Carbon frame advice after worlds stupidest accident
Discussion
Hi all, as the title said, I'm after some advice after I crashed my CX bike and am now a bit worried about the frame. I've recently bought a Norco Threshold Carbon CX and have been very pleased with it. I did a coast to coast on it the weekend before last and it was epic. When we finished, I packed it in the van and met it the following day at work. Bike arrived spic and span, loaded it on the roof bars of the car and went back to work. I was parked in an underground car park.
Go to leave that evening, drive the car to the exit where there is a roller door, drive through, but didn't leave enough time for the shutter to raise. Doh!
Cue horrible noise, moment of sick realisation, and get out to survey the damage.
Bike is still on the roof rack but upside down on the deck with the rack on top. Superficial damage to the car, just 2 plasticy trace marks on the paint and rear screen.
Bike has a bent left shifter, snapped brake cover and that appears to be it.
Got the rack and bike back on without too many problems, then took it to Evans, where I bought it.
Told the first guy I spoke to and he said it's a total write off due to not being able to tell without X-ray what condition it's in and it's a six hundred pound test just for the forks. 2 other guys there looked at it and said it looks fine, it'll probably be ok.
That night took it for a fast test ride through the local mtb park, through forest, cobbles, river bank, then 2 very steep ascents on road. Felt fine.
Today I rode it, seemed ok but it seemed to make a lot of creaking noises. Is the creaking noises common for a carbon frame? I don't want to be riding along and there's a sudden catastrophic fork or seat stay failure leaving me with a face full of Tarmac.
I know I'll get endless grief for this confession and it was that stupid I deserve it! However after the mirth, any advice would be gratefully received!
Go to leave that evening, drive the car to the exit where there is a roller door, drive through, but didn't leave enough time for the shutter to raise. Doh!
Cue horrible noise, moment of sick realisation, and get out to survey the damage.
Bike is still on the roof rack but upside down on the deck with the rack on top. Superficial damage to the car, just 2 plasticy trace marks on the paint and rear screen.
Bike has a bent left shifter, snapped brake cover and that appears to be it.
Got the rack and bike back on without too many problems, then took it to Evans, where I bought it.
Told the first guy I spoke to and he said it's a total write off due to not being able to tell without X-ray what condition it's in and it's a six hundred pound test just for the forks. 2 other guys there looked at it and said it looks fine, it'll probably be ok.
That night took it for a fast test ride through the local mtb park, through forest, cobbles, river bank, then 2 very steep ascents on road. Felt fine.
Today I rode it, seemed ok but it seemed to make a lot of creaking noises. Is the creaking noises common for a carbon frame? I don't want to be riding along and there's a sudden catastrophic fork or seat stay failure leaving me with a face full of Tarmac.
I know I'll get endless grief for this confession and it was that stupid I deserve it! However after the mirth, any advice would be gratefully received!
These people will inspect with an endoscope and other gizmos for £80 http://www.carbonbikerepair.co.uk/
There are no doubt others who offer a similar service.
Whether that buys an absolute certainty of safety or just more peace of mind I couldn't say.
There are no doubt others who offer a similar service.
Whether that buys an absolute certainty of safety or just more peace of mind I couldn't say.
Creak will be from something like the seat, it wont be from the frame.
I appreciate you want advice on potential damage and x-ray is the only feasible solution. However, having bought this crashed Giant, which incidentally, numerous trustworthy people have said is repairable albeit a very difficult job with no guarantee of the repairs holding under stress, I'm of the opinion that we worry far too much about damage to carbon frames. They are seriously tough, all this talk of unseen damage to the inside of the tube after slight knocks is somewhat disingenuous. For most frames, the fibres are quite long, from head tube to seat post and on some high end frames, the fibres are a continuous strand from headtube to the bottom of the seat stays and they will take a heavy impact before splitting. Work on the principle that the longer the strand the higher the breaking point. Remember frames are made woven not straight and crossply (for want of a better phrase!) so its not like a glass tube which will just smash if you hit it, its thousands of carbon strands, placed one upon another like patchwork and resin bonded together. Having looked at this Giant frame closely, you can see where the weave overlaps.
As I said, repairable.
