CHRR Nostalgia ?
Discussion
Having watched a lot of the racing on bangshift.com, I couldn't help but feel the nostalgia element of the actual racing is sliding. The diggers were the first to evolve, slab sided, canards, all modern materials etc ? now the funnys are getting longer noses, deeper side skirts, swoopy cockpits, a little wider, modern paint schemes etc ?
Evolution is natural when you have close competition, but at what point does it cease to be nostalgia and miss the point ? I'm all for modern chassis and safety rules but shouldn't the ethos be on the car running and recreating the feel of the 60's / 70's era or is simply having a front engined dragster or a funny car body that started out based on a period car enough ?
Evolution is natural when you have close competition, but at what point does it cease to be nostalgia and miss the point ? I'm all for modern chassis and safety rules but shouldn't the ethos be on the car running and recreating the feel of the 60's / 70's era or is simply having a front engined dragster or a funny car body that started out based on a period car enough ?
It must be upto the class organisers to implement rules which suite the class, safety is the first priority, but racers are bound by nature to want to win, however ive seen hugh tewb clips of the winged express, now theres a car/crew just happy to relive the 60s/70s, albeit with a car that is a handfull without even trying...
its the transition from exhibition runs to competition that causes the problem
"sometimes it goes straight......"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFOmGkv6Dn8
its the transition from exhibition runs to competition that causes the problem
"sometimes it goes straight......"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFOmGkv6Dn8
PhilSweeney said:
Having watched a lot of the racing on bangshift.com, I couldn't help but feel the nostalgia element of the actual racing is sliding. The diggers were the first to evolve, slab sided, canards, all modern materials etc ? now the funnys are getting longer noses, deeper side skirts, swoopy cockpits, a little wider, modern paint schemes etc ?
Evolution is natural when you have close competition, but at what point does it cease to be nostalgia and miss the point ? I'm all for modern chassis and safety rules but shouldn't the ethos be on the car running and recreating the feel of the 60's / 70's era or is simply having a front engined dragster or a funny car body that started out based on a period car enough ?
If you have 60's power then fine. These cars have 21st century power,with speeds to match. It would be stupid to make them run how they were. It would be an accident waiting to happen. As long as the spirit is there then it's no problem(to me)..Evolution is natural when you have close competition, but at what point does it cease to be nostalgia and miss the point ? I'm all for modern chassis and safety rules but shouldn't the ethos be on the car running and recreating the feel of the 60's / 70's era or is simply having a front engined dragster or a funny car body that started out based on a period car enough ?
redvictor said:
If you have 60's power then fine. These cars have 21st century power,with speeds to match. It would be stupid to make them run how they were. It would be an accident waiting to happen. As long as the spirit is there then it's no problem(to me)..
Defining where the spirit stops is the problem. The full on FEDs to me are impressive but not Nostalgia, and the Funny Cars should remain authentic in my eyes.It is odd how drag racing sees this ongoing development even in nostalgia yet in the circuit racing world you get dedication to period accuracy in historic classes. I guess drag racers are always looking to squeeze a little bit more out of what they have and therefore start making more power than in the past and you get the problem described above.
From my view, Drag Racing is about winning within the safety and construction rules. Not who has the most 'period' looking car. Nostalgia or otherwise. There have been far too many crashes this year with cars that conform to this 'period' scenerio. Far too much power and not enough common sense with downforce and weight transfer.
veryoldfart said:
make them "selling stake" races, whose gonna spend £50K on a winning car when it must be sold for £10K if it wins....
They tried that in the ASCAR series back in the '80s, and it didn't work. It failed to price in labour costs (leaving aside the civil liberties issues), all you would end up with is 16 identical matt black or gel coat funny cars.ok, run em on an index....
if it costs lots to go fast, and REALLY lots to go REALLY fast, surely a 6.5 second index would suffice for a slingshot or period AAFC, after all, a 7 was agreat pass in 1975!
(or any other to suit)
also, can the beer and food stalls charge 1975 prices to complete the nostalgia experience?
if it costs lots to go fast, and REALLY lots to go REALLY fast, surely a 6.5 second index would suffice for a slingshot or period AAFC, after all, a 7 was agreat pass in 1975!
(or any other to suit)
also, can the beer and food stalls charge 1975 prices to complete the nostalgia experience?
Edited by veryoldfart on Sunday 25th October 13:08
Bob Jarrett said:
From my view, Drag Racing is about winning within the safety and construction rules. Not who has the most 'period' looking car. Nostalgia or otherwise. There have been far too many crashes this year with cars that conform to this 'period' scenerio. Far too much power and not enough common sense with downforce and weight transfer.
there lies the problem Bob, limit the power levels, keep the safety aspect and let it remain nostalgic. Seems odd for the it to just evolve again, it's been done already ?. I think they'll lose something really special if they let the teams keep pushing the cars further away from the original intention. The biggest holdbacks in these classes are as follows,,,,,,,fuel slingshot,12 inch wide tyre,engine in front of the driver,,,,,,,,,,,fuel funny,,,,,4amp points activated magneto,and a transmission,34.5 inch tyres.Guys are making steps forward in performance because they keep refining the cars which are stuck with these rules,they never stuck with these combos back then and moved on to ,,,,,,,,,moving the engine behind the driver{dragster} 1970ish,and for funnys we had small improvements like 88 amps ,,eventually ,,,100 gallon pumps ,,eventually,,,,,multistage lockup clutches,,windtunnel useage,,corporate sponsorship,tyre technology,etc etc etc etc etc ,,all of a sudden 12 inch tyres and 4 amp mags look like they fell out of the dark ages let alone ,,,,,,nostalgia,,,,,,,,,,,,,,think about this,,,,squeezing 3500 hp through a car that has direct drive and a 12 inch tyre,then look at a modern fuel dragster ,,they are very different.The nostalgia fuel funny is only allowed 20 ish gallons of pump and you can only light it with 4 amps,,,
Edited by fester426 on Monday 26th October 21:38
veryoldfart said:
would an index not work then?
No, for exactly the same reasons that an index wouldn't work in Top Fuel. If one sanction ran a 6.0 index, within 3 seconds another track up the road would offer fans an unlimited show. Where would all the fans and racers go? See Bob's post above. I think a lot of the nostalgia side has gone from the racing, apart from a few cars in NTF such as Brendan Murray's which epitomises a fuel digger most are the box tall cars, and the funny cars are getting pinnocio noses and deep skirts for aero and handling reasons.
But the nostalgia movement gives a prominant race series for cars that otherwise would be doing the occasional outlaw events or bracket racing, aside the obvious NTF & NFC, theres open a-fuel for blown alky, injected nitro & alky centre steer cars and typically running mid to high 6s, there 7.0 pro which is for the same type cars as a-fuel but running to a 7.0 index, theres various nostalgia eliminator brackets, afx/stock
If you want pure nostalgia theres the cackle cars
But the nostalgia movement gives a prominant race series for cars that otherwise would be doing the occasional outlaw events or bracket racing, aside the obvious NTF & NFC, theres open a-fuel for blown alky, injected nitro & alky centre steer cars and typically running mid to high 6s, there 7.0 pro which is for the same type cars as a-fuel but running to a 7.0 index, theres various nostalgia eliminator brackets, afx/stock
If you want pure nostalgia theres the cackle cars
Jon C said:
veryoldfart said:
would an index not work then?
No, for exactly the same reasons that an index wouldn't work in Top Fuel. If one sanction ran a 6.0 index, within 3 seconds another track up the road would offer fans an unlimited show. Where would all the fans and racers go? See Bob's post above. plus, as with the NFAA, wouldnt THEY make the rules, olus there wont actually be 100s of cars in the running...
veryoldfart said:
Jon C said:
veryoldfart said:
would an index not work then?
No, for exactly the same reasons that an index wouldn't work in Top Fuel. If one sanction ran a 6.0 index, within 3 seconds another track up the road would offer fans an unlimited show. Where would all the fans and racers go? See Bob's post above. plus, as with the NFAA, wouldnt THEY make the rules, olus there wont actually be 100s of cars in the running...
since the NHRA has taken the VRA classes under it's wing, there's been a few rule amendments, in the hope of slowing cars down. The issue has always been though, with the peiod correct vehicles, they reach a limit whereby they're held back from going quicker by their period appearance. This brought on the evolution of the N/TF dragster into what we see today, a slab sided, carbon fibre canard clad, upright rollcage deal.
It's still possible to retain the aesthetics, but only to a point. the N/TF in the US have been upping their game every season for the last few years, and in reality, there's no points awarded for having a pretty car. When you consider that Jack Harris has run into the 5.50's (5.56/266mph IIRC), you see that those times and speeds aren't far off a modern day TMD. It's not until you look at the spec of such cars as Jack's that you see how gobsmacking this is. The caveat in the rulebook currently states that speeds over 260mph and ET's in the mid 5 second range will bring forth possible rule revisions. That might be why you see things have settled into the low 5.70 bracket this year.
