one sided race......
Discussion
Good but check this out.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CIRSR10F-ws&NR=1
4.577 329.10. in Aus. Is that the quickest + fastest outside the US.
Over to you folks
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CIRSR10F-ws&NR=1
4.577 329.10. in Aus. Is that the quickest + fastest outside the US.
Over to you folks
snakehips said:
Good but check this out.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CIRSR10F-ws&NR=1
4.577 329.10. in Aus. Is that the quickest + fastest outside the US.
Over to you folks
not bad for a car upside down cobbers...lolhttp://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CIRSR10F-ws&NR=1
4.577 329.10. in Aus. Is that the quickest + fastest outside the US.
Over to you folks
snakehips said:
4.577 329.10. in Aus. Is that the quickest + fastest outside the US.
Hi, Brian. It isn't, actually and by quite a bit, in TF terms. At the same track in December 2006, the late and very great Scott Kalitta made a number of sizzling passes culminating in an incredible 4.517 at an unbelievable 332.84mph. To shut up everybody well and proper, he backed up both the ET and the speed with a 4.56 at 330mph.
Scott visited WSID to race during December 2005 and December 2006 and on both occasions he was accompanied with several Kalitta crew members including Jim and Jon Oberhoffer - seasoned Kalitta Crew Chiefs. In 2006 David Grubnic was also racing at WSID.
I believe that on both occasions Kalitta racing were delivering complete turnkey race cars to Australian teams.
A video composite of every run that Scott made during his 05 and 06 visits can be seen by clicking the link below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1NGxue4eWw
Sorry to be late on this thread but I had the opportunity to look at an ANDRA rulebook in June and the way their lights work at the start of a race means that they would get quicker ETs than here in the UK. I just wish I could remember what the wording was...
Edited by NitroWars on Wednesday 24th September 15:12
NitroWars said:
Sorry to be late on this thread but I had the opportunity to look at an ANDRA rulebook in June and the way their lights work at the start of a race means that they would get quicker ETs than here in the UK. I just wish I could remember what the wording was...
So Jim - does this mean the runs were bull, compared to FIA timed quarters? If so, what are the exact differences? If we know those differences and we factor Scott's 4.517 at 332.84mph run into some sort of "FIA timing model" what would it equate to?Oh dear! I'm getting lost with my own questions! Perhaps Mr. Crikey could cast some light on this - if he's not too busy working off his birthday hangover!
I can't remember the exact wording either (and this may soon end up in another pistonheads pi55ing match), but the ANDRA rules give the impression that the timers are ONLY triggered by the guard-beam being broken rather than the stage-beam being remade behind the front wheel. Whereas, the FIA/NHRA rules allow for the guard-beam only to start the timers if the green is already showing and the timers have not been started by the stage-beam remaking. Obviously if the guard-beam is broken before the green, this would cause a red on the tree. I don't know the average amount of rollout that TF front wheels/tyres allow, but I would hazard a guess they generally let the stage beam remake some inches before the guard-beam would be broken.
This is only from my understanding of the rulebook and may not be how things work in practice.
Over to AM for a proper explanation!
This is only from my understanding of the rulebook and may not be how things work in practice.
Over to AM for a proper explanation!
Edited by TheMighty on Wednesday 24th September 19:01
Ok, this isn't particularly easy to explain without pointing at stuff or drawing fancy pictures, but here goes. Some of this will be stating the bleeding obvious; some will be teaching some of you to suck eggs. Apologies in advance 
IF WSID use the guard beam to start the clock then they may not be running over 1/4 mile, it depends on where they measure the start of the 1/4 from of course. If they measure it from the guard beam then of course they are running a true 1/4 (or as true as any other) they just doing it in a slightly odd way (but then they are Aussies)
Assuming for a moment they are running slightly shorter, it will only be a matter of inches, therefore almost negligible with regards to ET or speed, so unless they are doing something odd with their lights then I can’t see how they’re gaining any particular advantage.
For example, say it makes a difference of 12 inches, you’re probably looking at around 0.003 difference on a decent run.
Over here the guard beam is there to prevent cheating (for the want of a better word), if you break the guard beam before the stage has remade then you are DQ’d. Hence the rules regarding ground clearance (from memory, something along the lines of 3 inches clearance from the front of the vehicle to a point 12 inches behind the front axle).
