Advice please; Campag cassette change?
Discussion
Having wanted a lower gear for a while I've ordered a new cassette (12-30) for my Campagnolo Veloce 10 speed Bianchi. The bike/group set has done approximately 3000 miles.
Sorry but a few questions;
1. How necessary do you think a new chain is?
2. If I get a new chain should I get a longer one (the current cassette is 11-26)?
3. Will the standard Campag chain have some sort special link, or do I just use a chain breaker anywhere on it's length?
4. Apart from a chain whip, Campag cassette remover and chain breaker is there anything else I may need?
Cheers
Paul
Sorry but a few questions;
1. How necessary do you think a new chain is?
2. If I get a new chain should I get a longer one (the current cassette is 11-26)?
3. Will the standard Campag chain have some sort special link, or do I just use a chain breaker anywhere on it's length?
4. Apart from a chain whip, Campag cassette remover and chain breaker is there anything else I may need?
Cheers
Paul
Edited by caul pope on Sunday 11th January 21:13
Campag cassette sprockets are stacked and not bolted together so buy carefully and you can mix and match to get exactly the ratios you want. I've found it best not to break chains and use the special links, chain seems stronger, mech should easily deal with a slightly bigger sprocket. All depends on how worn but it wont break the bank to stick a new chain on.
Cheers for the replies guys.
I didn't realise I could mix and match sprockets but if the original cogs appear worn and I'm getting a new chain I probably won't.
I read up about deraliure length and most responses suggested as long as you don't use big front/big back you should be ok.
Should my chain have some sort of link, if so how do I open/undo it?
Thanks again!
I didn't realise I could mix and match sprockets but if the original cogs appear worn and I'm getting a new chain I probably won't.
I read up about deraliure length and most responses suggested as long as you don't use big front/big back you should be ok.
Should my chain have some sort of link, if so how do I open/undo it?
Thanks again!
Edited by caul pope on Sunday 11th January 21:14
caul pope said:
Cheers for the replies guys.
I read up about deraliure length and must responses suggested as long as you don't use big front/big back you should be ok.
Big front big back would be solvable with a longer chain.I read up about deraliure length and must responses suggested as long as you don't use big front/big back you should be ok.
It is more to do with the jockey wheel on a short cage rear mech not clearing the 30 tooth sprocket; thus it hits the 30 tooth sprocket laterally when trying to shift up onto it IYSWIM.
Get Karter said:
Big front big back would be solvable with a longer chain.
It is more to do with the jockey wheel on a short cage rear mech not clearing the 30 tooth sprocket; thus it hits the 30 tooth sprocket laterally when trying to shift up onto it IYSWIM.
Cheers Get Carter, I wasn't actually sure why different length cages are needed. To be honest I don't actually know if I have a short/medium/long, as the standard cassette is 11-26 what do you think it could be?It is more to do with the jockey wheel on a short cage rear mech not clearing the 30 tooth sprocket; thus it hits the 30 tooth sprocket laterally when trying to shift up onto it IYSWIM.
Sorry, another question; is there anyway of knowing how many links a chain has apart from doing the obvious thing of counting them!?
Cheers
Edited by caul pope on Sunday 11th January 21:17
Yeah, I am speaking from bitter experience. Tried to fit a 30t rear to a short cage (Shimano 105) rear derailleur and I had to screw in the B adjuster screw the whole way AND shorten the chain a few links to get the derailleur to clear the block and shift onto the 30t.
It made a horrible chain grinding sound even after shifting, as the jockey wheels were squeezing the chain against the 30t teeth.
A medium cage would work fine with a 30.
ETA: need to count chain links as most chains are shortened from new to fit the bike. If there's an obvious link, then count from there. If not, mark one link with a marker pen and count from there!
It made a horrible chain grinding sound even after shifting, as the jockey wheels were squeezing the chain against the 30t teeth.
A medium cage would work fine with a 30.
ETA: need to count chain links as most chains are shortened from new to fit the bike. If there's an obvious link, then count from there. If not, mark one link with a marker pen and count from there!