I appreciate you want advice on potential damage and x-ray is the only feasible solution. However, having bought this crashed Giant, which incidentally, numerous trustworthy people have said is repairable albeit a very difficult job with no guarantee of the repairs holding under stress, I'm of the opinion that we worry far too much about damage to carbon frames. They are seriously tough, all this talk of unseen damage to the inside of the tube after slight knocks is somewhat disingenuous. For most frames, the fibres are quite long, from head tube to seat post and on some high end frames, the fibres are a continuous strand from headtube to the bottom of the seat stays and they will take a heavy impact before splitting. Work on the principle that the longer the strand the higher the breaking point. Remember frames are made woven not straight and crossply (for want of a better phrase!) so its not like a glass tube which will just smash if you hit it, its thousands of carbon strands, placed one upon another like patchwork and resin bonded together. Having looked at this Giant frame closely, you can see where the weave overlaps.
As I said, repairable.
Thanks for the replies. The creak seemed to be coming from around the crankhousing, and increased on the ride home when I came out of the saddle to put the power down.
Gave it a good wash last night and checked it over. Noticed 2 worrying things, a minute crack around the rear hub, and the rear wheel is spinning out of true.
Picture of crack:
Gave it a good wash last night and checked it over. Noticed 2 worrying things, a minute crack around the rear hub, and the rear wheel is spinning out of true.
Picture of crack:
That's a crack in the gel coat around where the aluminium insert is bonded to the frame, surely?
A creaky bottom bracket is usually solved by taking the cranks and BB out, cleaning, greasing and replacing. They can get moisture and dirt in them which makes them creak a bit after a while.
A creaky bottom bracket is usually solved by taking the cranks and BB out, cleaning, greasing and replacing. They can get moisture and dirt in them which makes them creak a bit after a while.
A friend of mine was killed when his carbon forks failed due to a manufacturing fault within one of the carbon legs. there was no external signs of stress or impending doom, and this was one of the biggest manufacturers, so you have to take carbon damage seriously. Canyon offer a CT scanning service for frames, and not just their frames.
Mt s-works tarmac SL frame also failed around the BB/downtube interface due to fatigue, Most carbon frames have a life of approximately 5 years and then they are pretty much scrap, even less if it is one of the really light race bikes. I doubt that many of the pro peloton will be riding the same frame at the end of the season that they started on, and that's without any crashes
Mt s-works tarmac SL frame also failed around the BB/downtube interface due to fatigue, Most carbon frames have a life of approximately 5 years and then they are pretty much scrap, even less if it is one of the really light race bikes. I doubt that many of the pro peloton will be riding the same frame at the end of the season that they started on, and that's without any crashes
Tiddy1 said:
...Most carbon frames have a life of approximately 5 years and then they are pretty much scrap, even less if it is one of the really light race bikes. I doubt that many of the pro peloton will be riding the same frame at the end of the season that they started on, and that's without any crashes
Absolute nonsense.OK, pro bikes may have a shorter lifespan due to the hammering they get, but your general off the peg carbon bike frame only lasting 5 years? Rubbish.
EDIT - OP, that definitely looks more like paint damage
Edited by option click on Thursday 5th May 16:57
Tiddy1 said:
Most carbon frames have a life of approximately 5 years and then they are pretty much scrap, even less if it is one of the really light race bikes. I doubt that many of the pro peloton will be riding the same frame at the end of the season that they started on, and that's without any crashes
Is that what you tell your wife every 5 years in order to get a new frame, old chap? Good lord. Very respectfully, that's misinformation.Have a read of this - some interesting views from qualified guys who've been working with carbon a pretty long while.
http://cyclingtips.com/2015/08/what-is-the-lifespa...
Tiddy1 said:
Most carbon frames have a life of approximately 5 years and then they are pretty much scrap, even less if it is one of the really light race bikes. I doubt that many of the pro peloton will be riding the same frame at the end of the season that they started on, and that's without any crashes
Oh dear. My carbon bike (Giant CFR1) turns 21 this year. Perhaps I'm on borrowed time...Its alright I know little about carbon as I spend most of my work time looking at broken carbon parts for a major aerospace manufacture and designing replacements. we usually CT scan the parts and its amazing what you can see when you CT scan a bike frame.
I can only speak from personal experience of carbon bike frame but I have had 2 fail, s-works tarmac SL and Trek, and been asked to look at several other failed MTB frames, and I could not find any evidence of crash damage one any of them so they were either poor design or manufacturing defects
I can only speak from personal experience of carbon bike frame but I have had 2 fail, s-works tarmac SL and Trek, and been asked to look at several other failed MTB frames, and I could not find any evidence of crash damage one any of them so they were either poor design or manufacturing defects
I've seen some bills bulls
tters on PH over the years, but tidy really is raising the bar here.