398ci early Hemi, 6/71 (limited to 14%OD), spec approved fuel pump (limited to specific part numbers, flow upto around 20gpm), 16 fuel injectors only, 12" wide M&H or Hoosiers. Direct drive only etc etc. Technically they're already very restrained as to what they can do. To overcome the above, motors are being spun to 11,000rpm. The surprising thing has been that nobody's really got the late Hemi deal to work in N/TF yet. When you look at N/FC, it's a similar story when it comes to rule limitations, and again, a few guys have taken the class by the scruff and run numbers which you'd never think possible (Bucky Austin being the obvious example, running into the low 5.70's, which with a 2 speed car, is hugely impressive).
The FED's don't suffer on the aero side as much, so it's easier to make things look original without having to go down the modern bodystyle route, but the line was crossed a couple of years ago when speeds and horsepower levels crept into the range we currently see. From there, there was no way back. To keep pace, teams were forced to up their game, fielding 'ugly' cars if it meant they'd go rounds.
I work quite closely with Brendan Murry, who's been testing the Arias Hemi headed Chevy deal this year. First signs are that it'll have enough beans to keep with the big boys, but it's quite an aggressive setup. The new car itself does have a very period look, and Brendan's hope was to be running in the .70's, which is very do-able, but there's no argument that modern aero would help it go quicker and bring some stability.
Translating all that to the UK, with the topolino altered we wanted to keep it as period correct as possible. Largely this was achieved, but it makes the car quite tricky to drive. Weight distribution isn't optimal, and the steering input involved to keep it straight, in the first few hundred feet has been excessive on most full power runs. The other problem has been lift at the top end. From the 1/8th mile onwards it had a tendancy to lift the front end off the deck. This might sound great, and it makes good photos, but one day I'd have ended up parking it in the barrier, so it's been addressed and shouldn't be an issue any longer. This along with new shiny bits to go a bit quicker, and the street heads are being ditched, for some that work
It's still possible to retain the aesthetics, but only to a point. the N/TF in the US have been upping their game every season for the last few years, and in reality, there's no points awarded for having a pretty car. When you consider that Jack Harris has run into the 5.50's (5.56/266mph IIRC), you see that those times and speeds aren't far off a modern day TMD. It's not until you look at the spec of such cars as Jack's that you see how gobsmacking this is. The caveat in the rulebook currently states that speeds over 260mph and ET's in the mid 5 second range will bring forth possible rule revisions. That might be why you see things have settled into the low 5.70 bracket this year.
398ci early Hemi, 6/71 (limited to 14%OD), spec approved fuel pump (limited to specific part numbers, flow upto around 20gpm), 16 fuel injectors only, 12" wide M&H or Hoosiers. Direct drive only etc etc. Technically they're already very restrained as to what they can do. To overcome the above, motors are being spun to 11,000rpm. The surprising thing has been that nobody's really got the late Hemi deal to work in N/TF yet. When you look at N/FC, it's a similar story when it comes to rule limitations, and again, a few guys have taken the class by the scruff and run numbers which you'd never think possible (Bucky Austin being the obvious example, running into the low 5.70's, which with a 2 speed car, is hugely impressive).
The FED's don't suffer on the aero side as much, so it's easier to make things look original without having to go down the modern bodystyle route, but the line was crossed a couple of years ago when speeds and horsepower levels crept into the range we currently see. From there, there was no way back. To keep pace, teams were forced to up their game, fielding 'ugly' cars if it meant they'd go rounds.
I work quite closely with Brendan Murry, who's been testing the Arias Hemi headed Chevy deal this year. First signs are that it'll have enough beans to keep with the big boys, but it's quite an aggressive setup. The new car itself does have a very period look, and Brendan's hope was to be running in the .70's, which is very do-able, but there's no argument that modern aero would help it go quicker and bring some stability.
Translating all that to the UK, with the topolino altered we wanted to keep it as period correct as possible. Largely this was achieved, but it makes the car quite tricky to drive. Weight distribution isn't optimal, and the steering input involved to keep it straight, in the first few hundred feet has been excessive on most full power runs. The other problem has been lift at the top end. From the 1/8th mile onwards it had a tendancy to lift the front end off the deck. This might sound great, and it makes good photos, but one day I'd have ended up parking it in the barrier, so it's been addressed and shouldn't be an issue any longer. This along with new shiny bits to go a bit quicker, and the street heads are being ditched, for some that work
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