In the extreme, what this prevents is someone sticking something along the bottom of their car so that the stage beam does not remake, and the clock start, until the length of the car has passed through stage. (If a TF rail were to do this it knock something like 0.06 off its ET)
Of course it would be real easy to spot as the RT would go through the roof and the 60ft time would drop.
If any racers or crew want a more in depth (i.e. pointing at stuff) explanation feel free to pop down to the startline before racing starts, where we will at some point be setting up the rollout (as we do at the beginning of each day) so you can see how it’s done.
IF WSID use the guard beam to start the clock then they may not be running over 1/4 mile, it depends on where they measure the start of the 1/4 from of course. If they measure it from the guard beam then of course they are running a true 1/4 (or as true as any other) they just doing it in a slightly odd way (but then they are Aussies)
Assuming for a moment they are running slightly shorter, it will only be a matter of inches, therefore almost negligible with regards to ET or speed, so unless they are doing something odd with their lights then I can’t see how they’re gaining any particular advantage.
For example, say it makes a difference of 12 inches, you’re probably looking at around 0.003 difference on a decent run.
Over here the guard beam is there to prevent cheating (for the want of a better word), if you break the guard beam before the stage has remade then you are DQ’d. Hence the rules regarding ground clearance (from memory, something along the lines of 3 inches clearance from the front of the vehicle to a point 12 inches behind the front axle).
In the extreme, what this prevents is someone sticking something along the bottom of their car so that the stage beam does not remake, and the clock start, until the length of the car has passed through stage. (If a TF rail were to do this it knock something like 0.06 off its ET)
Of course it would be real easy to spot as the RT would go through the roof and the 60ft time would drop.
If any racers or crew want a more in depth (i.e. pointing at stuff) explanation feel free to pop down to the startline before racing starts, where we will at some point be setting up the rollout (as we do at the beginning of each day) so you can see how it’s done.
crikey said:
Ok, this isn't particularly easy to explain without pointing at stuff or drawing fancy pictures, but here goes. Some of this will be stating the bleeding obvious; some will be teaching some of you to suck eggs. Apologies in advance
IF WSID use the guard beam to start the clock then they may not be running over 1/4 mile, it depends on where they measure the start of the 1/4 from of course. If they measure it from the guard beam then of course they are running a true 1/4 (or as true as any other) they just doing it in a slightly odd way (but then they are Aussies)
Assuming for a moment they are running slightly shorter, it will only be a matter of inches, therefore almost negligible with regards to ET or speed, so unless they are doing something odd with their lights then I can’t see how they’re gaining any particular advantage.
For example, say it makes a difference of 12 inches, you’re probably looking at around 0.003 difference on a decent run.
Over here the guard beam is there to prevent cheating (for the want of a better word), if you break the guard beam before the stage has remade then you are DQ’d. Hence the rules regarding ground clearance (from memory, something along the lines of 3 inches clearance from the front of the vehicle to a point 12 inches behind the front axle).
In the extreme, what this prevents is someone sticking something along the bottom of their car so that the stage beam does not remake, and the clock start, until the length of the car has passed through stage. (If a TF rail were to do this it knock something like 0.06 off its ET)
Of course it would be real easy to spot as the RT would go through the roof and the 60ft time would drop.
If any racers or crew want a more in depth (i.e. pointing at stuff) explanation feel free to pop down to the startline before racing starts, where we will at some point be setting up the rollout (as we do at the beginning of each day) so you can see how it’s done.
Andy Marrs, you're my hero!IF WSID use the guard beam to start the clock then they may not be running over 1/4 mile, it depends on where they measure the start of the 1/4 from of course. If they measure it from the guard beam then of course they are running a true 1/4 (or as true as any other) they just doing it in a slightly odd way (but then they are Aussies)
Assuming for a moment they are running slightly shorter, it will only be a matter of inches, therefore almost negligible with regards to ET or speed, so unless they are doing something odd with their lights then I can’t see how they’re gaining any particular advantage.
For example, say it makes a difference of 12 inches, you’re probably looking at around 0.003 difference on a decent run.