In Tiddyland, someone died from a manufacturing fault on a front fork from one of the world's biggest cycling brands, but it wasn't reported anywhere in the media, no recall was done, and no-one sued anyone. Meanwhile, everyone riding a carbon bike, or a carbon forked bike (popular from what, 2004 on?) is risking death every day by riding a bike that is pretty much scrap. That's worrying. Literally millions of people riding every day, waiting for the inevitable.
What is positively terrifying is these things he's seen in his cat scan machine (which British Aerospace presumably lets him mess about with scanning his mates bicycles during his lunch break). I'm guessing that after a few seasons of mamil use, anything could be in there - stray cats, lost pieces of the Turin shroud, or even the second gunman from the grassy knoll. If only people would bring their 90's F1 cars, or even my 20 year old squash raquet to his scanner, they'd see that people using out of date carbon fibre are literally dicing with death on a daily basis.
Op, if anything at the back of your bike breaks, it'll not kill you. Check the fork / steerer, and if they're ok then don't worry. Carbon can take a hel of a battering - look at Pastor Maldonado's lotus, it's almost indestructible!
Tl;dr? You're chatting ste sir.
tters on PH over the years, but tidy really is raising the bar here.In Tiddyland, someone died from a manufacturing fault on a front fork from one of the world's biggest cycling brands, but it wasn't reported anywhere in the media, no recall was done, and no-one sued anyone. Meanwhile, everyone riding a carbon bike, or a carbon forked bike (popular from what, 2004 on?) is risking death every day by riding a bike that is pretty much scrap. That's worrying. Literally millions of people riding every day, waiting for the inevitable.
What is positively terrifying is these things he's seen in his cat scan machine (which British Aerospace presumably lets him mess about with scanning his mates bicycles during his lunch break). I'm guessing that after a few seasons of mamil use, anything could be in there - stray cats, lost pieces of the Turin shroud, or even the second gunman from the grassy knoll. If only people would bring their 90's F1 cars, or even my 20 year old squash raquet to his scanner, they'd see that people using out of date carbon fibre are literally dicing with death on a daily basis.
Op, if anything at the back of your bike breaks, it'll not kill you. Check the fork / steerer, and if they're ok then don't worry. Carbon can take a hel of a battering - look at Pastor Maldonado's lotus, it's almost indestructible!
Tl;dr? You're chatting s
te sir.
Some grump, I do take issue with you trashing peoples opinions in such a vitriolic way. I have 25 years of aerospace experience have been involved with carbon fibre development for most of that time, and for the record it is not at BAE
The company agreed to let the bike frame and fork be x-rayed and cat scanned to gather evidence for the case against the manufacture, which is currently on going, there was also a detailed report generated by a leading university. The problem is how do you prove that the fault was due to manufacture and not due to crash damage
I agree that carbon bike design has improved over the years and yes I agree that most bike frames will survive much longer than 5 years, I am happily riding on older carbon forks, but I know its history. However if you don't know its history you have to be very careful. Would you buy a 5 year old second hand carbon bike off e-bay? Crash damage is very hard to spot, look at the checks that are done on 787s every year or two to look for internal carbon delamination and crack initiation. how many of your average cyclist has access to that sort scanning equipment. For exactly this reason Canyon offer a CT scanning service for carbon frames to check for internal damage. and also why manufacturers will only guarantee there bikes/ frames for 5ish years (they would be stupid to offer more because as stated above it is almost impossible to tell the history of a frame). Specialized just told me my S-works tarmac SL frame was too old when the seat tube cracked away from the BB. (and no I did not suffer any injury from the frame failure).
You don't have to agree with my opinions but please do not trash my engineering integrity based on your knowledge of carbon that appears to gained from watching F1 and owning a bike that hasn't failed.
The company agreed to let the bike frame and fork be x-rayed and cat scanned to gather evidence for the case against the manufacture, which is currently on going, there was also a detailed report generated by a leading university. The problem is how do you prove that the fault was due to manufacture and not due to crash damage
I agree that carbon bike design has improved over the years and yes I agree that most bike frames will survive much longer than 5 years, I am happily riding on older carbon forks, but I know its history. However if you don't know its history you have to be very careful. Would you buy a 5 year old second hand carbon bike off e-bay? Crash damage is very hard to spot, look at the checks that are done on 787s every year or two to look for internal carbon delamination and crack initiation. how many of your average cyclist has access to that sort scanning equipment. For exactly this reason Canyon offer a CT scanning service for carbon frames to check for internal damage. and also why manufacturers will only guarantee there bikes/ frames for 5ish years (they would be stupid to offer more because as stated above it is almost impossible to tell the history of a frame). Specialized just told me my S-works tarmac SL frame was too old when the seat tube cracked away from the BB. (and no I did not suffer any injury from the frame failure).
