Chinese carbon MTB frames.
Discussion
Would you guys contemplate one of these? Or would you get an extended barge pole out?
Is it the usual too good to be true price and from China issue or does it look ok?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Full-Carbon-MTB-20-Frame-Han...
Is it the usual too good to be true price and from China issue or does it look ok?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Full-Carbon-MTB-20-Frame-Han...
google "deng fu bikes" or try to find one of the epic chinese carbon frame threads on road.cc or bikeradar. some run to 100+ pages and detail peoples entire buying process. there are also a good few on ebay and you can get some great deals on bars and forks.
there are loads of chinese carbon bikes around in the UK now, lots of people have taken the punt and ended up with really good bikes. a lot of reserach has gone into these bikes from the buyers in the UK to the point where peopel have been able to identify hte factories they are built in (and cross reference that with peopel like Giant) and the geometry has been compared to pinarello et al and found to be identical. the internal finishing on the chinese frames i have seen has not been as good as the big name brands but then you arent paying big name prices.
some one is either using the same moulds or has taken a copy and is banging out these frames. its a well known fact that the De Rosa shares its geometry with the Ribble Stealth and is the same frame, there seems little reason not to believe that these are big name brand geometry frames without the big name on the side.
it depends how vain you are, if you want people to know you can afford a pinarello, buy one. if you want to save some money and ride the same bike, buy a chinarello.
havent heard many warranty issues and those that I have heard about were resolved pretty quickly. the value of UK/US business that people like Deng Fu are getting means that they are pretty helpful by all accounts.
ignore the nay-sayers who will claim its cheap carbon or built in back alleys in shanghai. they are just envious that you will have the same frame as their dream bike for half the price.....
there are loads of chinese carbon bikes around in the UK now, lots of people have taken the punt and ended up with really good bikes. a lot of reserach has gone into these bikes from the buyers in the UK to the point where peopel have been able to identify hte factories they are built in (and cross reference that with peopel like Giant) and the geometry has been compared to pinarello et al and found to be identical. the internal finishing on the chinese frames i have seen has not been as good as the big name brands but then you arent paying big name prices.
some one is either using the same moulds or has taken a copy and is banging out these frames. its a well known fact that the De Rosa shares its geometry with the Ribble Stealth and is the same frame, there seems little reason not to believe that these are big name brand geometry frames without the big name on the side.
it depends how vain you are, if you want people to know you can afford a pinarello, buy one. if you want to save some money and ride the same bike, buy a chinarello.
havent heard many warranty issues and those that I have heard about were resolved pretty quickly. the value of UK/US business that people like Deng Fu are getting means that they are pretty helpful by all accounts.
ignore the nay-sayers who will claim its cheap carbon or built in back alleys in shanghai. they are just envious that you will have the same frame as their dream bike for half the price.....
allegro said:
Sweeping statement i know but i wouldn't ride anything made in China. I have seem far to much poorly made and dangerous 
stuff come out of that country.
No Specialized, Felt, Kona, Trek or Giant for you then? Dont fancy a Colnago, a Cervelo or a Fuji? stuff come out of that country.http://allanti.com/articles/where-was-my-bike-made...
pablo said:
No Specialized, Felt, Kona, Trek or Giant for you then? Dont fancy a Colnago, a Cervelo or a Fuji?
http://allanti.com/articles/where-was-my-bike-made...
er... "Generally speaking, low to mid level bikes are made in China and mid to high level bikes are made in Taiwan."http://allanti.com/articles/where-was-my-bike-made...
Taken from your reference, not mine.
Says all i need to know right there.
pablo said:
allegro said:
Sweeping statement i know but i wouldn't ride anything made in China. I have seem far to much poorly made and dangerous stuff come out of that country.
No Specialized, Felt, Kona, Trek or Giant for you then? Dont fancy a Colnago, a Cervelo or a Fuji? stuff come out of that country.http://allanti.com/articles/where-was-my-bike-made...
Back to Allegro's 'sweeping' statement; I'm afraid I'd tend to agree on this.
Unless you are absolutely certain of the provenance of the frame - which as you point out is possible, but perhaps arduous - I'd be as wary of 'cheap' carbon as 'cheap' Ti. I've heard some very significant failures of Ti frames; Google the words "456", "ti", "inbred" and "failure" for just one example. Other manufacturers have also been affected.
Having a frame fail is no joke. Aside from financial consequences, the safety aspect does not have limits.
I can see why people do it - certainly why they try to circumvent 'expensive', big brand badge-engineering - but I don't think I'd ever want to ride anything I was unsure of, on or off road.
there is a massive difference between a carbon TT bike and a carbon MTB, both sourced from China. one is designed to go straight and fast, the other to take drops, bumps and other abuse. I have only heard of a very small number of chinese carbon TT/road frame failing to date and of course, you only hear about the ones that break not the hundreds of others that dont....
I appreciate the general discussion started with reference to mountain bikes but I would take that article with a pinch of salt, i think a lot more of medium to higher end stuff (road and mtb) is made in China (and not Taiwan) than you want to imagine.
