Bedford 30th July -Instruction?
Discussion
Hi - Yep, there will be instruction available at Bedford. Circuit Days are running it I think & they have some good instructors. I think they only have 1 ARDS instructor on the day but you can book a slot at the drivers briefing. (poss before through the website)
Bedford is great for all standards imho, loads of run off with very little to make contact with if it goes wrong.
Bedford is great for all standards imho, loads of run off with very little to make contact with if it goes wrong.
scoTTy32 said:
Steve - I'll have a novice with me, can I book a slot for him for sometime in the morning please?
Rich - good luck & enjoy your day. I'll be there in my R26.R , come say hello if you see me.
Managed to book an hrs instruction, looking forward to Sat now. Rich - good luck & enjoy your day. I'll be there in my R26.R , come say hello if you see me.
Will pop over and say hello.
Cheers
Steve H said:
Rich, see you on Saturday then!
Scotty, you can book a slot when you arrive on the morning, the earlier you get there the better the choice!
Do you people realise that you are booking instruction with someone who has never had his arse anywhere near a racing car, who is having instruction himself in "how to instruct", and has slipped through the back door attempting to be a serious authority on circuit driving??? Scotty, you can book a slot when you arrive on the morning, the earlier you get there the better the choice!
ginettajoe said:
Do you people realise that you are booking instruction with someone who has never had his arse anywhere near a racing car, who is having instruction himself in "how to instruct", and has slipped through the back door attempting to be a serious authority on circuit driving???
If he holds a ARDS instructors licence & is being employed by registered TDO's I think his racing experience is largely irrelevant when it comes to instructing (mostly) novices on a track day?Any kind of motorsport is sooo expensive I can't imagine that every ARDS instructor races competitively or owns a race car?
scoTTy32 said:
If he holds a ARDS instructors licence & is being employed by registered TDO's I think his racing experience is largely irrelevant when it comes to instructing (mostly) novices on a track day?
Any kind of motorsport is sooo expensive I can't imagine that every ARDS instructor races competitively or owns a race car?
So a flying instructor shouldn't need any solo flying experience because he didn't have the money to fly, but because he flew passenger in his mates plane at no real cost, he should be allowed an instructor licence. You talk bAny kind of motorsport is sooo expensive I can't imagine that every ARDS instructor races competitively or owns a race car?
ks!!ginettajoe said:
Do you people realise that you are booking instruction with someone who has never had his arse anywhere near a racing car, who is having instruction himself in "how to instruct", and has slipped through the back door attempting to be a serious authority on circuit driving???
No but thanks for enlightening us and for your positive contribution. Was Steve Williams ever the no.1 golfer in the world?
ginettajoe said:
So a flying instructor shouldn't need any solo flying experience because he didn't have the money to fly, but because he flew passenger in his mates plane at no real cost, he should be allowed an instructor licence. You talk bks!!
I think it might be you talking boll*cks pal - Your analogy is somewhat flawed. The instructor IS qualified to DRIVE , he is furthermore qualified to INSTRUCT. ks!!The fact that he doesn't/hasn't/won't race is irrelvant to the requirements of him being qualified.
An instructor that does "race" will no doubt be able to impart "racecraft" knowledge from an experience POV but we are talking about circuit familiariastion, learning the basics & keeping novices (and other track dayers!) safe.
Good on Rich for being diligent enough to seek tuition - more should, and fair play to all the ARDS instructors that jump in with ANYONE who signs up for a session! I know a very nice chap who is a resident instructor down at Castle Combe (David Da Costa) - injured when giving a novice insturction!
Sideways Rich said:
No but thanks for enlightening us and for your positive contribution. Was Steve Williams ever the no.1 golfer in the world?
