Road/track car - 944 v E36 V Elise

[SidewaysSi]

Looking for a hardcore road and occassional track car for up to £12k. Current choices are a tweaked 944/968, Lotus Elise or an E36 M3. Key factors are:

1. Reliability (not sure the Elise stands up)
2. Practicality i.e. being able to use it as a weekend car for nipping to the shops in the pouring rain, blasting into France for a week's holiday with the missus then being able on run on track.
3. Reasonable running costs
4. Great steering feel (is the E36 good enough?)
5. Predictability when driven at the limit
6. Lightweight (max of 1200Kg but ideally less)

Any other ideas?

[C43]

I would have thought it was a no brainer, Elise every time. As far as reliability is concerned whichever you use you will have to do some work on, if only discs and pads and the Elise should be cheeper IMO.

C43

[SidewaysSi]

I do love the Elise and think it looks fantastic but as my mechanical knowledge is close to zero and living in a flat, I don't really have space to tinker, I need it to be as close to "twist and go" as possible.

Also, Elises seem quite snappy? I would like something that can be driven on the throttle and not scare me too much! Not sure it will be as confidence inspiring on a wet October night driven through lots of standing water? Happy to be corrected though.

[iguana]

E36 for me, I've had 7 odd, had other stuff inc many 944s & caterham but just seem to end up back in track e36s with crackers for far less than yr budget far far less. 12k would Get something truely epic spec.

Ref point 4 no a 36 is a poor relation in steering feel, esp the 3.0 rack its horriblé, lesser 36 racks & evo are better & better again with proper track geo.

A 1200kg full cage M3 is posible pretty easily & sub that alsó, minés just over caged @ 1220 but still glass & all steel panels, 1150 easily doable its not a particually pleasant long distance road car Tho its pôs to put a bit of trim back in for long runs & i prefer to leave headlinings in, adds few kg but keeps them a Tad more civilised for road & less heat on summer track day

[iguana]

Sorry for odd symbols in above text, phone posting does odd things to it & i can never Work it out

[PK1970]

Never owned a Porsche, but I imagine getting a good 944 or 968, might be quite tricky given their age.

E36 M3 great choice, but will be harder on tyres and brakes than the fly weight Elise. Remember too that mkI and early mkII Elise's had no abs..... Not an issue if you're a driving hero, but I like the 2nd chance it gives you.....

[GC8]

<1,200 kilo 968s are few and far between too. A 944S2 is a better bet in every respect, including being lighter, but most have fallen over the edge of the precipice, on which the 968 is curently teetering.

[tertius]

They are quite different cars, I have previously owned a 944 and I have tracked an early Elise S2 for the last few years. Mine is a fairly high spec. track car, with just about every mod you can think of. However, I am now putting it up for sale.

Pros:

Lightweight and amazingly unbelievably low running costs
Absolutely brilliant on track, steering feel, acceleration, delicacy, everything is just fabulous
Standard servicing and parts are also v cheap

Cons:

Noisy and harsh on the road
Reliability has been a bit poor, though to be fair I expect heavy track use will find the weak spots in any car - e.g. I had a spate of alternator failures, which was eventually traced to the wiring loom, once that was sorted I had no further issues
Space - you really can't take much in the way of spares, and you definitely can't take wheels - in a 944/68 or E36/46 you can
Relatively expensive to buy - they do hold their value incredibly well

So I would say think about your usage and what you really want from the car and then decide.

[robinandcamera]

You could easily have a great s2000 and plenty of cash left for coilovers etc for that budget. Seems to meet all criteria bar the steering feel. They are only a shade over 1200kgs so it'll be easy to get it down to 1200 or just under.

Coming from a slightly biased s2000 owner

If I didn't have one of these I'd have an e36 though.

