Trackday overtaking

[Taylor Phillips]

having just completed a trackday at Spa francochamps i found the drivers having a completely different mindset to mine.

The drivers briefing instructed the drivers that you must only overtake on the straights and can pass either side.

Each session seemed to have 40 - 50 cars on at once, now Spa is a big circuit but what this meant in reality was that the cars that got out first were catching you shortly after you completed the sightinglap. Their frustration at being slowed down by the tail (who were patiently waiting their chance to overtake) was to overtake on the bends. So picture this

You have a right then left chicane and you've plotted your route via the apex cones and you've committed your car to the speed and line to take you the fasted route when low and behold there's a car on your right who has outbraked you, now outbraking on the straight or into the leading edge of the bend is fine but to find yourself half way through with a car on your right in exactly the place you were going to drift into to take your line is wrong.

Consequently you have to lift or brake to avoid a collision.

By midway through the second session i had a bmw do this to me followed by a caterham which i didnt see, so i left the circuit and drove home

Ill be sticking to UK trackdays or UK organised trackdays from now on

[robinandcamera]

Perhaps it would have been worth mentioning to the organisers and they could have had a quiet word with the offenders? Doesn't sound like fun though.

[spyderman8]

I agree with Robin - unless you report it, the driver(s) concerned will just keep doing it. You paid as much as they did, you're just as entitled to be on the track as they are. This is one thing that shows how good a TDO is - how well they deal with numpties who ignore the rules.

[E36GUY]

robinandcamera said:

Perhaps it would have been worth mentioning to the organisers and they could have had a quiet word with the offenders? Doesn't sound like fun though.

This. Seems an expensive waste of money to have just left

[boxsey]

When 'European overtaking rules' come in to play you definitely have to have your wits about you on track. Those sort of overtakes do indeed happen more often. But even though they're against the rules, you can sort of plan for them by being extra vigilant because you know that an overtake can come from either side. I'm not condoning them, I'm just saying it's best to expect the unexpected when someone is close.

While 'British overtaking rules' might appear to be safer, the consequences of someone breaking a rule could be worse because we wouldn't expect someone to overtake in the braking zone on the wrong side. And just to show that it does happen in the UK, this was at Donington this week:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4kUekwDl2c&fea...

It didn't end up being that close because my mate in the camera car spotted the move before he was about to turn in. We had a word about the driver with TDO and found out that the driver was French!

[BaronVonVaderham]

Been to Spa for a trackday earlier this year and experienced very similar. It was brilliant, far more fun than processional uk trackdays, you just need to have your wits about you a tad more. Not condoning anything dangerous of course but the guidlines given to different ability groups were:

Slow goup - only overtake on straights.

Medium group - can over take on straights and in braking zones.

Fast group - pretty much free for all.

You left a very expensive trackday at one of the worlds finest circuits early because of that?

[playalistic]

Should have mentioned it to the TDO before scarpering!

[shim]

Sorry

[src1971]

I was at Oulton a couple of weeks ago and got overtaken by someone on the wrong side, in a braking zone and without consent! Fortunately I know what a mirror is for.

[PeterV]

boxsey said:

'British overtaking rules'

Having only done TD's in Holland and Belgium, I was looking forward to doing a TD in the UK.
However, if there is such a huge difference in overtaking rules, and it is so strict, it suddenly looks a lot less interesting.
Do all UK TDO's use similar strict rules, or are there that allow 'European style overtaking'? (if so, which?)

[m444ttb]

Reminds me of a Castle Combe action day! Only those 40 cars are on 1.85 miles of circuit!!

[boxsey]

PeterV said:

Having only done TD's in Holland and Belgium, I was looking forward to doing a TD in the UK.
However, if there is such a huge difference in overtaking rules, and it is so strict, it suddenly looks a lot less interesting.
Do all UK TDO's use similar strict rules, or are there that allow 'European style overtaking'? (if so, which?)

Most only allow overtaking on the left. I think RMA may be the one company that allow both sides - I'm sure someone who uses RMA will be able to confirm/correct this.

However, I don't see how being allowed to overtake only on one side makes a track day less interesting. Overtaking on a trackday is only a means to make progress on your lap. Overtaking as many people as possible is not really the main objective of the day....that's usually called racing.

[noneedtolift]

I guess its up to what you are used to. If you are not used to being overtaken under braking or in a corner, I can understand that this might be a bit off-putting. For me, it is part of the challenge & fun.

I do about 10-15 trackdays on the continent a year and think more accidents happen where people go off on their own rather than being punted off - although this inevetably happens, too.