Edited by Get Karter on Sunday 11th January 21:39
Edited by Get Karter on Sunday 11th January 21:42
caul pope said:
Great advice, thank you .
Several things to note here ...Edited by caul pope on Sunday 11th January 22:03
You can't compare Shimano practice to Campagnolo - they specify the maximum sprocket sizes differently and Campagnolo on their standard cage have a wider range than Shimano, although this in itself is slightly dependant on the frame fitting Campagnolo's Spec (broadly similar tp Shimano and SRAM and followed by most of the framebuilding industry in recent years - but older, especially steel retro frames can & do differ).
DON'T work on the basis that "if I don't use big-big it'll work OK" - if you "do" grab that gear by accident and you don't have enough chain length, it'll cost you a RD and a chain, a gear hanger, probably a cassette after you have done a couple of 1000 km and if you are really unlucky, the rear wheel as well. I have known it to scrap a frame too - not worth the risk. Use the kit as specced and you'll be OK - play fast and loose with the spec and you may live to regret it. Or if you fall off under the no.84 bus as a result, you may not ...
So, if it's a current or last year's Bianchi, the current RD will be fitted. The capacity given for this RD in the Campag technical manual is 12-30 teeth.
Chain length should be set so that on the smallest sprocket and the smaller chainring, the chain should be as long as it can be such that no part of the chain touches any other - so the run going back from the chainring to the lower jockey should clear the part of the chain that passes around the opper jockey, by between 5 and 12mm (max). If it's any shorter than this, at the other end of the range, you won't have enough chain to use big-big. Again, it's worth referring to the Campagnolo web site and the technical manual there for this: http://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_259_Tech...
Be wary though as the last mech to change the chaiin may not have set chain length this way - there are other ways to do it and the widely-used "Shimano method" will give you a chain length dependant on the size of the biggest sprocket on the cassette and so if you have, say, a 12-25 fitted mow and chain length has been set that way - you won't have enough chain.
Whether you need a new chain or not will be partly decided by conducting this test with the 12-30 cassette in place (or any other cassette starting on a 12, of course) - you can't really add links into a chain in general, although the joining kit for the Campag 10s (Campag part # CN-RE400) chains do allow you to add 1 full link in if that's all you need.
Why Medium and Long cage RDs? The range of chainring and sprocket sizes combined defines how much chain the RD needs to "wrap" so in cases of triple chainset use, a Medium or a Long cage may be needed to wrap enough chain to cope with, say, 34, 39, 52T chainrings at the front and 12-30, say, at the rear.
Bianchi double chainset system bikes will be fitted with a short cage because that is all that is needed.
HTH
Graeme
Campagnolo Mian Service Centre UK
Edited by gfkvelo on Monday 12th January 10:52
gfkvelo said:
Several things to note here ...
You can't compare Shimano practice to Campagnolo - they specify the maximum sprocket sizes differently and Campagnolo on their standard cage have a wider range than Shimano, although this in itself is slightly dependant on the frame fitting Campagnolo's Spec (broadly similar tp Shimano and SRAM and followed by most of the framebuilding industry in recent years - but older, especially steel retro frames can & do differ).
DON'T work on the basis that "if I don't use big-big it'll work OK" - if you "do" grab that gear by accident and you don't have enough chain length, it'll cost you a RD and a chain, a gear hanger, probably a cassette after you have done a couple of 1000 km and if you are really unlucky, the rear wheel as well. I have known it to scrap a frame too - not worth the risk. Use the kit as specced and you'll be OK - play fast and loose with the spec and you may live to regret it. Or if you fall off under the no.84 bus as a result, you may not ...
So, if it's a current or last year's Bianchi, the current RD will be fitted. The capacity given for this RD in the Campag technical manual is 12-30 teeth.