Did anyone ever die from injuries incurred playing golf??? Any coach in any sport is never the best at his chosen profession, but has the experience of that sport, enabling them to relate the dynamics/physics/actions/eye co-ordination/mental & physical requirements to his pupil in a way that pupil understands. Originally, to obtain an ARDS Instructor licence ( This requirement still stands, incidentally ) an applicant had to have raced competitively, and held, or had sufficient signatures to hold, an International 'C' race licence. He would then approach a race school and apply to be an instructor, he or she would then have to attend on various operational days, without pay, and sit in cars observing an experienced instructor, instruct people. Eventually, after several days, he would take the place of the instructor, and the experienced instructor would assess the ability of the applicant. Assuming the experienced instructor felt that the applicant had the basic ability to work as an instructor, he would be issued with an ARDS 'C' grade licence (ARDS = The Association of Racing Driver Schools). This enabled the newly licenced instructor to work on basic "experience" days at different circuits, and after 2 or 3 years, his or her licence would be upgraded to a 'B' grade. This enabled them to become more involved in more advanced operations, and would remain for another 2 or 3 years until eventually you would be granted an 'A' grade licence which allowed that instructor to work on trackdays, carry out on track assessments for race licence applicants, carry out morning briefings, and generally oversee the operation of a day, whether it be a corporate day, an experience day, or a trackday! The next, & highest grade of licence, is an 'S' grade, which really is exactly the same as an 'A' grade, but it allows the instructor the responsibility to sign and stamp a race licence application form, for novice race drivers.
I hope you can now recognise that there were, but currently not applied, strict criteria to be met by an applicant wishing to be "a race circuit instructor". Unfortunately, through the advent of "supercar days", "red Letter days" and the growth of the track day market, together with a decline in job vacancies within the normal employment environment, vacancies have been created for any Tom, Dick, Harry or Susan, dreaming about being "a race circuit instructor"!!, many of which would tip up and do the job just for the novelty value, so they could tell their mates they had been in a Ferarri all day!!!!!! The one guaranteed comment from every customer, on any Supercar day, will be ..... "you've got the best job in the world, how do you get into this??"
Unfortunately, many of those wanting to "live the Dream" are now doing so, and down the line it is affecting everyone other than the newly licenced, totally inexperienced instructor let loose on trackdays, and all the other type of days. The people having instruction don't have the required level of information to understand the physics of what the car is doing, the established and highly experienced instructors are loosing work because there are too many "instructors", and the schools and experience day operators are loosing out, because they are constantly being let down by incompetent "instructors".
Many of you may not be aware, but any instructor working on a trackday, needs to hold a minimum of an "A" grade or "S" grade licence. Those holding lesser grades "B" or "C" or restricted or probationary "C" are not covered by insurance under the ARDS requirement. Not a problem until someone is killed!!
Hopefully this will help you understand how this industry is in decline. When I, along with many others underwent a long process, together with expense, to become "a Race Circuit Instructor", and now have had the amount of work, together with the earning potential, eroded by people walking in to the job through the back door, you can perhaps understand our feelings. It will only change significantly, when someone close to you or others are killed, being instructed by some totally unqualified "instructor"! Where you have speed, race circuits & inexperience, it is a guaranteed certainty something will happen, not "if" but "when"!!!
HTH
Edited by ginettajoe on Thursday 28th July 15:39
Edited by ginettajoe on Thursday 28th July 16:15
scoTTy32 said:
I think it might be you talking boll*cks pal - Your analogy is somewhat flawed. The instructor IS qualified to DRIVE , he is furthermore qualified to INSTRUCT.
The fact that he doesn't/hasn't/won't race is irrelvant to the requirements of him being qualified.
An instructor that does "race" will no doubt be able to impart "racecraft" knowledge from an experience POV but we are talking about circuit familiariastion, learning the basics & keeping novices (and other track dayers!) safe.
Good on Rich for being diligent enough to seek tuition - more should, and fair play to all the ARDS instructors that jump in with ANYONE who signs up for a session! I know a very nice chap who is a resident instructor down at Castle Combe (David Da Costa) - injured when giving a novice insturction!
So just because someone is qualified to drive, they should be able to tip up and compete in a race anytime they desired! Fantastic, imagine a grid full of "qualified drivers" going for the first corner, .... absolute carnage!!!! I must request that all ARDS tests for novice race drivers are no longer required!!!!! If you sat with half the people we sit with, you would be hard pressed to imagine how they had actually arrived there on the day!!! But that isn't important, ..... they are qualified to drive! The fact that he doesn't/hasn't/won't race is irrelvant to the requirements of him being qualified.
An instructor that does "race" will no doubt be able to impart "racecraft" knowledge from an experience POV but we are talking about circuit familiariastion, learning the basics & keeping novices (and other track dayers!) safe.
Good on Rich for being diligent enough to seek tuition - more should, and fair play to all the ARDS instructors that jump in with ANYONE who signs up for a session! I know a very nice chap who is a resident instructor down at Castle Combe (David Da Costa) - injured when giving a novice insturction!
Edited by ginettajoe on Thursday 28th July 17:03
Hmmmm.
I didn't want to get to embroiled in all this to be honest but as some comments have been directed at me and some more implied I should make a couple of comments I think.
Regarding Howard's (Ginetta Joe's) original post, my race experience is on bikes not cars, equally dangerous and technical if not even more so but suffice to say I have lined up on a grid and waited for the flag. Since then I've spent over 15 years regularly trackdaying in cars and over 5 years regularly instructing.
I've notched up more track miles in the drivers seat than 99% of "proper" racers and amassed a huge amount of mileage in the passenger seat as I've progressed my abilities as an instructor; we all have to start somewhere but I did the driver experience days, Palmersport and all the rest before moving on to the more challenging (and interesting) work on trackdays. I also still regularly participate in my chosen track discipline and on average spend about a day each month driving my own cars on circuit.
Regarding his comments about ongoing instruction and taking the opportunity to learn from the people I work with, I would consider it to be a measure of how seriously I take the job that I do try to keep improving and it perhaps takes a degree of arrogance for anyone to assume that they have nothing left to learn.
I agree with a number of his comments in the later post regarding safety and I think that instructor assessments should be strict; this is a potentially dangerous job and it not an easy one. However, having done ten races (the minimum basic requirement for an ARDS instructors licence) is, in my view, no guide as to whether someone is capable of instructing on an experience day or trackday, or tutoring another racer.
There are now many ways of gaining appropriate track driving experience and having this experience is essential but the measure of the instructor to do the job is ultimately down to his ability in car, this can be checked by assessments and driver feedback, signatures on a race licence is a straight forward way of measuring one type of track experience but ultimately it means very little other than you managed to finish.
I didn't want to get to embroiled in all this to be honest but as some comments have been directed at me and some more implied I should make a couple of comments I think.
Regarding Howard's (Ginetta Joe's) original post, my race experience is on bikes not cars, equally dangerous and technical if not even more so but suffice to say I have lined up on a grid and waited for the flag. Since then I've spent over 15 years regularly trackdaying in cars and over 5 years regularly instructing.
I've notched up more track miles in the drivers seat than 99% of "proper" racers and amassed a huge amount of mileage in the passenger seat as I've progressed my abilities as an instructor; we all have to start somewhere but I did the driver experience days, Palmersport and all the rest before moving on to the more challenging (and interesting) work on trackdays. I also still regularly participate in my chosen track discipline and on average spend about a day each month driving my own cars on circuit.
Regarding his comments about ongoing instruction and taking the opportunity to learn from the people I work with, I would consider it to be a measure of how seriously I take the job that I do try to keep improving and it perhaps takes a degree of arrogance for anyone to assume that they have nothing left to learn.
I agree with a number of his comments in the later post regarding safety and I think that instructor assessments should be strict; this is a potentially dangerous job and it not an easy one. However, having done ten races (the minimum basic requirement for an ARDS instructors licence) is, in my view, no guide as to whether someone is capable of instructing on an experience day or trackday, or tutoring another racer.
There are now many ways of gaining appropriate track driving experience and having this experience is essential but the measure of the instructor to do the job is ultimately down to his ability in car, this can be checked by assessments and driver feedback, signatures on a race licence is a straight forward way of measuring one type of track experience but ultimately it means very little other than you managed to finish.
scoTTy32 said:
Yep - as long as they hold at least a National 'B' license.
No, they are qualified to drive, so a national 'B' licence is irrelevant, .... Do you assume the licence would come in a lucky bag, or do you realise they need a modicum of talent to achieve it??? Remember, numerous people fail their ARDS test ..... Why?, that shouldn't be the case, because they are qualified to drive!!!! I don't like repeating myself, but b
ks springs to mind!!!Edited by ginettajoe on Thursday 28th July 17:10
Steve H said:
Hmmmm.
I didn't want to get to embroiled in all this to be honest but as some comments have been directed at me and some more implied I should make a couple of comments I think.
