Does too much power hinder your learning?
Discussion
Bit of a rambling post so bear with me!!
I have been thinking about buying a 911 996 turbo for a while now, but having driven a mates on track, and also been taken around the ring' in a mates E90 M3, I was aware that despite a huge power advantage, they really were not getting away from some very well driven track cars. The comedy moment was a fiat 500 coming sailing past us through the twisty sections!
Now I understand that a track biased car will always have a big advantage over a road car, but does having a lot of power make you a lazy driver?
I'm seriously considering an E46 M3 track car now instead of a 911 turbo for the road, and spend the change on instructirs on trackdays?
I have been thinking about buying a 911 996 turbo for a while now, but having driven a mates on track, and also been taken around the ring' in a mates E90 M3, I was aware that despite a huge power advantage, they really were not getting away from some very well driven track cars. The comedy moment was a fiat 500 coming sailing past us through the twisty sections!
Now I understand that a track biased car will always have a big advantage over a road car, but does having a lot of power make you a lazy driver?
I'm seriously considering an E46 M3 track car now instead of a 911 turbo for the road, and spend the change on instructirs on trackdays?
I'd agree big power can slow down the learning process but also even a low powered track car can hinder learning. Bit of a generalisation here but the key to learning is to get a car to the limits and then practice keeping it there.
A big power or very capable car can be inherently difficult for a novice to get to the limit safely. You only find it by going over it and this can be then be at high speed and/or with little warning. Similarly a track car with great suspension and sticky tyres can have the same issue.
Time and again I've seen people buy faster cars or upgrade suspension and tyres and never get near the limits.
If the objective is to learn then what you want is a low powered pretty standard road car (MX5, Elise etc.), with road tyres and suspension. The limits are lower and well telegraphed, more a wide band than a knife edge. Develop the skills which you can then take to the faster cars - don't upgrade until you can drive the doors off what you've got.
A big power or very capable car can be inherently difficult for a novice to get to the limit safely. You only find it by going over it and this can be then be at high speed and/or with little warning. Similarly a track car with great suspension and sticky tyres can have the same issue.
Time and again I've seen people buy faster cars or upgrade suspension and tyres and never get near the limits.
If the objective is to learn then what you want is a low powered pretty standard road car (MX5, Elise etc.), with road tyres and suspension. The limits are lower and well telegraphed, more a wide band than a knife edge. Develop the skills which you can then take to the faster cars - don't upgrade until you can drive the doors off what you've got.
Depends a bit on the person yes you can end up in a car you will never know the limits off however 996 Turbo as OP mentioned. A friend had one and use to regularly track day it, he thought and I agree a brilliant car for learning. On a small tight track you put it in third and then don't need to change gear for the entire track, all you do is steer accelerate and brake. No having to get gear changes right, no heel and toe it's simple and because its simple you can really focus on a particular aspect to driving I.e. lines and steering, do this for a while with out getting tempted to keep it putting down its 480bhp and with ESP on its a pussy cat. You can tell when you are doing something wrong as the ESP activates and keeps you out of trouble.
Personally I prefer less power for learning, then you can learn what the cars does on or near the limit. Having an Elise for a few years before buying the 211 definitely helped me get more out of the extra power and ability of the 211 for example.
Some of the quickest LOTRDC drivers can get 100% out of their cars as they started doing trackdays in the 118 bhp cars and learnt to wring their necks, before moving onto more powerful derivatives, iyswim
Some of the quickest LOTRDC drivers can get 100% out of their cars as they started doing trackdays in the 118 bhp cars and learnt to wring their necks, before moving onto more powerful derivatives, iyswim
Herman Toothrot said:
You can tell when you are doing something wrong as the ESP activates and keeps you out of trouble.
I can tell where you're coming from Herman and see it could be useful for an absolute novice. I still thing the learning experience would ultimately be compromised. You learn by getting the car to the limit and you only find that limit by going over it.In a low powered, road tyred car the limit is relatively low and the 'window of operation' around that limit is pretty wide.