Over here the guard beam is there to prevent cheating (for the want of a better word), if you break the guard beam before the stage has remade then you are DQ’d. Hence the rules regarding ground clearance (from memory, something along the lines of 3 inches clearance from the front of the vehicle to a point 12 inches behind the front axle).
In the extreme, what this prevents is someone sticking something along the bottom of their car so that the stage beam does not remake, and the clock start, until the length of the car has passed through stage. (If a TF rail were to do this it knock something like 0.06 off its ET)
Of course it would be real easy to spot as the RT would go through the roof and the 60ft time would drop.
If any racers or crew want a more in depth (i.e. pointing at stuff) explanation feel free to pop down to the startline before racing starts, where we will at some point be setting up the rollout (as we do at the beginning of each day) so you can see how it’s done.
How far is the guard beam ahead of the last stage beam? If, as you say, a track were measured from this guard beam rather than from the stage beam, wouldn't the car be effectively doing a rolling start quarter mile? (I appreciate that shallow staging effectively means they are all 'rolling' starts, but would using the guard beam to start the clocks render this in extremis?) I remember reading somewhere that a shallow staged Fuel Car can be hitting 50 mph when it remakes the second beam.
Surely though, if there was anything non-standard about the clocks at WSID or elsewhere in the colonies, the American message boards (previously renowned for their restraint when such matters of timing practise are discussed) would have cried foul at the first whiff of the Aussie doorslammers running fives with such apparrent impunity?
crikey said:
Ok, this isn't particularly easy to explain without pointing at stuff or drawing fancy pictures, but here goes. Some of this will be stating the bleeding obvious; some will be teaching some of you to suck eggs. Apologies in advance
IF WSID use the guard beam to start the clock then they may not be running over 1/4 mile, it depends on where they measure the start of the 1/4 from of course. If they measure it from the guard beam then of course they are running a true 1/4 (or as true as any other) they just doing it in a slightly odd way (but then they are Aussies)
Assuming for a moment they are running slightly shorter, it will only be a matter of inches, therefore almost negligible with regards to ET or speed, so unless they are doing something odd with their lights then I can’t see how they’re gaining any particular advantage.
For example, say it makes a difference of 12 inches, you’re probably looking at around 0.003 difference on a decent run.
Over here the guard beam is there to prevent cheating (for the want of a better word), if you break the guard beam before the stage has remade then you are DQ’d. Hence the rules regarding ground clearance (from memory, something along the lines of 3 inches clearance from the front of the vehicle to a point 12 inches behind the front axle).
In the extreme, what this prevents is someone sticking something along the bottom of their car so that the stage beam does not remake, and the clock start, until the length of the car has passed through stage. (If a TF rail were to do this it knock something like 0.06 off its ET)
Of course it would be real easy to spot as the RT would go through the roof and the 60ft time would drop.
If any racers or crew want a more in depth (i.e. pointing at stuff) explanation feel free to pop down to the startline before racing starts, where we will at some point be setting up the rollout (as we do at the beginning of each day) so you can see how it’s done.
Thanks very much indeed for the information, Mr Crikey. I didn't think it sounded the slightest bit straight forward when Nitrowars raised the point. Much appreciated.IF WSID use the guard beam to start the clock then they may not be running over 1/4 mile, it depends on where they measure the start of the 1/4 from of course. If they measure it from the guard beam then of course they are running a true 1/4 (or as true as any other) they just doing it in a slightly odd way (but then they are Aussies)
Assuming for a moment they are running slightly shorter, it will only be a matter of inches, therefore almost negligible with regards to ET or speed, so unless they are doing something odd with their lights then I can’t see how they’re gaining any particular advantage.
For example, say it makes a difference of 12 inches, you’re probably looking at around 0.003 difference on a decent run.
Over here the guard beam is there to prevent cheating (for the want of a better word), if you break the guard beam before the stage has remade then you are DQ’d. Hence the rules regarding ground clearance (from memory, something along the lines of 3 inches clearance from the front of the vehicle to a point 12 inches behind the front axle).
In the extreme, what this prevents is someone sticking something along the bottom of their car so that the stage beam does not remake, and the clock start, until the length of the car has passed through stage. (If a TF rail were to do this it knock something like 0.06 off its ET)
Of course it would be real easy to spot as the RT would go through the roof and the 60ft time would drop.
