Is it even worth it?
Discussion
Due to working late and un-mended puncture I didn't cycle in at all last week. So today, despite the murky horrible damp I forced myself to ride in. About half a mile into the ride I was accelerating away after into a side street when I became aware of a car behind me. There were parked cars on both sides, but (somewhat stupidly, I know) I was riding well to the left - it wasn't as if I was overtly blocking the road, there just wasn't enough space to get past until the parked cars ended in 50 yards time. Nonetheless a t
t in a Vectra decided to beep the horn, dip the clutch and wheelspin past me, missing the tip of my handlebars by millimetres. He didn't change gear during the process he just did it because, well, I don't know - tiny gentleman's department maybe? Coincidentally, this was about half eight just down the road from one of the local schools.
Thankful to be in one piece I carried on until the next junction, which was backed up for some distance with parked cars on the opposite side and oncoming traffic overtaking 'said cars. This is a daily occurrence and there's plenty of space for me to filter past on the right hand side of the queue. As I approached the same bloke pulled violently across to the right almost taking out an oncoming car. He was now jammed so close to the car infront of him that fortunately he couldn't move any further out when I got there. In the interests of self preservation I'm trying my best not to rise to such behaviour any more and I'm proud to say I didn't; I did, however, glance inside the car and the gentleman sat in the driver's seat looked exactly how I'd imagined him. Short, quite fat, middle aged and impossibly oily. In fact he looked rather like a compressed version of Mr Vandemar from Neverwhere:
Now I know there are equally moronic individuals on two wheels, and I know he's not indicative of drivers in general (at least I hope not, very much counting myself as one of that group), but there do seem to be a lot of, well, tts around in London. Literally five minutes later a builder's van insisted on squeezing past the outside of me going up a hill 50 yards before a T-junction where I was either going to filter past him or go the opposite way. And practically however well you ride these people who simply don't care. The fact you're relatively small and squashy makes it infinitely preferable for them to risk collecting a human being on a bike than, say, a concrete bollard it seems.
Anyway, the root of the rant is this: In only a week I'd forgotten how bloody dangerous it is out there. I've been clipped by wing mirrors twice now (and I hasten to add that's them coming past me, not vice versa) and I'm genuinely worried the next one is going to take me out. For me the appeal of cycling on the road is lessened by the fact that even once you've done everything you can to reduce the risks yourself some idiot, through negligence or sheer wilful aggression, can still kill or injure you. Even on the gnarliest downhill course it's just your own skill against the elements, but running the gauntlet with London traffic is a bit like playing Russian roulette. It's not a matter of skill; it's a matter of time.
t in a Vectra decided to beep the horn, dip the clutch and wheelspin past me, missing the tip of my handlebars by millimetres. He didn't change gear during the process he just did it because, well, I don't know - tiny gentleman's department maybe? Coincidentally, this was about half eight just down the road from one of the local schools.Thankful to be in one piece I carried on until the next junction, which was backed up for some distance with parked cars on the opposite side and oncoming traffic overtaking 'said cars. This is a daily occurrence and there's plenty of space for me to filter past on the right hand side of the queue. As I approached the same bloke pulled violently across to the right almost taking out an oncoming car. He was now jammed so close to the car infront of him that fortunately he couldn't move any further out when I got there. In the interests of self preservation I'm trying my best not to rise to such behaviour any more and I'm proud to say I didn't; I did, however, glance inside the car and the gentleman sat in the driver's seat looked exactly how I'd imagined him. Short, quite fat, middle aged and impossibly oily. In fact he looked rather like a compressed version of Mr Vandemar from Neverwhere:
Now I know there are equally moronic individuals on two wheels, and I know he's not indicative of drivers in general (at least I hope not, very much counting myself as one of that group), but there do seem to be a lot of, well, t
ts around in London. Literally five minutes later a builder's van insisted on squeezing past the outside of me going up a hill 50 yards before a T-junction where I was either going to filter past him or go the opposite way. And practically however well you ride these people who simply don't care. The fact you're relatively small and squashy makes it infinitely preferable for them to risk collecting a human being on a bike than, say, a concrete bollard it seems.Anyway, the root of the rant is this: In only a week I'd forgotten how bloody dangerous it is out there. I've been clipped by wing mirrors twice now (and I hasten to add that's them coming past me, not vice versa) and I'm genuinely worried the next one is going to take me out. For me the appeal of cycling on the road is lessened by the fact that even once you've done everything you can to reduce the risks yourself some idiot, through negligence or sheer wilful aggression, can still kill or injure you. Even on the gnarliest downhill course it's just your own skill against the elements, but running the gauntlet with London traffic is a bit like playing Russian roulette. It's not a matter of skill; it's a matter of time.
It is horrendous out there and I just don't understand the mentality of these scumbags. Do they fail to understand that if they hit you, there is every possibility they could kill you - and then they could go to jail? For what..? 15 seconds of stupid impatience?
I'm fortunate (?) to not have to commute in London and commute instead about 5 or so miles into (and back out of) the outskirts of Coventry.. never really had any horror stories as such but have suffered the usual indignity of brave souls hurling abuse at you before they roar off down the road for absolutely f@ck all reason. I don't even try and "own the road" as some cyclists do and really do cling far to the left, soaking up all the drain holes and potholes only swerving to avoid proper craters.
I guess people just lack compassion or perspective, or they're just arrogant turds - a combination of all of them I guess.
I'm a strong believer in karma though - I like to think these people will get their come-uppances eventually.
I'm fortunate (?) to not have to commute in London and commute instead about 5 or so miles into (and back out of) the outskirts of Coventry.. never really had any horror stories as such but have suffered the usual indignity of brave souls hurling abuse at you before they roar off down the road for absolutely f@ck all reason. I don't even try and "own the road" as some cyclists do and really do cling far to the left, soaking up all the drain holes and potholes only swerving to avoid proper craters.
I guess people just lack compassion or perspective, or they're just arrogant turds - a combination of all of them I guess.
I'm a strong believer in karma though - I like to think these people will get their come-uppances eventually.
Chicane-UK said:
I'm a strong believer in karma though - I like to think these people will get their come-uppances eventually.
I used to as well. That was until a few weeks ago when I stopped to try and catch a stray dog on one of the main roads round here before it could get runover. It was my good deed for the day and after a fruitless 10 minute wild goose (or even dog) chase around the local woods I came back to find some scrote was about to break into my car.I would say that's karma for you, but I fear a more accurate description would be that's London. On the whole people inside the M25 just seem a bit mal-adjusted; they're pathologically selfish and impatient. I regularly see ambulances with their blues and twos on boxed in by drivers too caught up in their own trivial affairs to make room for a paramedics on their way to save somebody's life. I've never found another culture where it's common for individuals to believe a few seconds of their commute is worth more than somebody else's life.
Sorry, getting a bit melodramatic now, but every day I just think: Why can't people just get on.
The lesson here is that when there's too little space for a car or van to pass safely, you move a little further out so that they can't get tempted to squeeze past. I generally take the view that most people aren't sufficiently psychopathic to *want* to endanger you, but they're just impatient, think there's enough space and go for it.
Creeping along down the left is just inviting drivers behind to ignore you and blast past without more than a moment's thought. Move out just a bit further, you're part of the traffic that they have to plan an overtake to get past. If there's a longer stretch where it's too tight for traffic to get past, just be considerate and pull in every so often to let traffic past.
For a lot of cyclists (and sterotypes aside, more often women than men), they get into a "I'll just stay over here, out of the way, don't mind me, I won't get in your way" attitude when actually cycling in traffic requires more assertiveness and to actually put yourself in the way to improve your safety.
Creeping along down the left is just inviting drivers behind to ignore you and blast past without more than a moment's thought. Move out just a bit further, you're part of the traffic that they have to plan an overtake to get past. If there's a longer stretch where it's too tight for traffic to get past, just be considerate and pull in every so often to let traffic past.
For a lot of cyclists (and sterotypes aside, more often women than men), they get into a "I'll just stay over here, out of the way, don't mind me, I won't get in your way" attitude when actually cycling in traffic requires more assertiveness and to actually put yourself in the way to improve your safety.
Edited by sjg on Monday 27th September 13:13
That definitely works with 'incompetent but fundamentally reasonable' drivers (of which there are plenty). However, in the first instance it wasn't so much the rather gung-ho overtake as the need to make a display out of it that perplexed me - I suspect his behaviour would have been even worse if I could have been construed as blocking the road.
It did remind me to ride further out approaching width restrictions, parked cars and so on - I do get the point - but the main thing that got me was that a minority feel the need to make an overt display of endangering cyclists. Sadly, in London, that minority is big enough to be significant when it's your neck on the line.
It did remind me to ride further out approaching width restrictions, parked cars and so on - I do get the point - but the main thing that got me was that a minority feel the need to make an overt display of endangering cyclists. Sadly, in London, that minority is big enough to be significant when it's your neck on the line.
Dare I suggest that the Vectra driver is probably a regular poster on here 
Yes. Yes i do.
On a serious note. Well done for not rising. It's not worth it. Especially with a driver like the Vectra chap. You'll never change his opinion.
It is interesting though, it's something that I think about often when I'm out cycling. That chap might have just had five bad run-ins with other cyclists that were either dangerous/agressive/pulling unlawful manouvers in the last hour and just lost the plot and you were the next cyclist that came along and he thought "right, there's another of those fkers, i'm 'avin 'im."
I'm not condoning his behaviour in the slightest, the guy is a total tt as he's using his ton of metal as a weapon against a perfectly reasonable rider.
However, it does raise the idea that other cyclist's behaviour can reflect on you, in my hypothetical example, in a negative way.
Everyone remembers the inconsiderate cyclist/car driver/iPed/HGV/Taxi/Bus but doesn't remember the other 30 examples of whatever that didn't cause any harm.
Anywho...I think I've gone off point here... blue...is the answer blue?
Yes. Yes i do.
On a serious note. Well done for not rising. It's not worth it. Especially with a driver like the Vectra chap. You'll never change his opinion.
It is interesting though, it's something that I think about often when I'm out cycling. That chap might have just had five bad run-ins with other cyclists that were either dangerous/agressive/pulling unlawful manouvers in the last hour and just lost the plot and you were the next cyclist that came along and he thought "right, there's another of those f
kers, i'm 'avin 'im."I'm not condoning his behaviour in the slightest, the guy is a total t
t as he's using his ton of metal as a weapon against a perfectly reasonable rider.However, it does raise the idea that other cyclist's behaviour can reflect on you, in my hypothetical example, in a negative way.
Everyone remembers the inconsiderate cyclist/car driver/iPed/HGV/Taxi/Bus but doesn't remember the other 30 examples of whatever that didn't cause any harm.
Anywho...I think I've gone off point here... blue...is the answer blue?
hondafanatic said:
However, it does raise the idea that other cyclist's behaviour can reflect on you, in my hypothetical example, in a negative way.
Couldn't agree more. This is exactly the reason I hate the bunch of unemployed, lentil munching, st stain, for brains thunderfks that are Critical Mass.It is all about assertive cycling - I really don't give a s
t how long I hold people up for if it keeps me safe - you being 35 seconds late is something I do not care at all about. Me keeping me (and more importantly my bike 
) out of harms way is something I care about. Unfortunately (as someone said above) it does very little if the driver behind you is a committed ahole.In the past 4 years, I have probably covered about 35,000 miles in various commuting, racing and training guises. It feels wrong to consider myself "lucky" that I have only been hit by 3 cars in that time (all 3 were "minor" - dented the side of a van, ruined a new Fiesta's bonnet and had some help unclipping from a guy in his Zafira) - if you had a car accident every 10,000 or so miles, you would be seriously thinking about your driving - it seems to be something that cyclists (I'm including myself in this) accept as a risk that comes with the territory, which is a pretty horrid state of affairs if you ask me.
Aaaaand breathe...
hondafanatic said:
It is interesting though, it's something that I think about often when I'm out cycling. That chap might have just had five bad run-ins with other cyclists that were either dangerous/agressive/pulling unlawful manouvers in the last hour and just lost the plot and you were the next cyclist that came along and he thought "right, there's another of those fkers, i'm 'avin 'im."?
Yep. That's crossed my mind before and I was actually thinking about it when I typed the last post. I'm on the outskirts, but Central London is only half an hour away and it is rather dog-eat-dog. I expect a lot of people out here also venture further in where they get irritated by red-light running, dubious filtering, riding on the pavement etc. kers, i'm 'avin 'im."?So I can understand why they get wound up by some cyclists, but why take it out on the rest of us? I'd done nothing to antagonise this bloke. Plus, it's not as if it only works one way - whether I'm on the bike or driving a car I get cut up by or stuck behind drivers regularly. Occasionally I lose my rag and rant at them, but I never take it out on other people who just happen to be using the same mode of transport.
Like you say, the tendency for most people is to remember one incident in particular. I found myself almost operating the other way - I was mildly horrified by the riding standards in Central Lonodn when I first drove around the city, but it struck me while contemplating this that on the exact same journey actually I'd seen equally bad displays of driving from cars and dismissed them as 'just the way Londond is'.
Parsnip said:
it seems to be something that cyclists (I'm including myself in this) accept as a risk that comes with the territory, which is a pretty horrid state of affairs if you ask me.
I really don't want to agree with this, but it's the unfortunate truth. My commute's only 5-6 miles each way but in the past 5 years or so I've had quite a few contact incidents. Despite that frequency I consider myself as fairly lucky. And that's a sad state of affairs to admit.Part of it is down to route choice but a lot of us don't have much choice about the route we take on the roads. I've been exploring different routes between home and work for the past 12 months and am still refining my route. It's grown from a direct 4 mile road-based route to a 5-6 mile mainly offroad (but slower) route. Worth the longer/harder option for my safety though.
a11y_m said:
Worth the longer/harder option for my safety though.
Yep. Unlike many, I do take to the cycle lanes for that reason (the ones round here are mostly up on the pavement, so don't have the issues of riding in the side of the road) and when I get round to sorting out a hardtail I could even do the first few miles through the local woods. Sometimes you just can't avoid mixing it with the other traffic though and even if you cycle on the white line (in the name of defensive riding) somebody will still get halfway through overtaking you round a blind corner or something before deciding it's a bad idea and cutting in on you. Yes, you can probably ease the situation with defensive riding and you can all but eradicate the threats posed by people pulling out on you at junctions and so on, but when White Van Man decides to overtake through you regardless there's not a lot you can do.My dismass at the way people overtake cyclists (and generally treat them on the road) doesn't stem from me being a cyclist so much as it does from me being a driver. I've driven most things (barring HGVs and buses, but they both seem to be pretty good) so the moment I hear a van's turbo whistling up behind me I usually have a fairly good idea whether I'd want to perform that manouevre. The answer quite frequently is no, but it never seems to deter the person doing it.
Edited by Chris71 on Monday 27th September 14:56
Chicane-UK said:
I'm a strong believer in karma though - I like to think these people will get their come-uppances eventually.
A woman overtook me where there clearly wasn't enough room on a narrow country lane a while ago. She beeped her horn and almost edged me into a ditch. Later where the road becomes very rough and more of a track I noticed a thick trail of oil starting after one of the biggest potholes where the road runs out and the rough bit started.
After following the trail for a mile or so, I was delighted to discover it led right to under the woman's parked car who had just missed me and her standing by it looking really pissed off. "serves you right you t
t" I cheerily shouted as I rode by. I actually had a very good ride in this morning, but something happened last night which made this thread (and the comments about drivers taking out their frustrations) spring to mind...
Using one of the local rat runs, peppered with parked cars and fast approaching a T-junction, I heard a van behind me speeding up to overtake. I could see a car in the other direction starting to pull out from behind a parked car, so I stayed out towards the middle of the lane, which I think was the right thing to do. The van driver got very close behind before deciding to abort the manouevre because of the oncoming car.
The van wasn't far behind as I turned onto the main road, but miraculously the road was virtually empty - there were no cars for hundreds of yards. There was also the full width of a (wide) road to overtake, but the van still squeezed me to kerb for no apparent reason. I'm sure he considered that 'payback' for not getting out of his way beforehand, even though there was nowhere safely for me to go.
Using one of the local rat runs, peppered with parked cars and fast approaching a T-junction, I heard a van behind me speeding up to overtake. I could see a car in the other direction starting to pull out from behind a parked car, so I stayed out towards the middle of the lane, which I think was the right thing to do. The van driver got very close behind before deciding to abort the manouevre because of the oncoming car.
The van wasn't far behind as I turned onto the main road, but miraculously the road was virtually empty - there were no cars for hundreds of yards. There was also the full width of a (wide) road to overtake, but the van still squeezed me to kerb for no apparent reason. I'm sure he considered that 'payback' for not getting out of his way beforehand, even though there was nowhere safely for me to go.
What makes it worse Chris, is there are many of that chaps type posting on this forum who consider themselves to be passionate motorists!
Nearly took a tumble myself this morning, at a point I've already written to the council about. Apparently cars are allowed to just drive into the cycle lane at speed regardless of cyclists being there already.
Nearly took a tumble myself this morning, at a point I've already written to the council about. Apparently cars are allowed to just drive into the cycle lane at speed regardless of cyclists being there already.
Chris71 said:
I actually had a very good ride in this morning, but something happened last night which made this thread (and the comments about drivers taking out their frustrations) spring to mind...
