of innovation. That is the kind of 'function' I talk about.
Now with the Planet X, I can't see how it's been designed to the same level. It's a cheap frame made in China, and forgive me but I don't see the innovation. But it looks good. I appreciate that may cone across as very damning, but I don't mean it as so. In car terms, I guess they are like TVR - the end result is ultimately the same but it lacks the development and finesse of say a Ferrari. Yes both do 0-60mph in 4 secs but one is a big budget supercar built on F1 principles in a windtunnel and the other was built in a shed in Blackpool.
I personally prefer technical brilliance, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Regarding the comments about top level bikes with naff wheels, I too found that difficult to fatham. But I figure many people either already have race wheels or know what they want, by supplying a bike with training wheels then manufacturers are allowing people the choice.
OP, how tall are you, my Ridley is going up for sale. I built it over winter as I wanted something a bit different. Have a search on the bike, they spent a fortune developing it and the result is something that isn't overly harsh but is very quick.
http://db.tt/9vQA0bxo
Not going to be doing many TT's this year and it's too nice to be sat around. If I can sell it then I will be able to fund the Venge build.
http://db.tt/9vQA0bxo
Not going to be doing many TT's this year and it's too nice to be sat around. If I can sell it then I will be able to fund the Venge build.
yonex said:
I know a couple of guys on PX's who run 20-21 min 10 mile TT's
The bikes performance isnt in question but I can totally understand the 'want' for something a bit different.
Absolutely. If I could justify the spend, I'd kill for an S-Works as they are very, very nice!The bikes performance isnt in question but I can totally understand the 'want' for something a bit different.
OP- apologies if my post came across negatively; it wasn't a dig,more an owner's experience/view. For my budget, I wanted as high a spec as possible and couldn't beat PX. I ended up with a VERY quick bike for the cash.
I really do hope you find a bike that flicks your switch!
I have a Planet X Exocet, a Specialised Roubaix, as well as a Specialised S Works Tarmac SL3. Also I have had a close look at the Fondriest bikes with the rep at a LBS opening day.
Well if you look carefully you will see that all of the above are made in the far East with the exception of the very top of the range Fondriest that is hand built in Italy.
Talking to the rep that had been to the far East to see the factories, he said the facilities are brilliant and there is no way the West can compete on price so the majority of production will reside in the far East.
As far as development of frames and components go there are more than enough good ones out there to copy and improve upon, the theme at the moment appears to be smooth clean lines this will take a small step forward with the DI2 system and full internal fitting of gear cables, this is very pleasing to the eye and looks fast, but in the big picture probably makes very small differences to the performance.
The biggest aero drag on a TT bike is the rider so the position needs to be set up right now at this point please consider that Planet X have a fitting service and will spend the time with you to get the bike set up right for you, it is a proper service with video and a fitting system called The Retül bike-fit system and details can be found on their web site. But beware that an aero position may not produce the most power so there is a trade off to be had between power and an aero position.
After that most efficient position on the bike the wheels are the area of greatest performance improvement With the Planet X bike you can have a set of aero wheels in the package these are not the best wheels out there as they are a around 200g heavier that some others but a fraction of the cost so that may be the best all round wheel set, [I have a set of Dura ace wheels a set os SWISS DT wheels and some training wheels as well as the planet X wheels] I recently stripped the free hub and bearings on all the above wheels and found the design of the Planet x and Swiss DT wheels to be very close....... the difference being materials and finish the Planet x hubs where a less smooth finish where it was not needed the DT wheels where a smooth machined finish every where both used sealed machine bearings. The Dura ace wheels use loose balls for the bearings.
After all of that the part of the equation that make the bike move fast is you and the training you put in and here lies the greatest room for improvment with a structured training plan the correct diet and rest you will improve.
Well if you look carefully you will see that all of the above are made in the far East with the exception of the very top of the range Fondriest that is hand built in Italy.
Talking to the rep that had been to the far East to see the factories, he said the facilities are brilliant and there is no way the West can compete on price so the majority of production will reside in the far East.
As far as development of frames and components go there are more than enough good ones out there to copy and improve upon, the theme at the moment appears to be smooth clean lines this will take a small step forward with the DI2 system and full internal fitting of gear cables, this is very pleasing to the eye and looks fast, but in the big picture probably makes very small differences to the performance.
The biggest aero drag on a TT bike is the rider so the position needs to be set up right now at this point please consider that Planet X have a fitting service and will spend the time with you to get the bike set up right for you, it is a proper service with video and a fitting system called The Retül bike-fit system and details can be found on their web site. But beware that an aero position may not produce the most power so there is a trade off to be had between power and an aero position.
After that most efficient position on the bike the wheels are the area of greatest performance improvement With the Planet X bike you can have a set of aero wheels in the package these are not the best wheels out there as they are a around 200g heavier that some others but a fraction of the cost so that may be the best all round wheel set, [I have a set of Dura ace wheels a set os SWISS DT wheels and some training wheels as well as the planet X wheels] I recently stripped the free hub and bearings on all the above wheels and found the design of the Planet x and Swiss DT wheels to be very close....... the difference being materials and finish the Planet x hubs where a less smooth finish where it was not needed the DT wheels where a smooth machined finish every where both used sealed machine bearings. The Dura ace wheels use loose balls for the bearings.
After all of that the part of the equation that make the bike move fast is you and the training you put in and here lies the greatest room for improvment with a structured training plan the correct diet and rest you will improve.
yonex said:
OP, how tall are you, my Ridley is going up for sale. I built it over winter as I wanted something a bit different. Have a search on the bike, they spent a fortune developing it and the result is something that isn't overly harsh but is very quick.
http://db.tt/9vQA0bxo
Not going to be doing many TT's this year and it's too nice to be sat around. If I can sell it then I will be able to fund the Venge build.
