Next track car advice - full on special or a race car?

[kent_phil]

Background to this is I had an old Audi S3 I spent a small fortune on turning into a useful track-car (and a fair amount of driver tuition) but doubled up as a run-around as well - after a couple of years I have come to the conclusion it had been a good intro to track days but I want to move onto something more focused and not compromised trying to cover too many uses.

So my thinking is one of the following :-

- Ariel atom or alike - think I need to try one on the track but concerned at the lack of roof

- Older ex-race car tin-top - thinking Seat Cupra cup car

- Build a track day special not requiring to be road legal and working off a better starting point than the S3 was

I think an ex-race car is really the way forwards and opens the door to maybe doing some races or hill-climbs. Any experience or thoughts?

Thanks,

Phil

[HustleRussell]

Caterham- surprisingly effective roof which will do the job provided you aren't fitting and removing it every 10 minutes. More forgiving handling-wise than the Atom, lighter and available from less than £10k.

P.S. another benefit is the fact you can hire a track-prepped Caterham for a trackday from book-a-track.

[GreigM]

Do you intend to trailer the car? If so, something open-top (radical, atom, caterfield) is a good way to go and the lack of roof doesn't really bother you once you're used to it - some motorbike wets and you'll learn to enjoy a wet track.

I'd recommend the westfield route - for a track car you'll find it difficult to match the pace for the cost.

[spyderman8]

I'd definitely go for a tin top ex-racer. Full cage, buckets, stripped out, race wheels, track tyres - after that its all down to driver skill. Plus it'll keep your hair dry!

[Irrotational]

Caterham (and/or 7 equivalent) - the cheapest and fastest way to go track-daying or racing (ignoring karts!!)

[kent_phil]

spyderman8 said:

I'd definitely go for a tin top ex-racer. Full cage, buckets, stripped out, race wheels, track tyres - after that its all down to driver skill. Plus it'll keep your hair dry!

This is where my head is at definitely, although not as many cars on the market as I would have expected. Need to keep researching and hopefully going to look at a Seat Cup car this weekend.

Been offered a Megane F1 230 as a starting point for a stripped out special which comes in surprising cost effective - not really a fan of Renaults but they did make a mean touring car so looking into it.

[DanGPR]

Have seen the odd race prepared e36 m3 come up for reasonable money recently.

There was (is?) one in the classifieds with AP brakes, coilovers etc.

[Mark Benson]

kent_phil said:

This is where my head is at definitely, although not as many cars on the market as I would have expected. Need to keep researching and hopefully going to look at a Seat Cup car this weekend.

Been offered a Megane F1 230 as a starting point for a stripped out special which comes in surprising cost effective - not really a fan of Renaults but they did make a mean touring car so looking into it.

Most cars come up for sale at the end of the season (September-ish), so there's less choice at this time of year. Also, some of the stuff for sale has been hanging around from the end of last season, make of that what you will.

If you're happy and prepared to trailer a car to the track, then a race prepared car is definitely a cost-effective way to do it - beware of ex-racers that cost a lot to maintain though - the Clio Cup we raced needed a fair few parts that were only available via Renaultsport at a considerable premium on the near identical road-car parts, a lot of manufacturer-backed race series cars suffer from that and when the series finishes, parts supply can be difficult.

Also remember that you can't 'just go for a drive' with a track-only car. I love the Ginetta on the track, but I miss my Exige some days for it's ability to make me smile at legal speeds on the road - a tow car doesn't give you any of that so take that into consideration - if you're used to being able to pop out when the weather's nice for a drive, a pure racer might not be for you. If you're on track 5 times a year, remember you'll only get to enjoy the car 5 days a year too.

[jackh707]

get caterham

[upsidedownmark]

kent_phil said:

Background to this is I had an old Audi S3 I spent a small fortune on turning into a useful track-car (and a fair amount of driver tuition) but doubled up as a run-around as well - after a couple of years I have come to the conclusion it had been a good intro to track days but I want to move onto something more focused and not compromised trying to cover too many uses.

So my thinking is one of the following :-

- Ariel atom or alike - think I need to try one on the track but concerned at the lack of roof

- Older ex-race car tin-top - thinking Seat Cupra cup car

- Build a track day special not requiring to be road legal and working off a better starting point than the S3 was

I think an ex-race car is really the way forwards and opens the door to maybe doing some races or hill-climbs. Any experience or thoughts?

Thanks,

Phil

My 2p:

Within the 'track' category, I'd think about what kind of driving 'experience' you prefer:

Atom is a little '911-esque'. It's dominated by the rear and moves around a lot (on track, at the limit - I'd expect it to be very planted at road speeds / regular driving) Quite busy, lot of steering with the throttle (big fun IMHO). Practicality is quite low if that's what bothers you about the roof, however it has proper harnesses and rollover protection, so probably safer than a lot of stuff if that's what's bothering you about the roof. Ooops, I went OT a bit!

Caterfields (would be where I put my money). More forgiving & conventional to drive, fair amount of scope to tweak the handling, and pretty accessible

Tin-top: You're probably looking at something front wheel drive, with a fair amount of 'stick'. I'd expect it to move around very little, and mostly off throttle, then manage traction on the way out. I'll be honest, I'm going on what I've observed, not driven anything of that ilk, but I'm pretty sure it'll be a very different experience to any of the RWD cars.

In a nutshell, it kinda depends what you want out of a track day car..

[Mark Benson]

upsidedownmark said:

Tin-top: You're probably looking at something front wheel drive, with a fair amount of 'stick'. I'd expect it to move around very little, and mostly off throttle, then manage traction on the way out. I'll be honest, I'm going on what I've observed, not driven anything of that ilk, but I'm pretty sure it'll be a very different experience to any of the RWD cars.

In many ways, the Clio Cup car we used to run was more fun than the Ginetta we now have, admittedly the sequential gearbox helped (a proper manual sequential never gets boring) but the handling was entertaining to say the least.

However if RWD is a must, there are always plenty of BMWs being prepped for track work, also 924/944s, MX5s etc etc.

For an all rounder, I'd say Elise/Exige - slightly more practical than a Caterfield, just as much fun (in a slightly different way - leery tailslides are not so easy, but a good, sorted one is a joy to drive).

[upsidedownmark]

Mark Benson said:

In many ways, the Clio Cup car we used to run was more fun than the Ginetta we now have, admittedly the sequential gearbox helped (a proper manual sequential never gets boring) but the handling was entertaining to say the least.

Not knocking the FWD option, nor suggesting it can't be entertaining, just that it will be different. It rather depends what the OP is trying to get from another car that the S3 isn't delivering..

[Lee b]

The race car route is a good way to go but if things go wrong with them be prepared to spend big to repair them, that's the down side.
A race car is built to run for selected hours on each engine gearbox etc and the rebuild costs can be expensive.

[Herman Toothrot]

Mark Benson said:

For an all rounder, I'd say Elise/Exige

this

[kent_phil]

upsidedownmark said:

Not knocking the FWD option, nor suggesting it can't be entertaining, just that it will be different. It rather depends what the OP is trying to get from another car that the S3 isn't delivering..

For me the goal is to get to something much much lighter and purely focused on track day driving - I had got the S3 to a very neutral set up with ARB's and coil-overs but the last few trips out were always cooking the brakes. Basically too much weight being carried as part of the compromise for using as a general purpose road car as well.

The roof bit is purely around the roll-over risk, maybe I'm being paranoid but I do like the idea of a full cage.

Thanks to everyone for their input here, going to try a hire day on track with a Caterham before make a decision. Looks like there are a few operations for trying a race Clio or Seat as well so time to have some fun test driving.

Cheers,

Phil

[Isonbusa]

Blag a ride in a bike engined seven or similar, great track weapons.

[upsidedownmark]

kent_phil said:

For me the goal is to get to something much much lighter and purely focused on track day driving - I had got the S3 to a very neutral set up with ARB's and coil-overs but the last few trips out were always cooking the brakes. Basically too much weight being carried as part of the compromise for using as a general purpose road car as well.

The roof bit is purely around the roll-over risk, maybe I'm being paranoid but I do like the idea of a full cage.

Thanks to everyone for their input here, going to try a hire day on track with a Caterham before make a decision. Looks like there are a few operations for trying a race Clio or Seat as well so time to have some fun test driving.

Cheers,

Phil

Guess any of the above will suit then - testing a few things sounds like a decent plan.

You can get caterhams and the ilk with varying degrees of roll cage, and there's reasonable protection built into the atom - there's a big metal hoop around the airbox. Not a full cage, but probably more robust than the S3's roof

[van cleef]

If it were me i would be heading towards an Exige and thats coming from a bike engined kit car owner.

Atom safe!

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[upsidedownmark]

van cleef said:

If it were me i would be heading towards an Exige and thats coming from a bike engined kit car owner.

Atom safe!

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Didn't say it was 'safe', just that it had rollover protection!

In fairness without knowing the nature of the accident it's hard to draw (useful) conclusions; you can come up with pictures of pretty much any car squashed into a ball - hit anything hard enough and all that. Interesting point about curved chassis members not being good engineering, but no, it's not likely to be the most crash-worthy thing.

[juansolo]

The best pure track cars to punt around a race track, from most perspectives, is a race car. After all, that's what they're built for.

I'd still go with a Caterham as the best all round trackday car there is. Stick a cage on it and you're golden.