In the 996 Turbo example the limit is going to be pretty high and the 'window' relatively narrow. The novice will either never get to the limit or risks going over it outside the 'window'. ESP may sort it out for them but what have they learned?
Edited by alicrozier on Wednesday 29th May 15:53
alicrozier said:
Herman Toothrot said:
You can tell when you are doing something wrong as the ESP activates and keeps you out of trouble.
I can tell where you're coming from Herman and see it could be useful for an absolute novice. I still thing the learning experience would ultimately be compromised. You learn by getting the car to the limit and you only find that limit by going over it.In a low powered, road tyred car the limit is relatively low and the 'window of operation' around that limit is pretty wide.
In the 996 Turbo example the limit is going to be pretty high and the 'window' relatively narrow. The novice will either never get to the limit or risks going over it outside the 'window'. ESP may sort it out for them but what have they learned?
Edited by alicrozier on Wednesday 29th May 15:53
At best you learn to drive around the threshold of the electronic intervention. Unless they're 'race' electronics you can probably go beyond that threshold effectively, and you can certainly go beyond that threshold and get it back - but with the electronics playing you'll never learn how. It's also possible to put yourself in a situation where the electronics run out of ideas, but by that point it's a far bigger 'event' than if you'd lost it earlier.
At worst, you simply learn nothing about sensing the car; to save typing I'm quoting an earlier post verbatim:
upsidedownmark said:
Take an example of two very similar cars: My older 986S with no electronics and a mates newer 987. Exiting a 3rd gear corner in the dry, if I pile on the power I get a bunch of understeer. More power more understeer.. so I manage that with throttle, and after a while learn to take a slightly different line (later apex) that lets me get a better exit.
I then went out in the 987. Same place, same corner, more electronics. He plants his right foot absurdly early, pre-apex. Car attempts to go straight on, he turns the wheel more. The electronics intervene, and quite subtly I admit - it trims back the power and (I think) dabbles with the inside rear brake, the car rotates as required, and he gets out the corner where he wanted to, most importantly/unfortunately none the wiser as to what just happened.
In the 986 turning the wheel would have made no difference, and faced with a grass bank he would have (presumably) realised the error of his ways and got out of the throttle. Over time you learn more subtlety, both in application (small input, small response), and importantly in sensing what's happening. Hopefully then you're starting to understand why the car's doing what it's doing, and everything becomes more harmonious, predictable, smooth, and as a result, fast.
Usually the 'fix' for just about any situation is to reverse the input you made 1/2 a second ago (the one that caused it) - if there's just you in the loop, it's pretty crystal what that input was. If there's a second brain playing, then the causality isn't (necessarily) that straightforward.
I then went out in the 987. Same place, same corner, more electronics. He plants his right foot absurdly early, pre-apex. Car attempts to go straight on, he turns the wheel more. The electronics intervene, and quite subtly I admit - it trims back the power and (I think) dabbles with the inside rear brake, the car rotates as required, and he gets out the corner where he wanted to, most importantly/unfortunately none the wiser as to what just happened.
In the 986 turning the wheel would have made no difference, and faced with a grass bank he would have (presumably) realised the error of his ways and got out of the throttle. Over time you learn more subtlety, both in application (small input, small response), and importantly in sensing what's happening. Hopefully then you're starting to understand why the car's doing what it's doing, and everything becomes more harmonious, predictable, smooth, and as a result, fast.
Usually the 'fix' for just about any situation is to reverse the input you made 1/2 a second ago (the one that caused it) - if there's just you in the loop, it's pretty crystal what that input was. If there's a second brain playing, then the causality isn't (necessarily) that straightforward.
Edited by upsidedownmark on Wednesday 29th May 18:56
In my case I'm hoping Caterham + Racing is the answer.
Caterham because it's low powered, it handles well, it has a very good grip/slip ratio and it's cheap to fix.
Caterham racing because only by driving the same car on the same track at the same time as other more skilled drivers could show me what the car is capable of.