[Sigmamark7]

Interesting topic with a variety of views. I came to "car" days from bikes where the rules are very different. On bike days, whilst there are plenty of road bikes being used, you are encouraged to fold your mirrors in and not use them. Track bikes clearly don't have mirrors, so you need to keep your wits about you, because whilst TDOs suggest you leave 6 feet between bikes, in practice we would often be touching as we went through corners. Overtaking is allowed on both sides and whilst it wasn't encouraged, it inevitably happened into, in the middle and on the exit of corners due to different levels of ability.
Consequently, car days seem very tame by comparison. Since we have mirrors, if you don't know where other cars are on the circuit, I suggest that you shouldn't be out there! This also means that the obvious differences in performance should also be apparent and fast cars or fast drivers in well set up cars can often get by at places mere mortals might think impossible. If everybody is aware of what is around them and we stick to the golden rule of looking after each other, I am happy to overtake and be overtaken under braking and in corners like the Craner Curves at Donington, but decent etiquette should be that you make it clear with your indicators that you are aware of the overtaking car.
I guess the final point is that these are track days and to my knowledge, nobody has ever won any prizes for being quick at a track day.

[PeterV]

boxsey said:

Most only allow overtaking on the left. I think RMA may be the one company that allow both sides - I'm sure someone who uses RMA will be able to confirm/correct this.

Thanks, I will keep this in mind.

boxsey said:

However, I don't see how being allowed to overtake only on one side makes a track day less interesting. Overtaking on a trackday is only a means to make progress on your lap. Overtaking as many people as possible is not really the main objective of the day....that's usually called racing.

It would be less interesting if it is only on straights, on a specific side and with consent.
The consent probably is the biggest spoiler, with only on straights as a good second

[V8mate]

PeterV said:

It would be less interesting if it is only on straights, on a specific side and with consent.
The consent probably is the biggest spoiler, with only on straights as a good second

When they say consent, they don't expect you to wait to receive a handwritten letter.

In most instances, it's simply the obviousness of the car in front realising you're there and moving to the right. Some of the TDOs who deal with the day-trip market might insist on the slower car showing a RH indicator, but the marshalls don't really care as long as everyone keeps their eyes open and drives courteously.

[shim]

V8mate said:

When they say consent, they don't expect you to wait to receive a handwritten letter.

In most instances, it's simply the obviousness of the car in front realising you're there and moving to the right. Some of the TDOs who deal with the day-trip market might insist on the slower car showing a RH indicator, but the marshalls don't really care as long as everyone keeps their eyes open and drives courteously.

you are spot on

we have to remember that 90% of calls come from Marshalls who are often oblivious or uninterested in the TDO rules or requirements out on the circuit.

at Spa in particular they seem to welcome spirited driving and overtaking on straights or bends as long ad it seems cars all are aware on the track at the time

ive had them clap me for a big half spin at Pouhon that i just half caught from being a disater for me and maybe one or rwo others.

As for fun, it depends on your risk profile. iit certainly is more exciting having cars come at you from both sides and approaching or in corners BUT if you are more risk adverse (like i probably am) the excitement can manifest itself more as TERROR

Edited by shim on Friday 17th August 15:25

[Steve H]

noneedtolift said:

I do about 10-15 trackdays on the continent a year and think more accidents happen where people go off on their own rather than being punted off - although this inevetably happens, too.

Whereas over here it's (almost) unheard of for one car to take another off. Got to say that if one car firing another off is an inevitable consequence of the wider rules then I'd prefer the UK version even with it's inherent restrictions.

[sjx]

shim said:

you are spot on

we have to remember that 90% of calls come from Marshalls who are often oblivious or uninterested in the TDO rules or requirements out on the circuit.

at Spa in particular they seem to welcome spirited driving and overtaking on straights or bends as long ad it seems cars all are aware on the track at the time

ive had them clap me for a big half spin at Pouhon that i just half caught from being a disater for me and maybe one or rwo others.

As for fun, it depends on your risk profile. iit certainly is more exciting having cars come at you from both sides and approaching or in corners BUT if you are more risk adverse (like i probably am) the excitement can manifest itself more as TERROR

Edited by shim on Friday 17th August 15:25

With the greatest of respect the Marshals are never 'oblivious' or 'uninterested' in the TDO rules or requirements.

[Old Red]

boxsey said:

When 'European overtaking rules' come in to play you definitely have to have your wits about you on track. Those sort of overtakes do indeed happen more often. But even though they're against the rules, you can sort of plan for them by being extra vigilant because you know that an overtake can come from either side. I'm not condoning them, I'm just saying it's best to expect the unexpected when someone is close.

While 'British overtaking rules' might appear to be safer, the consequences of someone breaking a rule could be worse because we wouldn't expect someone to overtake in the braking zone on the wrong side. And just to show that it does happen in the UK, this was at Donington this week:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4kUekwDl2c&fea...

It didn't end up being that close because my mate in the camera car spotted the move before he was about to turn in. We had a word about the driver with TDO and found out that the driver was French!

On Monday the TDO even took time to to get the French contingent to understand the overtaking requirement.

All this 'overtake' on either side in corners or under braking makes the ring's rules seem quite safe and strict!
If you want to outbrake people, dodge around in blind spots to compromise their line then having got some clear track, throw it into the gravel trying to take the old harpin with a 'lift and chuck' you obviously should be racing, and not on a trackday!