[custardkid]

I've now done 700 track only miles in my 3.0 M3, and only had a clutch and master cylinder go, not bad for a 145k miles base car.

for your road / weekend / track car i'd suggest:
-Coil over suspension with more camber, dramatically reduces front tyre wear.
-Harnesses and race seats to hold you in place on track (and reduces weight)
-remove rear seat trim and boot trim, but carpet the rear seat area
-leave the front trim, dash centre consol else it'll be too uncomfotable for weekends away
-cage optional, but safe and looks good

drive all three and see which you like, dont worry if the M£ feels a bit loose, probably means the trailing arm bushes and top mounts need changeing, <£200 job, although i'm not sure i fancy doing the trailing arms on the side of the road

this club sport build may give you some ideas:
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gAssing/topic.asp?h=0...

my more, hack it and track it build:
http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Custard

[chris7676]

I owned and tracked both the Elise S1 and E36 M3 at the same time.
I loved the lightness of the Louts and the on limit adjustability of the BMW.
Running costs were obviously a lot lower for the Elise being nearly half the weight.
Now I have a Boxster S which feels nimble and special and great at the limit, but unfortunately still quite costly to track. Btw, all have been reliable.

I have also driven the 944 on the road and it felt lots more special than the E36.
Still, I would go for the Boxster.

Edited by chris7676 on Tuesday 23 October 09:51

[nsa]

I'd suggest buying something that any mechanic can fix if something goes wrong because you'll end up taking it there for even minor jobs if you can't work under cover. For that, the E36 wins. You could probably buy two or three good track prepared cars for £12k.

There's always somebody else at the track with an E36 if you need parts/help, and if well driven they outperform lots of more exotic stuff.

I run a 924 with 968 running gear and have a garage. I don't follow my own advice because I love the Porsche.

[custardkid]

have a boxster S for road 3.0 M3 track, i'd prefer the e36 on track, it feels more robust

lots of cheap parts avilable for the e36 if you crash it or break it

[SidewaysSi]

Thanks all-seems the M3 has a strong following! Are there any specialist in the south with M power track car experience along the lines of EMC or RPM in the Porsche world?

Ideally looking for something that has already been prepared to save some cost - anyone know of anything suitable?

was originally thinking about the 944 as it seems more special?

[joe_90]

SidewaysSi said:

Thanks all-seems the M3 has a strong following! Are there any specialist in the south with M power track car experience along the lines of EMC or RPM in the Porsche world?

Ideally looking for something that has already been prepared to save some cost - anyone know of anything suitable?

was originally thinking about the 944 as it seems more special?

Reddish Motorsport in Bristol, James is excellent. http://www.redish-motorsport.com/

Have a look at the time lapse videos in customer cars.

Edited by joe_90 on Tuesday 23 October 20:32

[SidewaysSi]

Thanks-i guess the BMW would be a but cheaper to run than the Porsche? Not into the S2000- steering feel is a major consideration!

[chris7676]

custardkid said:

have a boxster S for road 3.0 M3 track, i'd prefer the e36 on track, it feels more robust

lots of cheap parts avilable for the e36 if you crash it or break it

interesting, in which way more robust?
agree that parts would be a bit cheaper.

[copperman05]

I have a 944 S2 and use it pretty much as you have described, on kw-v3 coilovers the car is just so sweet on track, a real joy to drive and still pretty impressive some 23 years after it was made.

For £12k you could buy a good base car and fit coilovers, refurb/upgrade brakes, fit bucket seats and still have a car that you can use every day, hoon on the track and take to south of france (as I did in 2011). Running costs are going to be more than the other two, but thats backed up by great build quality and reliability when properly maintained.

The M3 is going to be the quicker car in a straight line than a standard S2 or 220 Turbo (modified turbo's can be v quick) but for me the 944 makes up for this with great track poise, steering feedback and balance, its a car that Porsche got very right.

The Elise is also a great track car, but if its an all rounder you want, decent boot space, big petrol tank, easy cruising speeds and german reliability then the 944 S2/Turbo ticks the boxes. Its a hugely underrated car.








Edd

Edited by copperman05 on Wednesday 24th October 10:09

[bigunit00]

there are quite a few nice 944 cars already prepped for track use for sale on ph. One example is at RPM. It may seem a toppy price but I would say to build it from scratch you would easily be close to £20k+. Cheeky offer around £9k may nab it as its been for sale for a while.

http://www.rpmtechnik.co.uk/sales/stock-list/944-c...

[copperman05]

I've test driven that RPM car, its very tight and quick too, price used to be around £16k so someone could get a bit of a bargain, especially when you add the mods up!


Edd