Titanium vs Carbon - experience, opinions.............?
Discussion
To cut a very long story short-ish, I am in a very fortunate position of having a ‘decent’ bike bought for me in the very near future. I hit 40 in a few months time and rather than buy a watch or pair of cufflinks, my wife is insisting on buying me a new road bike.
I currently ride an alu/carbon Felt F75 which is more than adequate for my needs, is reasonably fast, reasonably lightweight and easy on the eye – so choosing an ‘upgrade’ where I will see any kind of significant gain is proving a challenge. My style of riding tends to be ‘head down and peddle hard’, I enjoy climbing, and rides vary from short 20 milers to 60-80 mile Sunday morning spins with the odd century.
My personal view is I have two options; something more lightweight (carbon) that will allow me to go faster, or a ‘frame for life’ (Ti) that probably won’t be any lighter but should outlast me!
I am currently considering a few bikes;
Full Carbon Felt F series – direct upgrade from my current bike
Trek Domane 5.2 – not ridden one yet but like the look of the bike and frame technology
Didiacciai K19 – stunning looking bike, LBS has built a frameset with Force/Red groupo
Van Nicholas Chinook – again stunning looking bike, built to spec
I have not ridden any of the bikes yet, but plan to do so over the next couple of weeks.
I am interested to hear the opinions and experiences of PH-ers who ride Carbon or Ti, or better still both; how do the two materials compare from the saddle?, will carbon really be significantly quicker than Ti?, longevity of frame material – Ti is not in question but what does a Carbon frame look like after 5 years of riding? Anything else I should be considering? If you could only have 1 bike in the garage what would it be, Carbon or Ti?
To put things into perspective we would never usually spend this sort of money on a bike, so I want to make sure I get it right!
I currently ride an alu/carbon Felt F75 which is more than adequate for my needs, is reasonably fast, reasonably lightweight and easy on the eye – so choosing an ‘upgrade’ where I will see any kind of significant gain is proving a challenge. My style of riding tends to be ‘head down and peddle hard’, I enjoy climbing, and rides vary from short 20 milers to 60-80 mile Sunday morning spins with the odd century.
My personal view is I have two options; something more lightweight (carbon) that will allow me to go faster, or a ‘frame for life’ (Ti) that probably won’t be any lighter but should outlast me!
I am currently considering a few bikes;
Full Carbon Felt F series – direct upgrade from my current bike
Trek Domane 5.2 – not ridden one yet but like the look of the bike and frame technology
Didiacciai K19 – stunning looking bike, LBS has built a frameset with Force/Red groupo
Van Nicholas Chinook – again stunning looking bike, built to spec
I have not ridden any of the bikes yet, but plan to do so over the next couple of weeks.
I am interested to hear the opinions and experiences of PH-ers who ride Carbon or Ti, or better still both; how do the two materials compare from the saddle?, will carbon really be significantly quicker than Ti?, longevity of frame material – Ti is not in question but what does a Carbon frame look like after 5 years of riding? Anything else I should be considering? If you could only have 1 bike in the garage what would it be, Carbon or Ti?
To put things into perspective we would never usually spend this sort of money on a bike, so I want to make sure I get it right!
You really need to test ride. You can make titanium framed bikes lighter than most off the shelf carbon bikes with careful component and wheel choice. Titanium is quite springy so offers some degree of frame flex like steel does.
I can't say the ti bikes on your shortlist would be on mine to be honest. You could also look at a Lynskey R230, Enigma Echo and I would also look very closely at a Rourke 953 full custom steel for the same sort of money.
I can't say the ti bikes on your shortlist would be on mine to be honest. You could also look at a Lynskey R230, Enigma Echo and I would also look very closely at a Rourke 953 full custom steel for the same sort of money.
have had a titanium litespeed 'ultimate' for 5 years now
unusual frame as its got carbon rear stays - but the general ride that titanium can give is great
mine seems to 'float' over the worst of the road surface - compared to carbon bikes I have ridden which have always
felt harsh. As an all-day ride it's so comfy - did a 132 mile etape ride few years back with it and it felt great.
it has been used for club rides, cat4 racing, sportive's, etc and has coped with them all superbly
only thing with titanium is it can have issues with cracking - mine had problem of cracks around integrated headset, which litespeed had at the time (most Ti manufacturers have gone away from this design now) - it had to go back
to USA for new headtube - came back absolutely fine (3 years ago now)
I am still not sure on the whole 'bike for life' idea with Ti, as it can fail - but compared to the amount of carbon frames I have seen snapped/damaged, I still prefer Ti (or a very high end steel)
my choice of manufacturer would be Moots, or Pegoretti
hope this has helped
regards - TB
unusual frame as its got carbon rear stays - but the general ride that titanium can give is great
mine seems to 'float' over the worst of the road surface - compared to carbon bikes I have ridden which have always
felt harsh. As an all-day ride it's so comfy - did a 132 mile etape ride few years back with it and it felt great.
it has been used for club rides, cat4 racing, sportive's, etc and has coped with them all superbly
only thing with titanium is it can have issues with cracking - mine had problem of cracks around integrated headset, which litespeed had at the time (most Ti manufacturers have gone away from this design now) - it had to go back
to USA for new headtube - came back absolutely fine (3 years ago now)
I am still not sure on the whole 'bike for life' idea with Ti, as it can fail - but compared to the amount of carbon frames I have seen snapped/damaged, I still prefer Ti (or a very high end steel)
my choice of manufacturer would be Moots, or Pegoretti
hope this has helped
regards - TB
You're in a very lovely and privileged position here, so it's all good.
My only thought would be that it's only going to be a couple of years before disk brakes become properly available on road bikes, so investing in a 'forever bike' at this stage may mean you end up on old technology quite soon.
I'm sure there will be plenty of died in the wool roadies who suggest this is never going to happen because of the weight and the lack of need for such powerful braking, but it's already happening with cyclo-cross, and the difference it has made to MTB's is incredible. Once the UCI say yes, then the likes of SRAM, Shimano and Campag will use their not inconsiderable R&D budgets to make it all work with the gear systems.
My only thought would be that it's only going to be a couple of years before disk brakes become properly available on road bikes, so investing in a 'forever bike' at this stage may mean you end up on old technology quite soon.
I'm sure there will be plenty of died in the wool roadies who suggest this is never going to happen because of the weight and the lack of need for such powerful braking, but it's already happening with cyclo-cross, and the difference it has made to MTB's is incredible. Once the UCI say yes, then the likes of SRAM, Shimano and Campag will use their not inconsiderable R&D budgets to make it all work with the gear systems.
JPJ said:
You're in a very lovely and privileged position here, so it's all good.
My only thought would be that it's only going to be a couple of years before disk brakes become properly available on road bikes, so investing in a 'forever bike' at this stage may mean you end up on old technology quite soon.
I'm sure there will be plenty of died in the wool roadies who suggest this is never going to happen because of the weight and the lack of need for such powerful braking, but it's already happening with cyclo-cross, and the difference it has made to MTB's is incredible. Once the UCI say yes, then the likes of SRAM, Shimano and Campag will use their not inconsiderable R&D budgets to make it all work with the gear systems.
But with cross, you gain from the issues mud will cause on rim brakes - no such gains to be had from the road...My only thought would be that it's only going to be a couple of years before disk brakes become properly available on road bikes, so investing in a 'forever bike' at this stage may mean you end up on old technology quite soon.
I'm sure there will be plenty of died in the wool roadies who suggest this is never going to happen because of the weight and the lack of need for such powerful braking, but it's already happening with cyclo-cross, and the difference it has made to MTB's is incredible. Once the UCI say yes, then the likes of SRAM, Shimano and Campag will use their not inconsiderable R&D budgets to make it all work with the gear systems.