Using one of the local rat runs, peppered with parked cars and fast approaching a T-junction, I heard a van behind me speeding up to overtake. I could see a car in the other direction starting to pull out from behind a parked car, so I stayed out towards the middle of the lane, which I think was the right thing to do. The van driver got very close behind before deciding to abort the manouevre because of the oncoming car.
The van wasn't far behind as I turned onto the main road, but miraculously the road was virtually empty - there were no cars for hundreds of yards. There was also the full width of a (wide) road to overtake, but the van still squeezed me to kerb for no apparent reason. I'm sure he considered that 'payback' for not getting out of his way beforehand, even though there was nowhere safely for me to go.
Good use of the primary position.Using one of the local rat runs, peppered with parked cars and fast approaching a T-junction, I heard a van behind me speeding up to overtake. I could see a car in the other direction starting to pull out from behind a parked car, so I stayed out towards the middle of the lane, which I think was the right thing to do. The van driver got very close behind before deciding to abort the manouevre because of the oncoming car.
The van wasn't far behind as I turned onto the main road, but miraculously the road was virtually empty - there were no cars for hundreds of yards. There was also the full width of a (wide) road to overtake, but the van still squeezed me to kerb for no apparent reason. I'm sure he considered that 'payback' for not getting out of his way beforehand, even though there was nowhere safely for me to go.
If I were you...
https://secure.met.police.uk/roadsafelondon/
...every time.
walm said:
I wonder what actually happens to the information posted in the Met form?As an aside, I really want some of the t
ts who habitually jump red lights to get at least bumped into at some point. This would teach them a valuable lesson. I constantly end up doing a check behind me prior to pulling up at a pelican/zebra crossing for fear of being rear ended by someone who is clearly unable to wait for 10 seconds.
If I catch someone jumping a zebra crossing where a Parent is about to cross with a pram I will have no hesitation in flicking the riders back wheel with my front, hopefully causing them to eat the tarmac. They are absolute t
ts of the highest order. They wouldn't do it in a car (or perhaps they would), so why do it on a bike, where they are potentially likely to cause as much injury?Last week I had to stop someone with my arm held out to prevent them getting t-boned by a transit pulling across the road, which was partly obscured by a bus. Until they saw the transit, all I got was a load of s
t. Then people wonder why motorists get pissed off with cyclists?
fergus said:
As an aside, I really want some of the tts who habitually jump red lights to get at least bumped into at some point. This would teach them a valuable lesson.
There is a reason people do it... because if done carefully it can be done in absolute safety. ts who habitually jump red lights to get at least bumped into at some point. This would teach them a valuable lesson. Commuters who do the same route day-in, day-out, know the traffic light phasing and where danger comes from. Sometimes it can be argued that jumping a red light is safer all-round for cyclists! A good example is here: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&am...
The traffic lights hold up traffic going straight, on so cars can turn out of the road on the right. Jumping the lights here for a cyclist can save them getting pinched by two lanes of traffic when the lights go green. Its a horrendous junction to be small and squishy.
I'm not a red-light jumper (I'm never in that much of a hurry), and I'm not a regular cycle commuter either. I commute about once a fortnight on bicycle, the rest of the time I'm on a motorbike, and although I see a lot of cyclists jumping red lights, the number of times I see them coming into conflict with traffic or pedestrians as a result is very low.
This may be different in central London though, when pedestrian crossing are far more common than the main commuter routes.
Edited by Mr Gear on Tuesday 28th September 11:46
Mr Gear said:
fergus said:
As an aside, I really want some of the tts who habitually jump red lights to get at least bumped into at some point. This would teach them a valuable lesson.
There is a reason people do it... because if done carefully it can be done in absolute safety. ts who habitually jump red lights to get at least bumped into at some point. This would teach them a valuable lesson. Commuters who do the same route day-in, day-out, know the traffic light phasing and where danger comes from. Sometimes it can be argued that jumping a red light is safer all-round for cyclists! A good example is here: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&am...
The traffic lights hold up traffic going straight, on so cars can turn out of the road on the right. Jumping the lights here for a cyclist can save them getting pinched by two lanes of traffic when the lights go green. Its a horrendous junction to be small and squishy.
I agree that there are a number of situations where it is 'safe' to do so, but that doesn't make it right, especially when people literally sail through these type of junctions rather than stop then set off before the main traffic.
Let's just hope that the car/bike coming out of the side junction doesn't have the same attitude.....
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