Chain length should be set so that on the smallest sprocket and the smaller chainring, the chain should be as long as it can be such that no part of the chain touches any other - so the run going back from the chainring to the lower jockey should clear the part of the chain that passes around the opper jockey, by between 5 and 12mm (max). If it's any shorter than this, at the other end of the range, you won't have enough chain to use big-big. Again, it's worth referring to the Campagnolo web site and the technical manual there for this: http://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_259_Tech...
Be wary though as the last mech to change the chaiin may not have set chain length this way - there are other ways to do it and the widely-used "Shimano method" will give you a chain length dependant on the size of the biggest sprocket on the cassette and so if you have, say, a 12-25 fitted mow and chain length has been set that way - you won't have enough chain.
Whether you need a new chain or not will be partly decided by conducting this test with the 12-30 cassette in place (or any other cassette starting on a 12, of course) - you can't really add links into a chain in general, although the joining kit for the Campag 10s (Campag part # CN-RE400) chains do allow you to add 1 full link in if that's all you need.
Why Medium and Long cage RDs? The range of chainring and sprocket sizes combined defines how much chain the RD needs to "wrap" so in cases of triple chainset use, a Medium or a Long cage may be needed to wrap enough chain to cope with, say, 34, 39, 52T chainrings at the front and 12-30, say, at the rear.
Bianchi double chainset system bikes will be fitted with a short cage because that is all that is needed.
HTH
Graeme
Campagnolo Mian Service Centre UK
Wow, thank you Graeme! If anyone should know Campagnolo it's you!You can't compare Shimano practice to Campagnolo - they specify the maximum sprocket sizes differently and Campagnolo on their standard cage have a wider range than Shimano, although this in itself is slightly dependant on the frame fitting Campagnolo's Spec (broadly similar tp Shimano and SRAM and followed by most of the framebuilding industry in recent years - but older, especially steel retro frames can & do differ).
DON'T work on the basis that "if I don't use big-big it'll work OK" - if you "do" grab that gear by accident and you don't have enough chain length, it'll cost you a RD and a chain, a gear hanger, probably a cassette after you have done a couple of 1000 km and if you are really unlucky, the rear wheel as well. I have known it to scrap a frame too - not worth the risk. Use the kit as specced and you'll be OK - play fast and loose with the spec and you may live to regret it. Or if you fall off under the no.84 bus as a result, you may not ...
So, if it's a current or last year's Bianchi, the current RD will be fitted. The capacity given for this RD in the Campag technical manual is 12-30 teeth.
Chain length should be set so that on the smallest sprocket and the smaller chainring, the chain should be as long as it can be such that no part of the chain touches any other - so the run going back from the chainring to the lower jockey should clear the part of the chain that passes around the opper jockey, by between 5 and 12mm (max). If it's any shorter than this, at the other end of the range, you won't have enough chain to use big-big. Again, it's worth referring to the Campagnolo web site and the technical manual there for this: http://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_259_Tech...
Be wary though as the last mech to change the chaiin may not have set chain length this way - there are other ways to do it and the widely-used "Shimano method" will give you a chain length dependant on the size of the biggest sprocket on the cassette and so if you have, say, a 12-25 fitted mow and chain length has been set that way - you won't have enough chain.
Whether you need a new chain or not will be partly decided by conducting this test with the 12-30 cassette in place (or any other cassette starting on a 12, of course) - you can't really add links into a chain in general, although the joining kit for the Campag 10s (Campag part # CN-RE400) chains do allow you to add 1 full link in if that's all you need.
Why Medium and Long cage RDs? The range of chainring and sprocket sizes combined defines how much chain the RD needs to "wrap" so in cases of triple chainset use, a Medium or a Long cage may be needed to wrap enough chain to cope with, say, 34, 39, 52T chainrings at the front and 12-30, say, at the rear.
Bianchi double chainset system bikes will be fitted with a short cage because that is all that is needed.
HTH
Graeme
Campagnolo Mian Service Centre UK
Edited by gfkvelo on Monday 12th January 10:52
Can I ask...
Do you recommend chain length measuring tools or an old fashioned metal rule?
I presume you may suggest I stick with a Campagnolo chain but I've read up a little and the KMC 10SL appears to get good reviews, the price is reasonable, it has the added advantage of quick/missing links and I wouldn't need to buy a specific Campag chain tool (which appear to be rather expensive!) Have you had any experiences of them being used with a 10 speed groupsets?
Many thanks!
PS - the bike is a 2008 model but it wasn't used until 2012 so the groupset hasn't had much use but it is an older version, I've got a feeling that this could mean my current RD won't like working with a 30t cassette
caul pope said:
Wow, thank you Graeme! If anyone should know Campagnolo it's you!
Can I ask...
Do you recommend chain length measuring tools or an old fashioned metal rule?
I presume you may suggest I stick with a Campagnolo chain but I've read up a little and the KMC 10SL appears to get good reviews, the price is reasonable, it has the added advantage of quick/missing links and I wouldn't need to buy a specific Campag chain tool (which appear to be rather expensive!) Have you had any experiences of them being used with a 10 speed groupsets?
Many thanks!
PS - the bike is a 2008 model but it wasn't used until 2012 so the groupset hasn't had much use but it is an older version, I've got a feeling that this could mean my current RD won't like working with a 30t cassette
First, listen to Graeme, because as you've realised, he knows what he is talking about.Can I ask...
Do you recommend chain length measuring tools or an old fashioned metal rule?
I presume you may suggest I stick with a Campagnolo chain but I've read up a little and the KMC 10SL appears to get good reviews, the price is reasonable, it has the added advantage of quick/missing links and I wouldn't need to buy a specific Campag chain tool (which appear to be rather expensive!) Have you had any experiences of them being used with a 10 speed groupsets?
Many thanks!
PS - the bike is a 2008 model but it wasn't used until 2012 so the groupset hasn't had much use but it is an older version, I've got a feeling that this could mean my current RD won't like working with a 30t cassette
Secondly, changing a chain seems wrapped in difficulty, but when you buy a Campy chain it comes with instructions. Use the right tools and follow them, and things won't go too far wrong.
Thirdly, there is a specific link to open when you open a Campy chain. Again, how to id it in the Campy instructions (IIRC the ones that come with the link to close the chain) - it has a slightly different looking rivet with a hollow centre to the others.
Fourthly, for measuring the length of chain that you need, you can (well, I do) use your eye. Again, the "how to" in the instructions that come with the chain. Measuring the wear of a chain requires a special little metal rule that slots into the gap between a set number of teeth - or at least it does once your chain is sufficiently worn. I wouldn't worry about that.
Fifthly, you can get a third party quick release link that will close and open a Campy chain (and, I think, add the odd link, but say that quietly while Graeme is around!). I'm running ones on a Campy 11s and a Campy 10s chain. Frankly, they are right sods to close and not much easier to open.
Finally, you can open and close a Campy chain with a relatively cheap Parktools tool. Just do it carefully, use the guide pin, and take your time. I've only had one chain snap on me, and that was entirely down to user error on my part.
gfkvelo said:
Several things to note here ...
You can't compare Shimano practice to Campagnolo - they specify the maximum sprocket sizes differently and Campagnolo on their standard cage have a wider range than Shimano, although this in itself is slightly dependant on the frame fitting Campagnolo's Spec (broadly similar tp Shimano and SRAM and followed by most of the framebuilding industry in recent years - but older, especially steel retro frames can & do differ).
DON'T work on the basis that "if I don't use big-big it'll work OK" - if you "do" grab that gear by accident and you don't have enough chain length, it'll cost you a RD and a chain, a gear hanger, probably a cassette after you have done a couple of 1000 km and if you are really unlucky, the rear wheel as well. I have known it to scrap a frame too - not worth the risk. Use the kit as specced and you'll be OK - play fast and loose with the spec and you may live to regret it. Or if you fall off under the no.84 bus as a result, you may not ...
So, if it's a current or last year's Bianchi, the current RD will be fitted. The capacity given for this RD in the Campag technical manual is 12-30 teeth.