The bicycle industry has very interesting ways of maximising profit...
I appreciate the general discussion started with reference to mountain bikes but I would take that article with a pinch of salt, i think a lot more of medium to higher end stuff (road and mtb) is made in China (and not Taiwan) than you want to imagine.
The bicycle industry has very interesting ways of maximising profit...
pablo said:
I think a lot more of medium to higher end stuff (road and mtb) is made in China (and not Taiwan) than you want to imagine.
I'm certain you are correct. However, in terms of the threat of litigation from Joe s
t, who bought a 'cheap' frame online and Mr Big bd American Corporation who has a $M supply contract, I know which custoemr the factory will take more acre over, sadly.There are many instances of factories producing vastly different qualities of product, often even on the same lines...
Edited by Digga on Friday 1st April 11:44
allegro said:
pablo said:
No Specialized, Felt, Kona, Trek or Giant for you then? Dont fancy a Colnago, a Cervelo or a Fuji?
http://allanti.com/articles/where-was-my-bike-made...
er... "Generally speaking, low to mid level bikes are made in China and mid to high level bikes are made in Taiwan."http://allanti.com/articles/where-was-my-bike-made...
Taken from your reference, not mine.
Says all i need to know right there.
"Generally speaking, low to mid level bikes are made in China and mid to high level bikes are made in Taiwan. The exception is carbon; many manufacturers use Chinese manufacturers to make their carbon frames – even their high-end racing frames."
No axe to grind personally, as others have posted there are both good and bad frames on the market. I have both a cheapie & a USA made Trek road frames, both work as far as I can see. It's the old "buyer beware" thing
Having seen top quality pharmaceutical production lines first hand in operation in China, I can confirm that in many cases their production capabilities in new facilities can far exceed UK & US standards. The trouble you have is ensuring that the companies entrusted with that capability are:-
1. Not doing it the proper way just because your there at the time and
2. Not selling your IP or substandard products on the black market.
With regard to point 1 it can be quite easy to track quality levels that go out the front door, but not the back. and with regard to point 2 this is one of China's biggest issues in dealing with the West.
So I would wager that whilst the frames brought direct from China/Taiwan could be as good and exactly the same as those from the big boys, you're taking a risk, your also undermining or potentially engaging in an illegal transaction unless it is completely clear who owns the rights to reproduce and retail the frame. Which if it gets out of hand will just undermine established Western brands and they'll go under.
Indeed +1 on Caveat Emptor, I wouldn't buy one, I don't think I get fleeced by paying £1,000 for a bike retail in the UK that cost what £500 to put together because I understand that the cost of the components is not the only cost involved in the process, there is R&D, marketing & sales, aftersales support and logistics on top of just manufacturing and assembly and then you have to factor in the profit a bike shop needs to make on it as well.
Edit
I do agree however if the Frame was made in China or Taiwan it should say so, irrespective of where it was painted/decaled and/or assembled into a full bike
1. Not doing it the proper way just because your there at the time and
2. Not selling your IP or substandard products on the black market.
With regard to point 1 it can be quite easy to track quality levels that go out the front door, but not the back. and with regard to point 2 this is one of China's biggest issues in dealing with the West.
So I would wager that whilst the frames brought direct from China/Taiwan could be as good and exactly the same as those from the big boys, you're taking a risk, your also undermining or potentially engaging in an illegal transaction unless it is completely clear who owns the rights to reproduce and retail the frame. Which if it gets out of hand will just undermine established Western brands and they'll go under.
Indeed +1 on Caveat Emptor, I wouldn't buy one, I don't think I get fleeced by paying £1,000 for a bike retail in the UK that cost what £500 to put together because I understand that the cost of the components is not the only cost involved in the process, there is R&D, marketing & sales, aftersales support and logistics on top of just manufacturing and assembly and then you have to factor in the profit a bike shop needs to make on it as well.
Edit
I do agree however if the Frame was made in China or Taiwan it should say so, irrespective of where it was painted/decaled and/or assembled into a full bike
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 1st April 11:02
Having experience of working on, repairing, testing and even cutting up both high end and cheap carbon frames (the latter are more plastic and glass fibre) then I can tell yo uthere is a massive difference in weight, strength, performance and durability. I have seen cheaper frames from makes like Orbea, Cube and Boardman stuffed full of filler and green towelling to get the bladders to work properly whilst the frame is heavier than a high end alloy frame whsilt being flexier and just not as nice to ride.
Proper high end carbon is a different game. Trek for example have their high end stuff made in the USA still whilst the mid range carbon is made by Giants Advanced Composites division in Taiwan but in a seperate facility added onto their main facility. It's staffed seperately and Trek have their own composite engineers over there keeping an eye on things and spot batch quality testing to maintain QC.
Proper high end carbon is a different game. Trek for example have their high end stuff made in the USA still whilst the mid range carbon is made by Giants Advanced Composites division in Taiwan but in a seperate facility added onto their main facility. It's staffed seperately and Trek have their own composite engineers over there keeping an eye on things and spot batch quality testing to maintain QC.
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