Can't see it happening to be honest
Rolls said:
JPJ said:
You're in a very lovely and privileged position here, so it's all good.
My only thought would be that it's only going to be a couple of years before disk brakes become properly available on road bikes, so investing in a 'forever bike' at this stage may mean you end up on old technology quite soon.
I'm sure there will be plenty of died in the wool roadies who suggest this is never going to happen because of the weight and the lack of need for such powerful braking, but it's already happening with cyclo-cross, and the difference it has made to MTB's is incredible. Once the UCI say yes, then the likes of SRAM, Shimano and Campag will use their not inconsiderable R&D budgets to make it all work with the gear systems.
But with cross, you gain from the issues mud will cause on rim brakes - no such gains to be had from the road...My only thought would be that it's only going to be a couple of years before disk brakes become properly available on road bikes, so investing in a 'forever bike' at this stage may mean you end up on old technology quite soon.
I'm sure there will be plenty of died in the wool roadies who suggest this is never going to happen because of the weight and the lack of need for such powerful braking, but it's already happening with cyclo-cross, and the difference it has made to MTB's is incredible. Once the UCI say yes, then the likes of SRAM, Shimano and Campag will use their not inconsiderable R&D budgets to make it all work with the gear systems.
Can't see it happening to be honest
I'm still a beginner although I've been riding for a few years now. I recently treated myself to full carbon from an old steel frame (with reasonable wheels, tyres and components). The difference was astonishing. The carbon is so comfortable and smooth it's unreal, even though it was described as a stiffer frame. It picks up speed like you won't believe and is incredibly stable.
I didn't road test many before I bought it as it just felt right on the day. I sat on loads though. Perhaps I just got lucky.
I can't help you with Ti but this is my little note on my experience with carbon so far.
I didn't road test many before I bought it as it just felt right on the day. I sat on loads though. Perhaps I just got lucky.
I can't help you with Ti but this is my little note on my experience with carbon so far.
Bear in mind that a lifetime warranty on a (Ti) frame does not mean your lifetime, but what the manufacturer considers the acceptable lifetime of a frame. Some manufactures such as Specalized and Trek who offer these warranties will honour warranties on old bikes, but other manufactures such as Litespeed consider the frame lifetime to be 5 years, google Litespeed warranty problems for multiple threads.
Just something to ponder before you buy a bike for life...
Just something to ponder before you buy a bike for life...
JPJ said:
You're in a very lovely and privileged position here, so it's all good.
My only thought would be that it's only going to be a couple of years before disk brakes become properly available on road bikes, so investing in a 'forever bike' at this stage may mean you end up on old technology quite soon.
I'm sure there will be plenty of died in the wool roadies who suggest this is never going to happen because of the weight and the lack of need for such powerful braking, but it's already happening with cyclo-cross, and the difference it has made to MTB's is incredible. Once the UCI say yes, then the likes of SRAM, Shimano and Campag will use their not inconsiderable R&D budgets to make it all work with the gear systems.
might be worth checking out custom builders like Justin Burls? There's at least one guy kicking around with a Burls disc-braked bike. Although that also means messing around with 130mm (current) or 135mm (likely future) dropout spacing standard.My only thought would be that it's only going to be a couple of years before disk brakes become properly available on road bikes, so investing in a 'forever bike' at this stage may mean you end up on old technology quite soon.
I'm sure there will be plenty of died in the wool roadies who suggest this is never going to happen because of the weight and the lack of need for such powerful braking, but it's already happening with cyclo-cross, and the difference it has made to MTB's is incredible. Once the UCI say yes, then the likes of SRAM, Shimano and Campag will use their not inconsiderable R&D budgets to make it all work with the gear systems.
Anyway, I'm sticking with "Ti is better because it's shiny"
personally, I wouldnt buy a complete bike, choose the right frame for your requirements and bulid up the bike from there. I can almost guarantee that you will get better value for money and a much better overall package if you do it this way. I would also go with a Lynksey if you go for a ti frame, the cooper and the sportive are stunning. Enigma, VN etc are nice too but i'd regret not getting a lynskey were it me.
as for carbon, a well designed frame can be as stiff or as forgiving as the manufacturer wants it to be dependant upon the thickness and the weave of the carbon used in the critical points of a frame. to say as some have suggested that you will be faster on a carbon bike or that carbon frames are stiffer/faster/lighter than ti/steel/alu by virtue of being carbon is incorrect, each frame is designed with different intentions...
as for carbon, a well designed frame can be as stiff or as forgiving as the manufacturer wants it to be dependant upon the thickness and the weave of the carbon used in the critical points of a frame. to say as some have suggested that you will be faster on a carbon bike or that carbon frames are stiffer/faster/lighter than ti/steel/alu by virtue of being carbon is incorrect, each frame is designed with different intentions...
Rode a carbon Madone for years, and now ride a Condor Moda (summer) and a Van Nich (winter) - both Ti obviously. I'd never go back to carbon unless I was a serious cat 1 racer - Titanium is so beautiful, so silky to ride, so robust - both in frame material and also finish, and, well, bikes aren't supposed to be made of plastic. Ti all the way...
I have a carbon (Opera Leonardo) which I have had for 7 years and a Ti (Litespeed Vortex) which I have had for 5 years. (don't ask how!)
Both are fantastic and far better bikes than I am a cyclist. When I did JoGLE, there was never the slightest doubt it would be on the Litespeed. It is a little lighter (irrelevant given my body habitus!) nicer to ride (smoother and every bit as stiff) and very robust. The Opera is a beautiful bike, but Ti is my preference. Whilst I love the carbon bike, you lust after Ti!!
However, in the end, ride both sorts and get one that fits perfectly, which is far more important than what it is made of!
Both are fantastic and far better bikes than I am a cyclist. When I did JoGLE, there was never the slightest doubt it would be on the Litespeed. It is a little lighter (irrelevant given my body habitus!) nicer to ride (smoother and every bit as stiff) and very robust. The Opera is a beautiful bike, but Ti is my preference. Whilst I love the carbon bike, you lust after Ti!!
However, in the end, ride both sorts and get one that fits perfectly, which is far more important than what it is made of!
In the real world, it'll make absolutely no difference to you, the speed/distance you ride or the things you do on and with your bike. So just go for the one that you think looks the best, and since you're planning on keeping it a long time, the one you think will date the least and you could see yourself still happily riding (maybe with replaced components in 10 years time). I'd guess Ti would be the better bet in this situation since a traditional round tubed frame will never go out of style or become obsolete. Whereas a modern carbon 'gadget' bike has an air of obsolescence about it as soon as the new model is released, even if it's technically still a brilliant bit of kit.
That's coming from a Van Nicolas Ti and Cervelo carbon owner. The Cervelo is by far the better bike and is my favourite, but if I had to get rid of all mine and pick a new bike to last me the rest of my days, I'd be looking at a traditional Ti or 953 frame.
The one thing I'd want to make sure of is to have a painted frame. Bored to death of all the brushed grey Ti bikes around. You can do so much more and Ti is common enough and cheap enough that you don't need a raw finish to show off to the world that your frame is Ti. And the weight/maintenance benefits don't really mean much.
That's coming from a Van Nicolas Ti and Cervelo carbon owner. The Cervelo is by far the better bike and is my favourite, but if I had to get rid of all mine and pick a new bike to last me the rest of my days, I'd be looking at a traditional Ti or 953 frame.
The one thing I'd want to make sure of is to have a painted frame. Bored to death of all the brushed grey Ti bikes around. You can do so much more and Ti is common enough and cheap enough that you don't need a raw finish to show off to the world that your frame is Ti. And the weight/maintenance benefits don't really mean much.
Edited by Uriel on Thursday 9th August 12:08
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