Chain length should be set so that on the smallest sprocket and the smaller chainring, the chain should be as long as it can be such that no part of the chain touches any other - so the run going back from the chainring to the lower jockey should clear the part of the chain that passes around the opper jockey, by between 5 and 12mm (max). If it's any shorter than this, at the other end of the range, you won't have enough chain to use big-big. Again, it's worth referring to the Campagnolo web site and the technical manual there for this: http://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_259_Tech...
Be wary though as the last mech to change the chaiin may not have set chain length this way - there are other ways to do it and the widely-used "Shimano method" will give you a chain length dependant on the size of the biggest sprocket on the cassette and so if you have, say, a 12-25 fitted mow and chain length has been set that way - you won't have enough chain.
Whether you need a new chain or not will be partly decided by conducting this test with the 12-30 cassette in place (or any other cassette starting on a 12, of course) - you can't really add links into a chain in general, although the joining kit for the Campag 10s (Campag part # CN-RE400) chains do allow you to add 1 full link in if that's all you need.
Why Medium and Long cage RDs? The range of chainring and sprocket sizes combined defines how much chain the RD needs to "wrap" so in cases of triple chainset use, a Medium or a Long cage may be needed to wrap enough chain to cope with, say, 34, 39, 52T chainrings at the front and 12-30, say, at the rear.
Bianchi double chainset system bikes will be fitted with a short cage because that is all that is needed.
HTH
Graeme
Campagnolo Mian Service Centre UK
What a great post - chapeau!You can't compare Shimano practice to Campagnolo - they specify the maximum sprocket sizes differently and Campagnolo on their standard cage have a wider range than Shimano, although this in itself is slightly dependant on the frame fitting Campagnolo's Spec (broadly similar tp Shimano and SRAM and followed by most of the framebuilding industry in recent years - but older, especially steel retro frames can & do differ).
DON'T work on the basis that "if I don't use big-big it'll work OK" - if you "do" grab that gear by accident and you don't have enough chain length, it'll cost you a RD and a chain, a gear hanger, probably a cassette after you have done a couple of 1000 km and if you are really unlucky, the rear wheel as well. I have known it to scrap a frame too - not worth the risk. Use the kit as specced and you'll be OK - play fast and loose with the spec and you may live to regret it. Or if you fall off under the no.84 bus as a result, you may not ...
So, if it's a current or last year's Bianchi, the current RD will be fitted. The capacity given for this RD in the Campag technical manual is 12-30 teeth.
Chain length should be set so that on the smallest sprocket and the smaller chainring, the chain should be as long as it can be such that no part of the chain touches any other - so the run going back from the chainring to the lower jockey should clear the part of the chain that passes around the opper jockey, by between 5 and 12mm (max). If it's any shorter than this, at the other end of the range, you won't have enough chain to use big-big. Again, it's worth referring to the Campagnolo web site and the technical manual there for this: http://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_259_Tech...
Be wary though as the last mech to change the chaiin may not have set chain length this way - there are other ways to do it and the widely-used "Shimano method" will give you a chain length dependant on the size of the biggest sprocket on the cassette and so if you have, say, a 12-25 fitted mow and chain length has been set that way - you won't have enough chain.
Whether you need a new chain or not will be partly decided by conducting this test with the 12-30 cassette in place (or any other cassette starting on a 12, of course) - you can't really add links into a chain in general, although the joining kit for the Campag 10s (Campag part # CN-RE400) chains do allow you to add 1 full link in if that's all you need.
Why Medium and Long cage RDs? The range of chainring and sprocket sizes combined defines how much chain the RD needs to "wrap" so in cases of triple chainset use, a Medium or a Long cage may be needed to wrap enough chain to cope with, say, 34, 39, 52T chainrings at the front and 12-30, say, at the rear.
Bianchi double chainset system bikes will be fitted with a short cage because that is all that is needed.
HTH
Graeme
Campagnolo Mian Service Centre UK
Edited by gfkvelo on Monday 12th January 10:52
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