You don't have to agree with my opinions but please do not trash my engineering integrity based on your knowledge of carbon that appears to gained from watching F1 and owning a bike that hasn't failed.
Tiddy1 said:
Some grump, I do take issue with you trashing peoples opinions in such a vitriolic way. I have 25 years of aerospace experience have been involved with carbon fibre development for most of that time, and for the record it is not at BAE
The company agreed to let the bike frame and fork be x-rayed and cat scanned to gather evidence for the case against the manufacture, which is currently on going, there was also a detailed report generated by a leading university. The problem is how do you prove that the fault was due to manufacture and not due to crash damage
I agree that carbon bike design has improved over the years and yes I agree that most bike frames will survive much longer than 5 years, I am happily riding on older carbon forks, but I know its history. However if you don't know its history you have to be very careful. Would you buy a 5 year old second hand carbon bike off e-bay? Crash damage is very hard to spot, look at the checks that are done on 787s every year or two to look for internal carbon delamination and crack initiation. how many of your average cyclist has access to that sort scanning equipment. For exactly this reason Canyon offer a CT scanning service for carbon frames to check for internal damage. and also why manufacturers will only guarantee there bikes/ frames for 5ish years (they would be stupid to offer more because as stated above it is almost impossible to tell the history of a frame). Specialized just told me my S-works tarmac SL frame was too old when the seat tube cracked away from the BB. (and no I did not suffer any injury from the frame failure).
You don't have to agree with my opinions but please do not trash my engineering integrity based on your knowledge of carbon that appears to gained from watching F1 and owning a bike that hasn't failed.
Thing is you could still be talking sThe company agreed to let the bike frame and fork be x-rayed and cat scanned to gather evidence for the case against the manufacture, which is currently on going, there was also a detailed report generated by a leading university. The problem is how do you prove that the fault was due to manufacture and not due to crash damage
I agree that carbon bike design has improved over the years and yes I agree that most bike frames will survive much longer than 5 years, I am happily riding on older carbon forks, but I know its history. However if you don't know its history you have to be very careful. Would you buy a 5 year old second hand carbon bike off e-bay? Crash damage is very hard to spot, look at the checks that are done on 787s every year or two to look for internal carbon delamination and crack initiation. how many of your average cyclist has access to that sort scanning equipment. For exactly this reason Canyon offer a CT scanning service for carbon frames to check for internal damage. and also why manufacturers will only guarantee there bikes/ frames for 5ish years (they would be stupid to offer more because as stated above it is almost impossible to tell the history of a frame). Specialized just told me my S-works tarmac SL frame was too old when the seat tube cracked away from the BB. (and no I did not suffer any injury from the frame failure).
You don't have to agree with my opinions but please do not trash my engineering integrity based on your knowledge of carbon that appears to gained from watching F1 and owning a bike that hasn't failed.
t this being an anonymous forum. Post up your linked in profile that shows your work history / cv bit of proof you really have any experience and maybe people will take you seriously as it is you have not mentioned who you work for except it isn't BAE, so you mention a 787 so are we supposed to assume you are a Boeing engineer? It really isn't much good giving statements that contradict general consensus without good backing.Tiddy1 said:
Most carbon frames have a life of approximately 5 years and then they are pretty much scrap, even less if it is one of the really light race bikes.
Tiddy1 then said:
I agree that carbon bike design has improved over the years and yes I agree that most bike frames will survive much longer than 5 years
Not questioning your expertise, but which one is it?Herman Toothrot said:
Thing is you could still be talking st this being an anonymous forum. Post up your linked in profile that shows your work history / cv bit of proof you really have any experience and maybe people will take you seriously as it is you have not mentioned who you work for except it isn't BAE, so you mention a 787 so are we supposed to assume you are a Boeing engineer? It really isn't much good giving statements that contradict general consensus without good backing.
Hes not hard to find on linkedin.t this being an anonymous forum. Post up your linked in profile that shows your work history / cv bit of proof you really have any experience and maybe people will take you seriously as it is you have not mentioned who you work for except it isn't BAE, so you mention a 787 so are we supposed to assume you are a Boeing engineer? It really isn't much good giving statements that contradict general consensus without good backing.Gassing Station | Pedal Powered | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff