Downhill help - do I need a 'bigger' mtb?
Discussion
I've been back into mountain biking for about 18 months now and I'm totally hooked. Aside from the health benefits of the excercise and the adrenaline rush from some of the more challenging stuff, there's the unexpected social benefits; the I've met a great bunch of people locally.
I'm lucky enough to live on Cannock Chase which means that I get to ride at least once a week; a group of us ride every Wednesday, rain, snow, sun - whatever - on singlespeeds and I also have a full bouncer to play on the trails at the weekend, sometimes on the Welsh trail centres.
More recently, I've started to play with the big travel boys on the downhill routes and this is where my dilemma comes - my trusted and very much loved '09 Stumpjumper can cope with everything at my local DH trails at Stile Cop, but even on some of the 'smaller' trails, I'm constantly bottoming the rear shock (it is set right) and feel as though the bike's taking a bit of a pounding.
Stuff like this: YouTube
The question is this; do I 'upgrade' the Stumpjumper and replace it with something that's a bit more jack of all trades, or do I get a third bike, just for the downhill stuff?
I have to stress that I'll only downhill a few times a month and do not intend to start racing downhill. I've also got a fairly strict criteria if I opt to replace the Stumpy; it will have to be a no-holds barred, no expense spared upgrade. So far, I'm very tempted by either the Santa Cruz Nomad or a Nicola Helius AM for the upgrade option, both of which are 160mm bikes.
If it's a 'third' bike, just for downhill, maybe an eBay special frame?
Help! Sorry of another 'what bike' thread, but at least I'm not stipulating a budget of £3.50. All ideas gratefully received.
I'm lucky enough to live on Cannock Chase which means that I get to ride at least once a week; a group of us ride every Wednesday, rain, snow, sun - whatever - on singlespeeds and I also have a full bouncer to play on the trails at the weekend, sometimes on the Welsh trail centres.
More recently, I've started to play with the big travel boys on the downhill routes and this is where my dilemma comes - my trusted and very much loved '09 Stumpjumper can cope with everything at my local DH trails at Stile Cop, but even on some of the 'smaller' trails, I'm constantly bottoming the rear shock (it is set right) and feel as though the bike's taking a bit of a pounding.
Stuff like this: YouTube
The question is this; do I 'upgrade' the Stumpjumper and replace it with something that's a bit more jack of all trades, or do I get a third bike, just for the downhill stuff?
I have to stress that I'll only downhill a few times a month and do not intend to start racing downhill. I've also got a fairly strict criteria if I opt to replace the Stumpy; it will have to be a no-holds barred, no expense spared upgrade. So far, I'm very tempted by either the Santa Cruz Nomad or a Nicola Helius AM for the upgrade option, both of which are 160mm bikes.
If it's a 'third' bike, just for downhill, maybe an eBay special frame?
Help! Sorry of another 'what bike' thread, but at least I'm not stipulating a budget of £3.50. All ideas gratefully received.
Helius AM - very nice, I have the FR myself and Nicolai build quality is second to none. The AM with coil shocks would be a great upgrade and would handle everything you can throw at it. It still won't be as good as a full on DH bike but it's a great compromise for dealing with a bit of everything. I run my FR with both coil/coil and air/air set ups depending on where I'm riding and coil wins every time for soaking up bumps and drops and is definitely more reliable. It does add a couple of pounds to the overall weight of the bike though. If you want any more info on long term Nicolai ownership just let me know (there's now 4 in our group - 2 x FR, 1 x AM and a Nucleon TFR)plus my local dealer mate is a Nicolai stockist.
Sounds like you could do with something more DH-orientated - if you're hammering DH tracks "properly" you'll soon notice the effects on your more XC-orientated full-susser.
If it was me, and I intended only using it a couple of times a month, I'd be looking to build up and a third bike cheaply. Something like a Giant Glory (or even a Reign X) or SC Bullit. DH bikes end up covered in scratches and scrapes anyway, so I'd be gutted spending a fortune on one only to have it get wrecked! Particularly if you start doing uplift days...
I'm sort of considering the same thing at the moment. The majority of my riding is just local stuff using a 29er hardtail but I also have a Giant Reign (6" travel, air shock) with big forks, which I'm using for more DH-orientated stuff. It's "OK" but a lot of the time I yearn for something more suited to DH.
If it was me, and I intended only using it a couple of times a month, I'd be looking to build up and a third bike cheaply. Something like a Giant Glory (or even a Reign X) or SC Bullit. DH bikes end up covered in scratches and scrapes anyway, so I'd be gutted spending a fortune on one only to have it get wrecked! Particularly if you start doing uplift days...
I'm sort of considering the same thing at the moment. The majority of my riding is just local stuff using a 29er hardtail but I also have a Giant Reign (6" travel, air shock) with big forks, which I'm using for more DH-orientated stuff. It's "OK" but a lot of the time I yearn for something more suited to DH.
Thanks for the superb feedback guys. Just been distracted by some work (can you beleive they make me do that, in my office, during working hours, on a weekday?) so just getting back to this. 
Rolls - are the Nomads a possible XC/DH compromise then?
Pablo16v said:
Helius AM - very nice, I have the FR myself and Nicolai build quality is second to none. The AM with coil shocks would be a great upgrade and would handle everything you can throw at it. It still won't be as good as a full on DH bike but it's a great compromise for dealing with a bit of everything. I run my FR with both coil/coil and air/air set ups depending on where I'm riding and coil wins every time for soaking up bumps and drops and is definitely more reliable. It does add a couple of pounds to the overall weight of the bike though.
Thanks for that - it was another point I was pondering and did consider the option of two shocks, but thought it a bit extravagant. Thank you for pushing the envelope on my behlaf.! Pablo16v said:
If you want any more info on long term Nicolai ownership just let me know (there's now 4 in our group - 2 x FR, 1 x AM and a Nucleon TFR)plus my local dealer mate is a Nicolai stockist.
Know they're super-duty. There's a guy who I've seen at my LBS a few times and he's 20 stone but rides well. You name it, he's bust it, but he's got two Nicolai; a hardtail with Rohloff hub and a full-sus Helius and neither shows any sign of stress. I'm only about 12-13 stone, so I'm not going to bother the bike!Rolls - are the Nomads a possible XC/DH compromise then?
a11y_m said:
Sounds like you could do with something more DH-orientated - if you're hammering DH tracks "properly" you'll soon notice the effects on your more XC-orientated full-susser.
Not sure I'm that good, or ever will be.a11y_m said:
I'm sort of considering the same thing at the moment. The majority of my riding is just local stuff using a 29er hardtail but I also have a Giant Reign (6" travel, air shock) with big forks, which I'm using for more DH-orientated stuff. It's "OK" but a lot of the time I yearn for something more suited to DH.
I suppose the other thing is the benefit of 'pure' DH front end geometry. I've has a few offs and close shaves where I reckon a slacker head angle would have shrugged off the issue. Quite a few guys locally seem to run the Specialneeds SX's and Big Hits - they seem a lot of bike for the dosh.A full DH bike will let you go harder and faster than you ever thought you could, but they're a bit like owning a pet Elephant, very cool, but incredibly expensive to maintain and you rarely get to use it.
If you want a tough, fast agile gravity bike you can pedal anywhere I'd recomend a 05-06 spec Spesh Enduro, it's got a bit of cult follwing so they go for more money than a lot of other bikes of the same age but they're great (yes I have one) Fox 36's, DHX Air rear (on the 2006) 203mm front brake low BB and a double / bash set-up.
If you want a tough, fast agile gravity bike you can pedal anywhere I'd recomend a 05-06 spec Spesh Enduro, it's got a bit of cult follwing so they go for more money than a lot of other bikes of the same age but they're great (yes I have one) Fox 36's, DHX Air rear (on the 2006) 203mm front brake low BB and a double / bash set-up.
I like Marz 888's, avoid the '09's - bit of an off year as they were going down the tubes at the time. New ones are meant to be amazing, 08's are stunning too. '07 are older are slimmer and slightly more basic, but they're tough as old boots and piss easy maintain.
Fox 40's run nicely, but they have stupidly short service intervals measured in hours, they're quite fragile, lowers very thin and can be puntured in falls.
New Boxxers are meant to be good, older ones were fragile too.
As for rear, whatever comes with the frame IMHO, but you can't go wrong with a Fox DHX
Fox 40's run nicely, but they have stupidly short service intervals measured in hours, they're quite fragile, lowers very thin and can be puntured in falls.
New Boxxers are meant to be good, older ones were fragile too.
As for rear, whatever comes with the frame IMHO, but you can't go wrong with a Fox DHX
Digga said:
Rolls - are the Nomads a possible XC/DH compromise then?
Wouldn't say they'll compare to a full on DH bike...But, IMO they would make a fantastic all moutnain bike - 160mm fork would be perfect for 99% of the stuff you're likley to be riding IMO.
Go for too much travel, and you spoil the fun (again, IMO - when I go back to verbier, I will be buying a Nomad for certain - had a 575 with R36 vans on the front before...)
Tbh you'd be better just keeping your Spesh as is and then putting some money aside for a proper DH bike, buy a cheap used one if you aren't getting into it as your main riding style.
Check out the classifieds of southerndownhill.com for some great bargains, always stuff going cheap.
Having a hybrid is ok but instead of feeling like it can do everything, I always think of it as not being as good at either. Much better to just have a different rig for each style you ride.
Check out the classifieds of southerndownhill.com for some great bargains, always stuff going cheap.
Having a hybrid is ok but instead of feeling like it can do everything, I always think of it as not being as good at either. Much better to just have a different rig for each style you ride.
Edited by ezi on Friday 28th May 12:46
ezi said:
Having a hybrid is ok but instead of feeling like it can do everything, I always think of it as not being as good at either. Much better to just have a different rig for each style you ride.
That was my other concern. For any XC stuff, red or black runs, the Stumpy is pretty faultless - I love the way the FSR rear works - and it climbs exceedingly well, which is, after all, half the battle on XC!Not sure that something with real DH chuckability is ever going to be good on tight XC singletrack, and even less so on climbs.
All that said, I'm not looking to play at being Steve peat every weekend - unlike some of the very impressive riders on here - I just want a tad more in reserve for when I do go DH.
mk1fan said:
Orange Patriot XCEL would suit you.
Get an air shock and forks for XC/trail duties.
Swap the air for coils for AM/FR/DH.
Geometry adjustable dependant on what you're wanting to do.
AHEMGet an air shock and forks for XC/trail duties.
Swap the air for coils for AM/FR/DH.
Geometry adjustable dependant on what you're wanting to do.
What you should look at is an Orange Patriot XCEL.
5-inch travel with air suspension.
6-inch rear travel and 7-inches up front with coil suspension.
Geometry adjusts via the shock mount dependant on whether you have XC or DH set-up.
Really works well in nboth guises. You've got the HT for head down arse up XC'ing
Digga said:
ezi said:
Having a hybrid is ok but instead of feeling like it can do everything, I always think of it as not being as good at either. Much better to just have a different rig for each style you ride.
That was my other concern. For any XC stuff, red or black runs, the Stumpy is pretty faultless - I love the way the FSR rear works - and it climbs exceedingly well, which is, after all, half the battle on XC!Not sure that something with real DH chuckability is ever going to be good on tight XC singletrack, and even less so on climbs.
All that said, I'm not looking to play at being Steve peat every weekend - unlike some of the very impressive riders on here - I just want a tad more in reserve for when I do go DH.
An orange 160 AM would fit the bill.
http://www.orangebikes.co.uk/bikes/2010/alpine-160...
http://www.orangebikes.co.uk/bikes/2010/alpine-160...
Edited by Gooby on Saturday 29th May 07:36
mk1fan said:
mk1fan said:
Orange Patriot XCEL would suit you.
Get an air shock and forks for XC/trail duties.
Swap the air for coils for AM/FR/DH.
Geometry adjustable dependant on what you're wanting to do.
AHEMGet an air shock and forks for XC/trail duties.
Swap the air for coils for AM/FR/DH.
Geometry adjustable dependant on what you're wanting to do.
What you should look at is an Orange Patriot XCEL.
5-inch travel with air suspension.
6-inch rear travel and 7-inches up front with coil suspension.
Geometry adjusts via the shock mount dependant on whether you have XC or DH set-up.
Really works well in nboth guises. You've got the HT for head down arse up XC'ing
Gooby said:
An orange 160 AM would fit the bill.
http://www.orangebikes.co.uk/bikes/2010/alpine-160...
Did look at this - presumably it's the successor to the Patriot? Was just a bit woried though because I did read a review (MBR IIRC) which said the single pivot rear end seems to scissor in/out of faster corners.http://www.orangebikes.co.uk/bikes/2010/alpine-160...
Edited by Gooby on Saturday 29th May 07:36
How about the Marin Attack Trail?
http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/marin-attack-trail-...
I've just bought one as I was getting my Specialized Epic out of it's depth at the trail centres. They are absolutley fantastic bikes! The Maxle axles on both ends make it very stif and you can bomb through nasty stuff almost like your on a full DH rig. However with these you can pedal back up as well too!
I know they don't have the badge prestige of Santa Cruz or Orange but get yourself a test ride! The suspension is designed by Whyte and it's regarded as being one of the best designs about at the mo
http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/marin-attack-trail-...
I've just bought one as I was getting my Specialized Epic out of it's depth at the trail centres. They are absolutley fantastic bikes! The Maxle axles on both ends make it very stif and you can bomb through nasty stuff almost like your on a full DH rig. However with these you can pedal back up as well too!
I know they don't have the badge prestige of Santa Cruz or Orange but get yourself a test ride! The suspension is designed by Whyte and it's regarded as being one of the best designs about at the mo
Yes you would need to source a s/hand item but 2008/09 are out there. Very good frames that just get on with the job. The sliding shock yoke adjusts the geo just right.
I'd stop worrying about deficiencies of different types of suspension and concentrate on your skills.
The Alpine 160 isn't as versatile as the Patriot XCEL.
What ever you buy don't set it up like an XC bike. A friend has recently (after spending 4-months reading up on different types of suspension and discounting bikes because they didn't compensate enough) bought a capable 6-inch AM/FR bike to 'help' them move their riding on but has it set up like an XC bike. Still funny watching them walk down very simple techy sections I've just steamed through on my 4-inch HT XC bike - albeit Cove's take on an XC bike.
I'd stop worrying about deficiencies of different types of suspension and concentrate on your skills.
The Alpine 160 isn't as versatile as the Patriot XCEL.
What ever you buy don't set it up like an XC bike. A friend has recently (after spending 4-months reading up on different types of suspension and discounting bikes because they didn't compensate enough) bought a capable 6-inch AM/FR bike to 'help' them move their riding on but has it set up like an XC bike. Still funny watching them walk down very simple techy sections I've just steamed through on my 4-inch HT XC bike - albeit Cove's take on an XC bike.
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