How is it going? Well I finally won a race- on my 38th race start! That equates to over 100 hours of track time over three seasons, just to drive that car better than those drivers on that one occasion.
I believe that it takes an awfully long time to learn to extract 100% from even a low powered car (my car has 100bhp). An M3 is not a modesly powered car and you're still going to be worried about how much tyres and brakes are costing you, what it'd cost of you pranged it etc.
P.S. I will state with some confidence that every high powered modern road car I have encountered on track days has been driven in a 'point 'n' squirt' style. Power makes you believe that you're lapping fast.
Caterham because it's low powered, it handles well, it has a very good grip/slip ratio and it's cheap to fix.
Caterham racing because only by driving the same car on the same track at the same time as other more skilled drivers could show me what the car is capable of.
How is it going? Well I finally won a race- on my 38th race start! That equates to over 100 hours of track time over three seasons, just to drive that car better than those drivers on that one occasion.
I believe that it takes an awfully long time to learn to extract 100% from even a low powered car (my car has 100bhp). An M3 is not a modesly powered car and you're still going to be worried about how much tyres and brakes are costing you, what it'd cost of you pranged it etc.
P.S. I will state with some confidence that every high powered modern road car I have encountered on track days has been driven in a 'point 'n' squirt' style. Power makes you believe that you're lapping fast.
Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 29th May 19:09
I'm talking absolute novice, yes as I've seen many people even not 'that' novice trying to hard to keep the car right in the power band, attempting to dance on the pedals but then neglect the most basic things as they are over loading themselves with things to do, like correct lines, not winding on too much lock etc. Think someone once posted a Walshy video on here where he was telling novices to forget heel and toeing an Elise for example as bugger it up by braking and applying power not timing the clutch right you can basically drive in a straight line front wheels locked up, turning the steering wheel lock to lock. This I think explains many occurancess of 'brakes didn't work/ failed and so went straight on instead of turning' stories that I often read on forums and see on track days.
Generally I agree with everyone else saying low power for learning to drive on the limit, but you still have to learn the basics before you get to the limit and thats where something silly fast with nanny aids can come in as long as you appreciate those nanny aids show you are going wrong. Got to walk before you can run sort of thing.
Generally I agree with everyone else saying low power for learning to drive on the limit, but you still have to learn the basics before you get to the limit and thats where something silly fast with nanny aids can come in as long as you appreciate those nanny aids show you are going wrong. Got to walk before you can run sort of thing.
Edited by Herman Toothrot on Wednesday 29th May 23:22
As said, my trip to the Nurburgring was a real eye opener, I have always considered myself a fairly handy driver, and used to do a lot of karting, but I have been out of it for a while. Skill fade has no doubt set in, and I'm thinking perhaps a nice RWD trackday car & lots of practice/tuition is the way forward instead of blowing it all on a point & squirt road car?
What's the general consensus on a good power/weight combo for a first serious track car? Would an Mx5 be too underpowered for most UK circuits?
What's the general consensus on a good power/weight combo for a first serious track car? Would an Mx5 be too underpowered for most UK circuits?
RWD cossie wil said:
As said, my trip to the Nurburgring was a real eye opener, I have always considered myself a fairly handy driver, and used to do a lot of karting, but I have been out of it for a while. Skill fade has no doubt set in, and I'm thinking perhaps a nice RWD trackday car & lots of practice/tuition is the way forward instead of blowing it all on a point & squirt road car?
What's the general consensus on a good power/weight combo for a first serious track car? Would an Mx5 be too underpowered for most UK circuits?
The thing about the Nurburgring is that unless you know where you're going then it's not really the same as other track days where you can learn the track quickly then try and go faster. At the ring I'd fully expect to be overtaken by the Mk1 golf locals in any car, unless I knew the track better.What's the general consensus on a good power/weight combo for a first serious track car? Would an Mx5 be too underpowered for most UK circuits?
Andy Bell said:
HustleRussell said:
IWell I finally won a race- on my 38th race start!
Congratulations must be a great feeling.
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