I'm 6'3... If its a fit them PM mehttp://db.tt/9vQA0bxo
Not going to be doing many TT's this year and it's too nice to be sat around. If I can sell it then I will be able to fund the Venge build.
TallTony said:
Gosh I seem to have incensed some people here. Let me explain my rational.
Take the Cervelo P2 - that frame has been designed to an incredible level, every inch of it has been seemingly considered and it represented huge levels of innovation. That is the kind of 'function' I talk about.
Now with the Planet X, I can't see how it's been designed to the same level. It's a cheap frame made in China, and forgive me but I don't see the innovation. But it looks good. I appreciate that may cone across as very damning, but I don't mean it as so. In car terms, I guess they are like TVR - the end result is ultimately the same but it lacks the development and finesse of say a Ferrari. Yes both do 0-60mph in 4 secs but one is a big budget supercar built on F1 principles in a windtunnel and the other was built in a shed in Blackpool.
I personally prefer technical brilliance, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Regarding the comments about top level bikes with naff wheels, I too found that difficult to fatham. But I figure many people either already have race wheels or know what they want, by supplying a bike with training wheels then manufacturers are allowing people the choice.
with all due respect, the bikes you mentioned in the first post are all cheap frames made in the far east but I suspect many peoplr are seduced by the big name on the side. Comparing bikes to cars always makes me smile, just like none of us could drive a ferrari to its limit, none of us could ride a cervelo p5 to its limit, the common factor in both is the ability of the individual in control. Now i'm going to slightly contradict myself here because I always think that if you can afford something, and you like it, no one should stop you having it. Its why I have a cervelo rs, i bought it because i could afford it and i liked it, not because Hushovd rode it to third in paris roubaix or because it has some technical innovation, and yet i just trundle along on sportives and generally have a good time without every featuring near the top of any time sheets, I always say that you dont need a fistful of results to justify what bike you ride BUT..... Take the Cervelo P2 - that frame has been designed to an incredible level, every inch of it has been seemingly considered and it represented huge levels of innovation. That is the kind of 'function' I talk about.
Now with the Planet X, I can't see how it's been designed to the same level. It's a cheap frame made in China, and forgive me but I don't see the innovation. But it looks good. I appreciate that may cone across as very damning, but I don't mean it as so. In car terms, I guess they are like TVR - the end result is ultimately the same but it lacks the development and finesse of say a Ferrari. Yes both do 0-60mph in 4 secs but one is a big budget supercar built on F1 principles in a windtunnel and the other was built in a shed in Blackpool.
I personally prefer technical brilliance, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Regarding the comments about top level bikes with naff wheels, I too found that difficult to fatham. But I figure many people either already have race wheels or know what they want, by supplying a bike with training wheels then manufacturers are allowing people the choice.
there is also a small part of me that thinks the person who wants a cervelo p2, not because they like it, but because it represents the highest level of technical innovation featured on a bicycle had better be able to make the most of that technical innovation otherwise you might as well be racing on anything. if you cant pedal fast enough to ride a 25m 10TT on a planet x, you wont be doing it on a cervelo p2 either. buy the p2 becuase you like it and you can afford it, not because it features the highest level of technical innovation that you wont notice or can not take advantage of.
I dont know about the wheel spec issue, i'm willing to bet that anyone buying an off the peg £2K tt bike doesnt have a nice pair of carbon tubs in the garage going spare
I spent some time talking to Stephen Colbert at the Autosport show a few years ago.
http://www.colbertcycles.com/S1.aspx
I've lusted after one of his bikes ever since, but never seen any write up on them.
I would have thought the Colbert S1 worthy of looking at, and I'd be interested to hear the view of someone who has looked at them and knows more about carbon frames than I do.
http://www.colbertcycles.com/S1.aspx
I've lusted after one of his bikes ever since, but never seen any write up on them.
I would have thought the Colbert S1 worthy of looking at, and I'd be interested to hear the view of someone who has looked at them and knows more about carbon frames than I do.
Paul Drawmer said:
I spent some time talking to Stephen Colbert at the Autosport show a few years ago.
http://www.colbertcycles.com/S1.aspx
I've lusted after one of his bikes ever since, but never seen any write up on them.
I would have thought the Colbert S1 worthy of looking at, and I'd be interested to hear the view of someone who has looked at them and knows more about carbon frames than I do.
The covert s1 uses toray m40 carbon, almost certainly assembled in Taiwan by a reputable factory that makes the well known stuff. I found this on another forum which explains carbon fibre cycle frames quite well http://www.colbertcycles.com/S1.aspx
I've lusted after one of his bikes ever since, but never seen any write up on them.
I would have thought the Colbert S1 worthy of looking at, and I'd be interested to hear the view of someone who has looked at them and knows more about carbon frames than I do.
The Modulus of Elasticity (I'll just call it modulus), is how much the material stretches when stressed. This value is directly related to how stiff the material is. A high modulus material like Toray's M40 carbon fiber is very elastic and resilient compared to Toray's M30S carbon fiber, which is much stiffer and stronger in tension and torsion. Because the M30S fibers are stiffer, they are more likely to break when they are stressed to much. The M40 fibers will continue to stretch while not breaking when they reach their threshold. It is possible to deform high modulus fibres however.
Modulus is measured in GPa (Gigapascals). High Modulus materials are in the 250-350 GPa range, while low modulus/high strength materials are in the 100-250 GPa range.
Using a high modulus material reinforced by a low modulus/high strength material in certain areas is how most frames are constructed.
Using high modulus fibres for the seatstays will allow them to bend and give a little when they are compressed. Conversely, using low modulus/high strength fibers in an area that sees a lot of torsion and tension, like the bottom bracket or headtube, will make that area of the frame stiffer than the high modulus material would.
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