If any racers or crew want a more in depth (i.e. pointing at stuff) explanation feel free to pop down to the startline before racing starts, where we will at some point be setting up the rollout (as we do at the beginning of each day) so you can see how it’s done.
Jon C said:
How far is the guard beam ahead of the last stage beam? If, as you say, a track were measured from this guard beam rather than from the stage beam, wouldn't the car be effectively doing a rolling start quarter mile? (I appreciate that shallow staging effectively means they are all 'rolling' starts, but would using the guard beam to start the clocks render this in extremis?) I remember reading somewhere that a shallow staged Fuel Car can be hitting 50 mph when it remakes the second beam.
Surely though, if there was anything non-standard about the clocks at WSID or elsewhere in the colonies, the American message boards (previously renowned for their restraint when such matters of timing practise are discussed) would have cried foul at the first whiff of the Aussie doorslammers running fives with such apparrent impunity?
From memory (note: fish point at me and laugh) I think it's 12 inches. I can't honestly remember because we don't use a tape measure anymore, we had a gauge made to measure rollout. Surely though, if there was anything non-standard about the clocks at WSID or elsewhere in the colonies, the American message boards (previously renowned for their restraint when such matters of timing practise are discussed) would have cried foul at the first whiff of the Aussie doorslammers running fives with such apparrent impunity?
The pre-stage, stage and guard beams are all mounted on plates, all we do at the start of the days is fix these in place using bolts which are permamnently fixed into the ground (under the black boxes you see on the startline). The only adjustable thing is the height, which we occassionaly have to alter to get the rollout right.
Suck eggs time, sequence of events (I'll check measurements at the weekend):
Wheel breaks pre stage
7 inches later it breaks stage
5 inches later pre stage remakes (deep stage)
7 inches further forward and stage will remake (you'll get no time recorded)
a bit further forward and the guard beam is tripped.
It can't be exact (i.e. you cant have the guard set to trip 1mm after you leave stage) because of the varying wheel sizes. We use a 22 inch wheel to measure rollout, which I believe was adjudged to be a "worst case" or the biggest wheel possible in use.
If David Anniwell is around he'll probably know the distances off the top of his head, because his brain is half the age of mine and works properly.
Edited by crikey on Thursday 25th September 00:59
crikey said:
Of course it would be real easy to spot as the RT would go through the roof and the 60ft time would drop.
...and everyone in the place goes mad because a Pro Mod has run the first five in Europe but Tog is sitting there saying "Er, look at that sixty foot time, 0.661, I don't think so" 
Jon C said:
Surely though, if there was anything non-standard about the clocks at WSID or elsewhere in the colonies, the American message boards (previously renowned for their restraint when such matters of timing practise are discussed) would have cried foul at the first whiff of the Aussie doorslammers running fives with such apparrent impunity?
Quite apart from any differences in the timing system, Aussie Top Doorslammers run to a different set of rules which allow, for example, higher overdrive limits than you would see in Pro Mod. That's partially why they hit the fives more easily than their American brethren. Similarly in Top Fuel actually[1], where they allow multi valve heads and overhead camshafts (although I'd be astounded if Kalitta had been running in anything other than NHRA trim).[1] Or at least, they certainly have done in the past. I know there was some talk of bringing them into line with the rest of the world a while back, but I don't know if that ever happened.
Jon C said:
Surely though, if there was anything non-standard about the clocks at WSID or elsewhere in the colonies, the American message boards (previously renowned for their restraint when such matters of timing practise are discussed) would have cried foul at the first whiff of the Aussie doorslammers running fives with such apparrent impunity?
Impunity means "exemption from punishment or loss".so who would punish them?
it sounds like the aussies have their own rules and are allowed to surely?
Eurodragster.com said:
topnitro said:
Scott's 4.517 at 332.84mph run
I'm no expert but the speed of that run would pretty much tend to validate the ET wouldn't it?As you say, the numbers all seem to add up on Scott's runs and the video compares nicely to the 'fifties' and 'forties' runs I've witnessed 'in the flesh'.
Cheers.
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