Regarding Howard's (Ginetta Joe's) original post, my race experience is on bikes not cars, equally dangerous and technical if not even more so but suffice to say I have lined up on a grid and waited for the flag. Since then I've spent over 15 years regularly trackdaying in cars and over 5 years regularly instructing.
I've notched up more track miles in the drivers seat than 99% of "proper" racers and amassed a huge amount of mileage in the passenger seat as I've progressed my abilities as an instructor; we all have to start somewhere but I did the driver experience days, Palmersport and all the rest before moving on to the more challenging (and interesting) work on trackdays. I also still regularly participate in my chosen track discipline and on average spend about a day each month driving my own cars on circuit.
Regarding his comments about ongoing instruction and taking the opportunity to learn from the people I work with, I would consider it to be a measure of how seriously I take the job that I do try to keep improving and it perhaps takes a degree of arrogance for anyone to assume that they have nothing left to learn.
I agree with a number of his comments in the later post regarding safety and I think that instructor assessments should be strict; this is a potentially dangerous job and it not an easy one. However, having done ten races (the minimum basic requirement for an ARDS instructors licence) is, in my view, no guide as to whether someone is capable of instructing on an experience day or trackday, or tutoring another racer.
There are now many ways of gaining appropriate track driving experience and having this experience is essential but the measure of the instructor to do the job is ultimately down to his ability in car, this can be checked by assessments and driver feedback, signatures on a race licence is a straight forward way of measuring one type of track experience but ultimately it means very little other than you managed to finish.
I ride a 'bike & have done on and off for 48 years, so I have reasonable experience, but there is no way I am going to profess to have the ability to instruct someone on a 'bike. Now I have been involved in racing a car, one way or another for 41 years, I am in my 17th year of instructing, I have held a DVLA car licence for 46 years, and therefore feel I have the background to enable me to instruct in cars at whatever level! I didn't want to get to embroiled in all this to be honest but as some comments have been directed at me and some more implied I should make a couple of comments I think.
Regarding Howard's (Ginetta Joe's) original post, my race experience is on bikes not cars, equally dangerous and technical if not even more so but suffice to say I have lined up on a grid and waited for the flag. Since then I've spent over 15 years regularly trackdaying in cars and over 5 years regularly instructing.
I've notched up more track miles in the drivers seat than 99% of "proper" racers and amassed a huge amount of mileage in the passenger seat as I've progressed my abilities as an instructor; we all have to start somewhere but I did the driver experience days, Palmersport and all the rest before moving on to the more challenging (and interesting) work on trackdays. I also still regularly participate in my chosen track discipline and on average spend about a day each month driving my own cars on circuit.
Regarding his comments about ongoing instruction and taking the opportunity to learn from the people I work with, I would consider it to be a measure of how seriously I take the job that I do try to keep improving and it perhaps takes a degree of arrogance for anyone to assume that they have nothing left to learn.
I agree with a number of his comments in the later post regarding safety and I think that instructor assessments should be strict; this is a potentially dangerous job and it not an easy one. However, having done ten races (the minimum basic requirement for an ARDS instructors licence) is, in my view, no guide as to whether someone is capable of instructing on an experience day or trackday, or tutoring another racer.
There are now many ways of gaining appropriate track driving experience and having this experience is essential but the measure of the instructor to do the job is ultimately down to his ability in car, this can be checked by assessments and driver feedback, signatures on a race licence is a straight forward way of measuring one type of track experience but ultimately it means very little other than you managed to finish.
Now, Steve on the other hand has raced 'bikes for so long, has a full understanding of circuit techniques ...... why don't you instruct on 'bikes??????
Now I also understand that you were prepared to work for trackday organisers for a lesser rate than the experienced instructor would command, hence attracting the trackday work, but now you have realised how much it costs to travel to various venues, you find it hardly worthwhile ...... now there's a surprise, after setting a precedent!!!!
Did you have a problem with the barriers recently, whilst taking instruction on "how to become an instructor"????
Edited by ginettajoe on Thursday 28th July 18:04
Joe/Howard - What you have done on here is despicable. Attempting to dis-credit a fellow instructor on a public forum is pretty poor form in my book. I suspect that you will have done yourself no favours in trying to secure any paid for instruction by anyone reading this thread.
Qualified is qualified. End of.
Qualified is qualified. End of.
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